Mormons aren't Christian?

[freelance lover]

8Ares8

Look at Job Satan defied God just because God loved him and he was the leader of worship in heaven. But he tried to overthrow God because he wanted God's power. God cast him into hell, but he still tempted people Like I said Job is an old testament book. The only reason satan seems to be more evil in the New Testament is because he is directly dealing with the son of God.

Also on that subject of God-like and Christ-like
God-like is wanting to become a god yourself while Christ like is to follow Jesus's example while he was here on earth. Not in any way trying to become a god

In the OT, the devil, or Ha Satan, is seen as a good angel of the Lord. Ha Satan literally translated to the accuser or adversary, and Satan was a member of God's inner circle. Ha Satan would go out into the world and bring evidence of man's sins to the Lord so that God could dole out proper punishment. Because of this job, Ha Satan is an adversary to man, but an ally to God. Wikipedia discusses this, and it's a pretty well known and well supported idea that can be found in many publications by scholars.

The NT has a completely different idea of Satan, and scholars aren't entirely sure where this comes from. Satan becomes an adversary to God and a tempter of humans. There's very little in the Bible to suggest that the devil tried to overthrow God and was cast out, most of these ideas come from medieval lore and have no scriptural basis.

I don't really see an issue with the God-like and Christ-like issue. Christ is God, after all.  

[freelance lover]

Zolof Keeper Of Souls

8Ares8

Maybe I'm kinda sketchy on that... Either he did go to hell, but he is allowed to test humanity or he was thrown out of heaven and the fallen angels were thrown into hell

My thought was that everyone was simply thrown out, not put in hell. We will see though, i'll put it on the list of things to ask God when i get to heaven.

The devil is foretold to be thrown into the fiery lake, or hell in Revelation. Of course, there's a lot of evidence to support that Revelation is an allegory for the fall or Rome so... there's that too xD  

[8Ares8]

freelance lover

8Ares8

Look at Job Satan defied God just because God loved him and he was the leader of worship in heaven. But he tried to overthrow God because he wanted God's power. God cast him into hell, but he still tempted people Like I said Job is an old testament book. The only reason satan seems to be more evil in the New Testament is because he is directly dealing with the son of God.

Also on that subject of God-like and Christ-like
God-like is wanting to become a god yourself while Christ like is to follow Jesus's example while he was here on earth. Not in any way trying to become a god

In the OT, the devil, or Ha Satan, is seen as a good angel of the Lord. Ha Satan literally translated to the accuser or adversary, and Satan was a member of God's inner circle. Ha Satan would go out into the world and bring evidence of man's sins to the Lord so that God could dole out proper punishment. Because of this job, Ha Satan is an adversary to man, but an ally to God. Wikipedia discusses this, and it's a pretty well known and well supported idea that can be found in many publications by scholars.

The NT has a completely different idea of Satan, and scholars aren't entirely sure where this comes from. Satan becomes an adversary to God and a tempter of humans. There's very little in the Bible to suggest that the devil tried to overthrow God and was cast out, most of these ideas come from medieval lore and have no scriptural basis.

I don't really see an issue with the God-like and Christ-like issue. Christ is God, after all.

Okay satan does tempt people. But once we die the bible says we are judged and satan can talk to God all he wants about things you have said, thought or done. But if you are saved by christ and forgiven of your sins God literally forgives you of all and you enter into heaven. If one isn't saved God will tell you be away from Me for I do not know you.


This Christ-like VS. God-like is simple
Christ like emulating Jesus here on earth
This God-like thing that this stemmed from is simply this If you wish to be like God as in perfect and sinless fine, but If you want to Replace God or Be a God that is a Sin  

[freelance lover]

8Ares8

freelance lover

8Ares8

Look at Job Satan defied God just because God loved him and he was the leader of worship in heaven. But he tried to overthrow God because he wanted God's power. God cast him into hell, but he still tempted people Like I said Job is an old testament book. The only reason satan seems to be more evil in the New Testament is because he is directly dealing with the son of God.

Also on that subject of God-like and Christ-like
God-like is wanting to become a god yourself while Christ like is to follow Jesus's example while he was here on earth. Not in any way trying to become a god

In the OT, the devil, or Ha Satan, is seen as a good angel of the Lord. Ha Satan literally translated to the accuser or adversary, and Satan was a member of God's inner circle. Ha Satan would go out into the world and bring evidence of man's sins to the Lord so that God could dole out proper punishment. Because of this job, Ha Satan is an adversary to man, but an ally to God. Wikipedia discusses this, and it's a pretty well known and well supported idea that can be found in many publications by scholars.

The NT has a completely different idea of Satan, and scholars aren't entirely sure where this comes from. Satan becomes an adversary to God and a tempter of humans. There's very little in the Bible to suggest that the devil tried to overthrow God and was cast out, most of these ideas come from medieval lore and have no scriptural basis.

I don't really see an issue with the God-like and Christ-like issue. Christ is God, after all.

Okay satan does tempt people. But once we die the bible says we are judged and satan can talk to God all he wants about things you have said, thought or done. But if you are saved by christ and forgiven of your sins God literally forgives you of all and you enter into heaven. If one isn't saved God will tell you be away from Me for I do not know you.


This Christ-like VS. God-like is simple
Christ like emulating Jesus here on earth
This God-like thing that this stemmed from is simply this If you wish to be like God as in perfect and sinless fine, but If you want to Replace God or Be a God that is a Sin

My point is there's a major discrepancy between the OT and NT about what role Satan plays, and there's not way to determine how this shift really happened. This makes it difficult to make any claim about Satan and his nature today, because we have very little scripture to tell us about it.

And I don't think the Mormons are trying to be a God. As a said, I think it's an issue of semantics more than anything. I think they are striving to be Christ/Jesus like, like any Christian- sinless, good, and benevolent. Yes, there is this idea of "becoming a god" after death with your own planet (which I'm still unsure about the accuracy of that anyway), but they're pretty clear that's through the grace and will of God. Also, the Bible is pretty lacking on scripture about what EXACTLY heaven is like.  

[8Ares8]

Okay so Satan then his "role" is the same and always has been the same since he fell. He tempts mankind shows God our faults.

He tempted Job in the Old Testament it was the only part of the old testament to literally deal with satan directly as he affects humanity.

His "change" from the old testament to the new testament is non-existent he still tempts mankind. The only difference is that it is more prevalent as he directly interacts with Christ on numerous occasions, he try as he might wanted to halt Christ's crucification. That is why he shows up so much in the first books of the New Testament. The other sections in which satan is spoken of is in revelations and the end times.

Yes satan was an angel higher than Michael, but he betrayed God and was cast out of heaven.

What I am trying to say is that satan's role throughout the entire bible stays the same. Only our perception and the situations change.  

[rmcdra]

Concerning multiple levels of heavens:

There's evidence of multiple heavens discussed in Talmud sources.

2 Corinthians 12:
"2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell."

John 14
2"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

Sethian cosmology talks of Levels of Heavens and Earths.

Ironically Ireneus also believed in Levels of Heaven

Against Heresies Book V, 36

Catholic documents talk of multiple levels of heaven that one can enter based on one's deeds
The . . . Council of Florence (1439) declared the souls of the perfectly just clearly behold the Triune and One God as he is, but corresponding to the difference of their merits, the one more perfectly than the other. The Council of Trent defined that the justified person merits an increase of the heavenly glory by good works. (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 479)

As for why Satan is described as evil in the NT there are a couple of Early Jewish texts hinting at this: The Apocalypse of Moses and 2 Enoch. Edit: It should be noted that these two texts describe and detail the Christian interpretation Fall and Satan's alleged betrayal mythos. These texts could be where this part of Christian oral tradition comes from.

Also

Different early Christians believed in a different Satans or devils. Valentianius's Satan was

Against Heresies, Book 1, 5.4

They further teach that the spirits of wickedness derived their origin from grief. Hence the devil, whom they also call Cosmocrator (the ruler of the world), and the demons, and the angels, and every wicked spiritual being that exists, found the source of their existence. They represent the Demiurge as being the son of that mother of theirs (Achamoth), and Cosmocrator as the creature of the Demiurge. Cosmocrator has knowledge of what is above himself, because he is a spirit of wickedness; but the Demiurge is ignorant of such things, inasmuch as he is merely animal. Their mother dwells in that place which is above the heavens, that is, in the intermediate abode; the Demiurge in the heavenly place, that is, in the hebdomad; but the Cosmocrator in this our world. The corporeal elements of the world, again, sprang, as we before remarked, from bewilderment and perplexity, as from a more ignoble source. Thus the earth arose from her state of stupor; water from the agitation caused by her fear; air from the consolidation of her grief; while fire, producing death and corruption, was inherent in all these elements, even as they teach that ignorance also lay concealed in these three passions.

With Christianity being a synthesis of and reaction to the various early Christian sects, its no surprise that we see an interpretation of Satan that is quite different from Judaism.  

[rmcdra]

The main doctrine that is unique to the LDS is Jesus and Satan being brothers. Now there is an early Christian text, the Gospel of Philip that would possibly support their stance but of course it is rejected by nearly all sects of Christianity.

Gospel of Philip
"Light and Darkness, life and death, right and left, are brothers of one another. They are inseparable. Because of this neither are the good good, nor evil evil, nor is life life, nor death death. For this reason each one will dissolve into its earliest origin. But those who are exalted above the world are indissoluble, eternal. "

The problem with Mormons using this text as justification is that what is being described here is good and evil in this world. Things on this world that are good can be used for evil and things that are typically are considered evil in this world can be used for good. All matter and material substances will pass away and perish. The only thing that is pure and good is that which resides in Heaven and is "incorruptible".  

[8Ares8]

rmcdra

Concerning multiple levels of heavens:

There's evidence of multiple heavens discussed in Talmud sources.

2 Corinthians 12:
"2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell."

John 14
2"In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

Sethian cosmology talks of Levels of Heavens and Earths.

Ironically Ireneus also believed in Levels of Heaven

Against Heresies Book V, 36

Catholic documents talk of multiple levels of heaven that one can enter based on one's deeds
The . . . Council of Florence (1439) declared the souls of the perfectly just clearly behold the Triune and One God as he is, but corresponding to the difference of their merits, the one more perfectly than the other. The Council of Trent defined that the justified person merits an increase of the heavenly glory by good works. (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 479)

As for why Satan is described as evil in the NT there are a couple of Early Jewish texts hinting at this: The Apocalypse of Moses and 2 Enoch. Edit: It should be noted that these two texts describe and detail the Christian interpretation Fall and Satan's alleged betrayal mythos. These texts could be where this part of Christian oral tradition comes from.

Also

Different early Christians believed in a different Satans or devils. Valentianius's Satan was

Against Heresies, Book 1, 5.4

They further teach that the spirits of wickedness derived their origin from grief. Hence the devil, whom they also call Cosmocrator (the ruler of the world), and the demons, and the angels, and every wicked spiritual being that exists, found the source of their existence. They represent the Demiurge as being the son of that mother of theirs (Achamoth), and Cosmocrator as the creature of the Demiurge. Cosmocrator has knowledge of what is above himself, because he is a spirit of wickedness; but the Demiurge is ignorant of such things, inasmuch as he is merely animal. Their mother dwells in that place which is above the heavens, that is, in the intermediate abode; the Demiurge in the heavenly place, that is, in the hebdomad; but the Cosmocrator in this our world. The corporeal elements of the world, again, sprang, as we before remarked, from bewilderment and perplexity, as from a more ignoble source. Thus the earth arose from her state of stupor; water from the agitation caused by her fear; air from the consolidation of her grief; while fire, producing death and corruption, was inherent in all these elements, even as they teach that ignorance also lay concealed in these three passions.

With Christianity being a synthesis of and reaction to the various early Christian sects, its no surprise that we see an interpretation of Satan that is quite different from Judaism.

Those heavens that paul is talking about are as follows 1st=The atmosphere around the earth AKA the sky 2nd= The sun moon and stars AKA space and the 3rd is the celestial heaven where God dwells with the faithful.
John 14:2 refers to the homes waiting in heaven for the saved the city of zion which all believers will live is 1000 miles by 1000 miles with 1000 levels as a size to imagine the immensity.
All else I honestly don't know of I just know REAL catholics are kinda nuts, but since I don't know much about that stuff I won't talk about it.  

[rmcdra]

8Ares8

Those heavens that paul is talking about are as follows 1st=The atmosphere around the earth AKA the sky 2nd= The sun moon and stars AKA space and the 3rd is the celestial heaven where God dwells with the faithful.

I'd say that it's describing a mystical possibly OBE but whatever. Next this interpretation ignores that the idea of multiple levels of heavens did exist in Judaism and even in some Gentile circles as Christianity was developing.

Quote:

John 14:2 refers to the homes waiting in heaven for the saved the city of zion which all believers will live is 1000 miles by 1000 miles with 1000 levels as a size to imagine the immensity.

And I guess all these homes are cookie-cutter boring suburban style houses while we're at speculating now rolleyes .

Quote:

All else I honestly don't know of I just know REAL catholics are kinda nuts, but since I don't know much about that stuff I won't talk about it.

Wow so that's how you respond. Whatever dude.  

[8Ares8]

rmcdra

8Ares8

Those heavens that paul is talking about are as follows 1st=The atmosphere around the earth AKA the sky 2nd= The sun moon and stars AKA space and the 3rd is the celestial heaven where God dwells with the faithful.

I'd say that it's describing a mystical possibly OBE but whatever. Next this interpretation ignores that the idea of multiple levels of heavens did exist in Judaism and even in some Gentile circles as Christianity was developing.

Quote:

John 14:2 refers to the homes waiting in heaven for the saved the city of zion which all believers will live is 1000 miles by 1000 miles with 1000 levels as a size to imagine the immensity.

And I guess all these homes are cookie-cutter boring suburban style houses while we're at speculating now rolleyes .

Quote:

All else I honestly don't know of I just know REAL catholics are kinda nuts, but since I don't know much about that stuff I won't talk about it.

Wow so that's how you respond. Whatever dude.

Well then tell med where it clearly speaks of people that go to the 1st and 2nd heavens

You have never read about the city in heaven? We all get a place in heaven who said cookie cutter?

I'm sorry I don't want to rave about something I don't know anything about jeese  

[rmcdra]

8Ares8

Well then tell med where it clearly speaks of people that go to the 1st and 2nd heavens

2 Enoch Chapters 3,4,5, & 6 describe the 1st Heaven. 2 Enoch 7 Describes the Second Heaven. The first and second Heavens are detailed in the Testament of Levi Chapter 1, starting at verse 10. The Talmud text, Hagiga Chapter 2 has a section that gives the name and brief description of each Heaven.

Quote:

rmcdra

8Ares8

John 14:2 refers to the homes waiting in heaven for the saved the city of zion which all believers will live is 1000 miles by 1000 miles with 1000 levels as a size to imagine the immensity.

And I guess all these homes are cookie-cutter boring suburban style houses while we're at speculating now rolleyes .

You have never read about the city in heaven? We all get a place in heaven who said cookie cutter?

Nvm. You just demonstrated already that there is a tradition of levels of heavens in your quote though I've never heard of Heaven having a 1000 layers before.

Quote:

I'm sorry I don't want to rave about something I don't know anything about jeese

Quote:

All else I honestly don't know of I just know REAL catholics are kinda nuts, but since I don't know much about that stuff I won't talk about it.

I was commenting about this. You label the "real ones" whatever that is, as "nuts". I hardly see believing in multiple heavens as "nuts" especially considering that there is a tradition pre-dating Catholicism of this concept.