Jumping back in

[Lord Maxdom]

zz1000zz

Lord Maxdom

zz1000zz

Lord Maxdom

As for the mention of Tarot cards, they always had a spiritual connection. In fact, Poker Cards were originally created by Gypsies so they can practice their beliefs without persecuting governments finding out, and it sort of developed into a very popular game.

This isn't true at all. Tarot cards existed for hundreds of years without any spiritual connection, and "Poker Cards" doesn't even make sense as a phrase. Poker is a game which uses cards, but the cards used are not specific to poker. Poker itself didn't come about until the 1700s, centuries after the cards used in it first existed. As for gypsies, they had no particular role in the creation of poker, tarot cards or modern playing cards.

I have no idea where you got these ideas from, but there is no truth in them.

You have your beliefs in the origin of the cards then, as I have mine.

This isn't a matter of "beliefs." Everything I said is based upon simple facts which are easy to verify. I have no problem with people holding different beliefs, and I don't think people need to argue points if they don't want to.

However, you cannot contradict basic facts and justify it by saying you're entitled to your own beliefs.

I find that when you're talking about something so far into the past, that it really does come down to belief. History is written by a person after all, and I'm not saying I question everything that ever happened. I'm merely stating, sometimes things can be questioned.  

[zz1000zz]

Lord Maxdom

zz1000zz

Lord Maxdom

zz1000zz

Lord Maxdom

As for the mention of Tarot cards, they always had a spiritual connection. In fact, Poker Cards were originally created by Gypsies so they can practice their beliefs without persecuting governments finding out, and it sort of developed into a very popular game.

This isn't true at all. Tarot cards existed for hundreds of years without any spiritual connection, and "Poker Cards" doesn't even make sense as a phrase. Poker is a game which uses cards, but the cards used are not specific to poker. Poker itself didn't come about until the 1700s, centuries after the cards used in it first existed. As for gypsies, they had no particular role in the creation of poker, tarot cards or modern playing cards.

I have no idea where you got these ideas from, but there is no truth in them.

You have your beliefs in the origin of the cards then, as I have mine.

This isn't a matter of "beliefs." Everything I said is based upon simple facts which are easy to verify. I have no problem with people holding different beliefs, and I don't think people need to argue points if they don't want to.

However, you cannot contradict basic facts and justify it by saying you're entitled to your own beliefs.

I find that when you're talking about something so far into the past, that it really does come down to belief. History is written by a person after all, and I'm not saying I question everything that ever happened. I'm merely stating, sometimes things can be questioned.

In no way does this justify what you said. In fact, it doesn't even make sense with regards to your comments. You claimed, as fact, a spiritual connection always existed with Tarot cards. You also claimed Gypsies used poker cards to practice their religion in secret. Neither of these claims has any evidence to support them.

Making general statements questioning vague things in no way justifies promoting ideas which have no basis.  

[Lord Maxdom]

I do admit I was quite tired when posting the original remark, which I should have clarified. I did mean to propose it as an idea, not a distinct fact. Which I didn't convey correctly, which is my fault, I can admit that.

However, I do find that in certain Wiccan communities these beliefs do exist, and certain people have passed down that belief within families, and small communities. Does this make it fact? I don't think so. Though, to me it does bring certain parts of history in question. My personal view, I find it quite believable that Gypsies that were of Pagan religions would pass off religious cards off as a simple game to hide themselves from governments that would persecute them.  

[Requiem Arc]

Lord Maxdom

I do admit I was quite tired when posting the original remark, which I should have clarified. I did mean to propose it as an idea, not a distinct fact. Which I didn't convey correctly, which is my fault, I can admit that.

However, I do find that in certain Wiccan communities these beliefs do exist, and certain people have passed down that belief within families, and small communities. Does this make it fact? I don't think so. Though, to me it does bring certain parts of history in question. My personal view, I find it quite believable that Gypsies that were of Pagan religions would pass off religious cards off as a simple game to hide themselves from governments that would persecute them.

I hate to just jump in here, but the bringing up of history is making me too curious.

While it does make sense that you would question certain parts of history based on these claims, it seems to me that said claims (made by some Wiccan communities) are a bit of a stretch as far as my historical knowledge of gypsies goes (which admittedly is not much). However, what I do know is that gypsies were very often roaming communities due to persecution. I have never read of Gypsies attempting to hide their beliefs out of fear. If anything, it was because the gypsies did not attempt to hide their beliefs that they were so persecuted.

On another note, I am curious as to why some Wiccan communities would make these claims (again, my knowledge of the history of Wiccan is admittedly not much). As far as I know however, Wiccan in America is a sort of remnant from early colonial times when many women (and some men) were herbalists and practiced medicine that was part physical part spiritual. These individuals were sometimes persecuted due to this, but over time the advent of medical discoveries eclipsed their importance community-wise. However, many of the beliefs these people had survived, changed over time, and, to the best of my knowledge, became the Wiccan of today. What their connection would be to Gypsies is something I can not figure out.  

[Lord Maxdom]

I'm not proposing that they would all do it, because as you said, the Gypsies did enjoy their "freedoms" a bit too much at times. With such a large and various group of people such as the Gypsies, since it isn't exactly, all Gypsies are like this. There would have been ones of most religions that existed, and I do feel Wicca would be a religion you could easily find in that group. Probably not like the original though, and mostly melded with other faiths of Europe that are older. My reasoning is mainly speculation, seeing that probably the ones who would hide their faith probably wouldn't be heard of, or only heard of if caught. It could be noticed that certain cards used for divination are remarkably similar to playing cards, cards such as are used in poker.

As for the communities, there is a group around here with a somewhat tie with a European community. I agree, most anything you'd find in America, in fact in most countries, are just revivals of the old religion and have no ties to actual Wicca. Still, there are the rarities that there are communities exist that due have ties into older covens/etc. And with my mention of questioning the origin of the cards, I do still question the origins of these groups even. Since I can't actually claim to know if they do have ties to older religions.

And no worries jumping in, if you want to discuss discuss.  

[Ravynne Sidhe]

`Though thy crest be shorn and shaven, thou,' I said, `art sure no craven.
Ghastly grim and ancient raven wandering from the nightly shore -

I'm going to point out that the word gypsy is considered an ethnic slur against the Rroma community so instead of calling them gypsies can you call them Rroma, since that's their proper name after all.

Also not all Rroma are pagan, many of them are actually Christian. Also Wicca is not a religion on can easily get into taking into account that with British Traditional Wicca, you have to be initiated. Which is a totally different topic to discuss.

Tell me what thy lordly name is on the Night's Plutonian shore!'
Quoth the raven, `Nevermore.'

 

[zz1000zz]

Ravynne Sidhe

I'm going to point out that the word gypsy is considered an ethnic slur against the Rroma community so instead of calling them gypsies can you call them Rroma, since that's their proper name after all.

There is a bit of humor in this. The Roma were a subset of the Romani people. It is only in the last few decades Roma started being used as a generic term for all Romani people. It certainly isn't "their proper name."

As for the difference between "Rroma" and "Roma," the double r has meaning in some Romani dialects as being distinct from a single r. That distinction doesn't exist in most other languages, so either spelling means the same thing. The United Nations, as well as most other organizations, uses "Romani" instead of "Rroma," so that's what I use.

It's also worth pointing out while "Gypsy" was used as a perjorative, that usage is not commonly accepted in the English language. Indeed, many Romani groups have Gypsy in their name. That, combined with the fact "gypsy" is used as a non-perjorative adjective for certain lifestyles, means there is no real reason for people to avoid using the word Gypsy.

Edit: And just one final nit. Gypsy was used to refer to many groups other than just the Romani. A Pavee married into my family, and I keep in touch with a Banjara I attended school with.  

[Ravynne Sidhe]

zz1000zz

Ravynne Sidhe

I'm going to point out that the word gypsy is considered an ethnic slur against the Rroma community so instead of calling them gypsies can you call them Rroma, since that's their proper name after all.

There is a bit of humor in this. The Roma were a subset of the Romani people. It is only in the last few decades Roma started being used as a generic term for all Romani people. It certainly isn't "their proper name."

As for the difference between "Rroma" and "Roma," the double r has meaning in some Romani dialects as being distinct from a single r. That distinction doesn't exist in most other languages, so either spelling means the same thing. The United Nations, as well as most other organizations, uses "Romani" instead of "Rroma," so that's what I use.

It's also worth pointing out while "Gypsy" was used as a perjorative, that usage is not commonly accepted in the English language. Indeed, many Romani groups have Gypsy in their name. That, combined with the fact "gypsy" is used as a non-perjorative adjective for certain lifestyles, means there is no real reason for people to avoid using the word Gypsy.

Edit: And just one final nit. Gypsy was used to refer to many groups other than just the Romani. A Pavee married into my family, and I keep in touch with a Banjara I attended school with.

`Though thy crest be shorn and shaven, thou,' I said, `art sure no craven.
Ghastly grim and ancient raven wandering from the nightly shore -

Tell that to a group of people from the Extended Discussion who maintain that Gypsy is a slur and shouldn't be used.

Tell me what thy lordly name is on the Night's Plutonian shore!'
Quoth the raven, `Nevermore.'

 

[The Amazing Ryuu]

Oh my have we gotten off topic. I think this is the point where I have to step in as an Authority Figure (TM) and say new thread or PM please. smile  

[Lord Maxdom]

I would agree, and I can say this is partially my fault. I concede my side, etc.

I actually never replied to the first post, not a good track record so far. sweatdrop

When I question my beliefs, which I do very often, I simply look back on what led me to said faith. I then think on it for a few days, and kind of just ponder. This has caused me to every now and then change my method of thought when it comes to some areas of life, but usually I go back to where my beliefs were before. I suppose since I do it so often I find it quite easy, at the same time I haven't really faced a crisis which shook my beliefs to such a degree, something more severe would probably effect me.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Requiem Arc

Fushigi na Butterfly

I'm doubting the validity of Christian beliefs. I'm doubting the existence of God. I'm doubting the divinity of Jesus. Why? I have no idea. It's like I woke up one morning and thought, "What if none of this is true?" and it kept festering inside me until I was forced to make peace with the doubt, because I couldn't prove it one way or the other. So now I'm on the fence.

Another part of the struggling comes from my lack of motivation to commit. I think if I were to just jump right in, feet first, and really be serious, I'd probably be okay. But I'm sort of okay where I am, and aside from missing the relationship I had with God, and the peace and comfort I felt from Him, I don't see any reason to change things, because ultimately, my lifestyle hasn't really changed all that much.

In respect to doubting the existence of God and the divinity of Jesus I would ask how your going about it, for instance, are you just stuck on the question "what if?" or, do you have concerns that you can research and try to solve logically?

It's sort of both. But all the research and logic I'd be able to find is ultimately based on faith. It almost seems silly to me to base my own faith on someone else's, you know? sweatdrop I want to be able to base my faith on my own experiences, and I have so many wonderful experiences with God, that generally, I find that I know He exists. So then it just becomes frustration about why, if He exists, and we had such a good relationship before, He's so far away from me now. When I try to reach out to Him, I feel nothing in return. So is this a change in me or a change in Him? Well, if God doesn't change, and I believe He doesn't, then it's a change in me. But all I changed was my frequency of acknowledging Him. So does that mean I just need to pay more attention to Him? But I need to feel something from Him in order to keep going, and when I try, I feel nothing. So that's basically what it boils down to: I'm dissatisfied with my relationship with God because I want more from Him. Perhaps that's selfish (actually, it is), but I don't feel Him doing anything to change it. So ... confused