A website I have a question about

[Calelith]

As you were, I was

I'm not sure where to post this, but I came across an Eclectic Neo-Pagan who claims to be Wiccan because she is apart of this school.

...I've read the website some and it claims Wicca is a Nature based religion.

As I am, you will be

 

[CilverCyanide]

Is the website mentioning any lineages? Are they allowing people to sign up under 18?
The headline reads Nature Based so I'm going to just put it in the same category as Witchschool. Eclectic Paganism under the pretense of "Wicca" to gain more students.

I wouldn't write it off immediately as being useless information. Some people could use it to get a good foundation for eclectic neopaganism. If you aren't going to, I might join and do a thread reviewing them the way I'm doing now with Witchschool.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

CilverCyanide

Eclectic Paganism under the pretense of "Wicca" to gain more students.

It may also be Wicca as defined by Priestesses such as Deborah Lipp and others, they do not see the use of the word Wicca or Wiccan by non-traditional groups in the same light as some here do.  

[CilverCyanide]

Brass Bell Doll

CilverCyanide

Eclectic Paganism under the pretense of "Wicca" to gain more students.

It may also be Wicca as defined by Priestesses such as Deborah Lipp and others, they do not see the use of the word Wicca or Wiccan by non-traditional groups in the same light as some here do.

Can you explain a bit further what that definition is?  

[Brass Bell Doll]

CilverCyanide

Brass Bell Doll

CilverCyanide

Eclectic Paganism under the pretense of "Wicca" to gain more students.

It may also be Wicca as defined by Priestesses such as Deborah Lipp and others, they do not see the use of the word Wicca or Wiccan by non-traditional groups in the same light as some here do.

Can you explain a bit further what that definition is?

Page 915 of the chat thread has the initial conversation.

Illiezeulette

maenad nuri

Illiezeulette

Ainwyn

Apparently I look androgynous enough today to have someone taking a survey on our campus ask me if I identify as male or female, while she didn't ask anyone else in our group (which included two trans people, one who has just started HRT). I'm not even wearing any kind of masculine clothing today. It's kind of exciting!

Also, just about to watch a "Wiccan documentary" in my class with a Neo-Gaianist professor. This should be interesting.

ETA: It's a documentary by the Farrars, good fun. I suppose better than some other things he could have shown, though we're on "THE BURNING TIMES!!!!!" right now. Any good, scholarly sources I can find on the internet on how eclectic neo-paganism isn't Wica? I don't have time to read books for this paper, but I'd like to counter some of the ideas of Wica my prof writes in his book.

Probably not, seeing as only a certain demographic within the larger BTW community holds this opinion. I mean, I could probably coax my Gardnerian High Priestess and her newly elevated High Priest partner to write about how eclectic neopagans can sometimes legitimately call themselves Wiccan (two-c's).

However, writing a paper about how eclectic neopaganism isn't once-c Wica is like writing a paper on how blue isn't red. It's just fact. There's no issue there.

Can we get bullet points at least on the first. Would love to see it. Cause I like that idea.

I mean, I am not sure if I can actually get them to write a paper on it, but I am familiar with the line of logic (but won't speak for them):
1. Societies create words
2. As societies change, so do the meanings of words as the new societies create new meanings for words.
3. As such, Wicca with two Cs no longer pertaining to only BTW "Wica"--the definition has changed to include so-called "solitaries" and whatnot.

I mean, this smells a bit of ad populum, but a lot of BTWs feel perfectly content just separating themselves from the watered-down masses by relabeling themselves. Others are a bit more...hostile...to the idea of relinquishing the original definition.

For comparison:

Gardnerian Third Degree and author Deborah Lipp definitely uses two-C Wicca to describe a variety of paths. In her book The Study of Witchcraft, Lipp explains that some BTWs don't consider non-BTWs as deserving of the title "Wicca." She disagrees with this stance and goes to explain what criteria earns the use of double-C Wicca. They are (and I will quote excerpts from each, but not the whole paragraphs):

1. Polarity. "Whatever they believe, however, they work with polarity--ritually and spiritually. However many deities a Wiccan may worship, there is always only one goddess and one god on the altar during ritual."

2. Immanence: "Not everyone will embrace every description, but a Wiccan will always have some creed that includes the idea that the gods/goddesses within us are our truest guides."

3. Nature: "They worship nature deities, almost always including Mother Earth in some form, and they recognize the sacredness of the physical, including the human body and sexuality."

4. Magic: "Not all Wiccans practice magic, but Wicca as a religion accepts that magic is real, something that people can do, and something that people are allowed or encouraged to do."

5. Circles and Quarters: "The ritual structure of Wicca can vary enormously, but a cast circle with four quarters, representing or corresponding to the four elements, is the fundamental format of Wiccan ritual."

(all from page 12).

Her book is definitely worth reading if you are interested in the Wicca definition debate. I effing love it.

Illiezeulette

For good measure, more Deborah Lipp. Part one of the same book is called "The Evolution of Modern Wicca." In it, she says: "Let's review: In the 1960s, Gardnerian Wicca arrived in the United States and met up with the emerging counter-culture. In the 1970s, it encountered feminism and the ecology movement. In the 1980s, we changed and grew in response to the festival movement and the publishing boom" (page 9. Emphasis is mine).

"I use the word 'described' in the title of this chapter [Modern Wicca Described] because 'defined' would ruffle too many feathers. As discussed above, modern Wicca has gone through massive changes during each decade of its existence in the United States" (page 11).

"There are some people who say that Wicca is whatever you say it is--that, if your practice is eclectic, it defies definition. I disagree with that. Wicca is a specific religion, even though it is an extremely open-ended one" (page 11).

And then she says a bit more and then goes on to give definitive characteristics, which I listed earlier.

Deborah Lipp is a Third Degree Gard.
To add, I feel most of this disagreement is an honest attempt by people to defend their oaths.

It seems that some members feel that locking down, tying up loose ends and controlling the actions of others through a hardline stance is their solution.

It seems other members feel that creating a distinction is a solution, allowing others to control their path while those who are part of the Traditional groups can identify and distinguish themselves.

Unfortunately there is no way to tell the actual number of Traditional Wiccans in either group- we cannot even go off the number of Lineaged Wiccans on Amber and Jet, since there are lineaged Wiccans there who do not accept Amber and Jet's definition as definitive outside of the forum.  

[Calelith]

CilverCyanide

Is the website mentioning any lineages? Are they allowing people to sign up under 18?

As you were, I was

From my skimming of the website I saw nothing of lineage of any of the High Priests or Priestesses. It also seems that anyone can at least join the website (I haven't tried with an age below 18, but I think I might to see) but the biggest issue I seem to have right now is it's a school you have to pay for to learn things. I thought you couldn't charge to teach Wicca and if they are legitimate, wouldn't that be against the Ardanes to charge to teach?

Edit:
Apparently you have to pay to become a member as well:
Make a financial commitment to our organization, so that we can provide community resources, programs, and services. For first level members, this is $10 per month or $120 per year.

As I am, you will be

 

[CilverCyanide]

Calelith

CilverCyanide

Is the website mentioning any lineages? Are they allowing people to sign up under 18?

As you were, I was

From my skimming of the website I saw nothing of lineage of any of the High Priests or Priestesses. It also seems that anyone can at least join the website (I haven't tried with an age below 18, but I think I might to see) but the biggest issue I seem to have right now is it's a school you have to pay for to learn things. I thought you couldn't charge to teach Wicca and if they are legitimate, wouldn't that be against the Ardanes to charge to teach?

Edit:
Apparently you have to pay to become a member as well:
Make a financial commitment to our organization, so that we can provide community resources, programs, and services. For first level members, this is $10 per month or $120 per year.

As I am, you will be

Ah. I haven't had the opportunity to actually attempt to join any of the courses but for 120$ I surely wouldn't. At least Witchschool allows you to get your first degree for free.
Chances are, the information would just be similar to what you can find in any New Age/"Wicca"/Neopagan themed book.
As for the Ardanes, I haven't really looked into BTW much. Just enough to know I wasn't Wiccan and that's that.

Bell- That's really interesting. I've never heard of an actual thought out plausible rebuttle to the idea that Wicca is Oathbound, Lineaged, etc.  

[Tikat]

Oh for ******** sake! Really? I mean, really?! Never a thought out argument against the bulling bullshit that passes for authority on the What Is Wicca debate?

There have been well worded, thoughtful responses to the Hard Gard line for YEARS. The problem is that half the time people can't tell the difference between Devil's Advocate being used as a teaching tool and a ******** DUCK.

All the legit criticism gets drowned out in a pissing contest of So and So High Snooty a** says blah blah blah. It's the difference between beating someone over the head and actually educating people. But hey- when you can yell loudly and often enough so that every uninitiated sap looking to fit in will mindlessly spout the same s**t as you- why would you ever bother actually trying to educate people?!

For CHRISTS SAKE PEOPLE! There was contention- thoughtful debate on the subject back when there was only one Kingstone who participated on the forums. Hell- at least she wasn't an abject a*****e to anyone who dared to disagree with the laundry list of what Wicca is and isn't. She actually encouraged thoughtful discussion rather than sicking a bombing fleet of unitiated parrots onto some poor kid who doesn't know their a** from a tea kettle.

I mean ********- sometimes people can even agree with the Hard Gard line and still get their a** reamed because if it isn't a Prommie who is commenting on what Wicca is, the odds that someone will actually read what is being said without assuming that it is some numb nut moron posting is slim to none- and it can take three pages for the rabid mouth frothing to stop long enough for the response of "I Agree With You" to even register.  

[Calelith]

Tikat

-------

As you were, I was

And your point is exactly?

As I am, you will be

 

[Brass Bell Doll]

Calelith

As you were, I was

I thought you couldn't charge to teach Wicca and if they are legitimate, wouldn't that be against the Ardanes to charge to teach?

Edit:
Apparently you have to pay to become a member as well:
Make a financial commitment to our organization, so that we can provide community resources, programs, and services. For first level members, this is $10 per month or $120 per year.

As I am, you will be

The Ardanes allude to not taking money for the use of the Art and it goes on to suggest that it may tempt people into using the Art for evil.

I also feel there is an attempt to distance itself from what was viewed as corruption in the Christian Church, mostly commenting on the abuse of indulgences.