Communication with deities

[Arden Deschain]

Brass Bell Doll

Would you be willing to describe this more fully?

Which part? Like I said, I don't (and didn't upon waking) remember the dream. So It's probably likely that I'm just crazy. but specifically, I remember thinking, with no other reason to think so, that the story of the rape of Persephone might be a little... skewed. and that it wasn't a rape in the sense that we think of it. after much research, I found that in ancient Greece, sometimes marriage was considered a rape. Hades didn't ravage Persephone. He doesn't even like her anymore because she's quite bitter about how things have turned out. He fell in love with another, Menthe.... But that didn't end well. But... I can't prove any of this. u_u' I think i'm just a dork.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Arden Deschain

Which part? Like I said, I don't (and didn't upon waking) remember the dream. So It's probably likely that I'm just crazy. but specifically, I remember thinking, with no other reason to think so, that the story of the rape of Persephone might be a little... skewed. and that it wasn't a rape in the sense that we think of it. after much research, I found that in ancient Greece, sometimes marriage was considered a rape. Hades didn't ravage Persephone. He doesn't even like her anymore because she's quite bitter about how things have turned out. He fell in love with another, Menthe.... But that didn't end well. But... I can't prove any of this. u_u' I think i'm just a dork.

I was hoping that you would explain your impressions about the Rape of Persephone.

I'm not personally familiar with any Greek Neo-pagans who feel that his abduction reflects sexual violation- but that may just be the kinds of people I associate with.

Could you explain why you feel that Persephone is bitter about their relationship?  

[Arden Deschain]

ah. well

Traditionally it's told that Hades saw persephone picking flowers, and was so taken by her that he came out of the earth in a fearsome chariot and carried her off. At some point she consumes the pom. seeds, and thus is stuck there. obv. it's more elaborate than that.
however. I got the Impression that Hades didn't really so much choose her, as accept her. It's not unknown that Zeus was quite... well he took who he wanted. But Persephone, being the daughter of Demeter (quite a fearsome goddess if you mess with her), and with Hera watching extra close, he had to put her somewhere he wouldn't be tempted. Hades needed/wanted a wife, and so Zeus presented him with persephone. Hades never raped/ravished her as some tellings suggest. After researching what I believed was the story at least... from what i'd been told (by some One...), I found that in ancient greece, marriage was considered a rape. And of course, I can't find the link again. -.- figures. I'm going crazy...

so now theres that.

Why do I think she's bitter about their marriage? Well. It's a Feeling i get from what's known about their marriage and... well... stuff I can't prove or document. They've never conceived a child. He's never even officially touched her, besides the dispute about the rape/ravish at the start. She's had a child though, by Zeus (nice guy, huh). Hades has a lover (or two, I can't recall her name, starts with an L) Menthe. Persephone finds out and she (or in some tellings, Demeter) turns her into the plant (you guessed it!) mint. Specifically, pennyroyal mint, which is used in funeral rites. Hades loved Menthe as he did not love persephone, even though she is his wife. He and Menthe were very in love, but... alas... and his poor lover was not even allowed a death, where he might see her again. No. she was doomed to exist as a plant (however... perhaps if, through generations, enough mint were to be ingested by mortals... she could return...). Deprived of his love, he decreed the inclusion of mint in funeral rites, that the underworld would be filled with the scent of it. Imagine your spouse wearing his lovers perfume. on purpose. How happy would you be?

I try to distinguish between what is reasonably provable, and what is... not... with color. dark red text here means that it is not provable and that, were you to take this interpretation elsewhere, you do so at your own risk. I do not assert anything in dark red as absolute truth, only as my truth until i can prove differently.

Hopefully that answered your question well enough.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Arden Deschain

I found that in ancient greece, marriage was considered a rape. And of course, I can't find the link again. -.- figures. I'm going crazy...

so now theres that.

I feel it is hurtful to confuse mental illness with an inability to find a link. Would you please refrain from using crazy like that?

I also feel there is confusion about the concepts of rape and marriage in Ancient Greece. Marriage by abduction as a social custom is found in many cultures and shouldn't be considered the same thing as rape.

I also feel it is worth noting that our concept of marriage for love, verse the views of the Ancient Greeks and Romans would be very different. The ancient Greeks and Romans viewed marriage as a fiscal contract with the benefit of continuing the family line- also a form of financial security.

Arden Deschain

Why do I think she's bitter about their marriage? Well. It's a Feeling i get from what's known about their marriage and... well... stuff I can't prove or document. They've never conceived a child. He's never even officially touched her, besides the dispute about the rape/ravish at the start. She's had a child though, by Zeus (nice guy, huh). Hades has a lover (or two, I can't recall her name, starts with an L) Menthe. Persephone finds out and she (or in some tellings, Demeter) turns her into the plant (you guessed it!) mint. Specifically, pennyroyal mint, which is used in funeral rites. Hades loved Menthe as he did not love persephone, even though she is his wife. He and Menthe were very in love, but... alas... and his poor lover was not even allowed a death, where he might see her again. No. she was doomed to exist as a plant (however... perhaps if, through generations, enough mint were to be ingested by mortals... she could return...). Deprived of his love, he decreed the inclusion of mint in funeral rites, that the underworld would be filled with the scent of it. Imagine your spouse wearing his lovers perfume. on purpose. How happy would you be?

I feel that this is a deep-seeded commentary on the nature of Marriage in Ancient Greece. According to most sources I am familiar with, Hades himself is considered to be infertile, as a reflection in social roles between the Gods and Mortals, his bride would be expected to bear children by another- and in the Orphic Hymns, she does.

I feel this is not a comment on her feelings toward Hades.
I think that these perceptions are a product of our time and culture, and not that of ancient Greece or Rome in the same way that what we would call *****, the ancient Greeks would have considered pederasty- a normal part of their society.

To add: I feel it is an error to assume my partner is addressed by masculine pronouns. If my partner was to take another lover and choose to wear her custom scent, I would be inclined to demand they share if it smelled nice on me as well.

Arden Deschain

I try to distinguish between what is reasonably provable, and what is... not... with color. dark red text here means that it is not provable and that, were you to take this interpretation elsewhere, you do so at your own risk. I do not assert anything in dark red as absolute truth, only as my truth until i can prove differently.

Hopefully that answered your question well enough.

I feel that some of the conclusions may be more influenced by our reaction to foreign cultures than by the gods themselves- given the information I mention above, do you think that the conclusions initially drawn are as likely as you initially felt they were?