Magical Ethics and the Internet

[LadyEladrin]

Jasta

It's a bit like drugs - you can choose not to talk about it at all, and have your kids learn about it from the dealer down the road, or you can discuss it responsibly and make sure a person knows as much as possible about it. Then if they do do something stupid, well, it's not because they were ignorant of the consequences, and it falls onto their own head.

I'm with Jasta on that. Education the best defense against stupidity and accidents. How does that saying go again? TO KNOW, to will, to dare and to keep silent. The first part of any magical practise is education. If you don't know what you're doing or what's going to happen, then you shouldnt' be messing around with it.  

[WebenBanu]

SlaineWildfire

The way I see it is that there is free will in this world, and therefore every individual is responsible for how he or she acts. The workers in factories who make bottles are not responsible for someone who goes out and turns that bottle into a Molotov Cocktail, and those of us who responsibly talk about magic for our own information and edification cannot be held responsible for those who use information to hurt others or themselves.

We're not talking about making magic here- magic has already been made. We're talking about ways of using it- and if those means of using it can be abused, and you place those instructions into the hands of someone who is not mature enough to handle it wisely, then you are responsible.

I don't believe that your analogy is quite accurate. Let's say instead that you've devised a means of using bottles which creates something which is basically an explosive. Perhaps you meant for it to be used in legitimate demolitions- perhaps you thought of it as a kind of firecracker. Whatever the case, if you thought that it was so cool that you posted step-by-step instructions on how to make one of these things on the internet, you would be responsible for placing that information into the hands of a terrorist if one were to come across your recipe and decide to use it to inflict harm on people. You would also be responsible for placing it in the hands of children, if some kid tried it out and blew off his hand or his friend's face.

What I am stressing here is that we should all consider very carefully the things which we make generally available, as a part of being an ethical person and a responsible member of our various global and spiritual communities.

Can we all be agreed here that there are people in the world who should not have unregulated access to magical instruction? That somewhere, there is a person whose maturity level and emotional or mental stability is simply not up to the task? I think that it's relatively safe to assume that we can agree on the existence of these people- I know that several of us have met them, in fact. They are a part of the general public, folks- and when you post something in a public forum (such as the internet) that means that anyone can access it. Knowing that, if you still decide to put up information which can be abused, you are an accessory to anything that follows because of your decision to act in that way.

SlaineWildfire

It is this view that leads me to believe that the internet is a place to gather information of all kinds and this information should not be censored. Just because I can discover how to make a bomb on the internet doesn't mean I should run right out and make one, nor does it mean that the person who put the information online is responsible if I go out and make one.

Actually, it does mean that the person who posted that information is liable. It seems easy to lose a sense of personal involvement with whatever happens on the internet, because folks can't see the people on the other end of the line or the things which take place because of their involvement. But our involvement is, nonetheless, there.-_- If you post sensitive and potentially dangerous information (such as magical instruction) in a place where it can be publicly viewed, knowing that there are people out there who are not mature or stable enough to be trusted with this information, how is it that you are not involved when those very people come to pick up the information which you placed there, knowing that they could do so? You are involved. You are responsible for your own action in providing that information, and by extension you share partial responsibility for whatever those people decide to do with the information which you handed over to them. How would you remove yourself from that scenario?

SlaineWildfire

The internet exists to put information in people's hands that they otherwise would not have had. It does not exist to decide who gets what information, when, and under what circumstances.

The internet was created for global exchange of information, but people are still accountable for what they chose to share, how, and when. There is nothing which will remove that from the exchange.^_^  

[WebenBanu]

Jasta

I have to say, these days, the internet is so chocabloc with information and misinformation, that thousands of people daily probably get their hands on magickal techniques that they don't need and shouldn't have... And while we shouldn't contribute to that, we should also bear in mind that if they don't find it discussed responsibly here, they'll find it shoved elsewhere, with no explanation or idea of the potential of that technique.

It's a bit like drugs - you can choose not to talk about it at all, and have your kids learn about it from the dealer down the road, or you can discuss it responsibly and make sure a person knows as much as possible about it. Then if they do do something stupid, well, it's not because they were ignorant of the consequences, and it falls onto their own head.

That's a very good point, and here's one solution at which we have arrived in a similar discussion on another guild- let's say that we restrict public internet discussions to general and vague potentials and drawbacks of various magical techniques, and especially the wisdom and ethics which go into their application. Let's really stress the responsible discussion part of it, you know?

Then, if a person feels that it is appropriate- if you feel that you really know someone well and you want to share more explicit instruction with them- send further discussion via PMs or emails, just with that one person. Or you can share a recommended reading list. *shrugs* It's certainly not a fool-proof system, and personal responsibility is still incurred for the person with whom you have chosen to share your information- but the margin of error is dramatically decreased. At least you know who is supposed to be on the other end of the line.^_^  

[WebenBanu]

Starlock

As with all things, they should bear in mind how their actions can influence others... that to me is the larger part of taking responsibility that people seem to miss noting.

Agreed. 3nodding

inblood_isoak

I usaully only answer questions, give opinions, share something funny, or type something up that people seem to be confused by. I never post my magickal name or what spells I've done; I know alot of people like to brag but I believe that takes the spirituality out of it and it's also not polite in some (and many) scenerios. smile

*nods* I do feel that in some social circles magic is overrated- it's a divine and precious gift, but it's certainly not the end-all and be-all of being Pagan. It's a religious science, in my opinion- I sometimes refer to it as "applied religion"- and within the context of my own religious tradition I certainly believe in its use as an adjunct to and enrichment of routine spiritual practice. But I don't think that it would really be appropriate if it were to overshadow those underlying spiritual principles.

However, magic in its place is a useful and wonderful thing- and it should be treated with respect and responsibility.^_~ It can be a difficult thing for me to decide what is appropriate to share and what is not- I'm starting to get a better feel for it through having these conversations with the folks in the guilds, though.^_^ But the fact remains that I am woefully unimaginative when it comes to ways of abusing magical techniques. I still worry that I might answer a question or type up an explanation with all good intentions- only to have it backfire on myself and the person with whom I'm sharing, due to my lack of experience in magical misapplication and the fact that I don't really know the person with whom I am speaking.-_- So I think that, for now, I'll just refrain from giving explicit instruction until I've consulted my conscience, and do so only through private messages and after I feel that I know a person pretty well.  

[MST3Kakalina]

WebenBanu

It's exactly the same, actually.^_^ Magic is just as effective as a pipe bomb, and just as easily abused. If someone isn't skilled at magic then that doesn't mean that they're incapable of it- it just means that they can't control it very well, and that simply makes it all the more dangerous. Spells can misfire and backfire just like guns, can miss their mark, and can be used perfectly well but for unethical ends. If you place the weapon in someone's hands- whatever it is, and whatever your intentions were when you did so- you are responsible for your choice and your action in doing so. I'm afraid there's just no way out of it.

then this is the crux of our disagreement. i hate to take the relativism route, but it seems we just have different ideas about how magic works and what it takes to use it. perhaps this is because i am cynical when it comes to the occult, as i've seen very little (ie, nothing) in terms of incompetent spellcasting coming to fruition. so i respectfully agree to disagree. biggrin

even given your conception--that someone unskilled in magic isn't necessarily incapable and that it has tangible effects on things--i still hold that it comes down to personal responsibility. if you're going to magically harm/shoot someone, is the spell-provider's/gun dealer's fault you did it? or should you have learned to deal with your rage in a mature manner? the answer is clear to me.

to use less violent examples: if someone sells you paint, are they responsible for you defacing public property? if someone sells a teenager a bottle of shaving cream, are they responsible for the resulting death from the teen's huffing? bottom line is, i'm very big on personal accountibility.

again, with magic: i see it as a simple process. not EASY, but simple.

1. raise energy
2. direct it towards a purpose through whatever symbolism necessary

(this is assuming we're not talking about spells that are more psychology, ie spells to change your behaviour in some way)

from what i've seen in shoddy spellcasting (of course, this is going off of my own experiences in magic and observing one other person), you're most likely to trip up at step number one. you can use a spell you write yourself, you can use something from $RW or something you found on teh intarwebs, but if you don't raise the energy, nothing's going to happen.

if you make it past step one successfully, though, all that's left is the symbolism. as long as you can make it mean something to you, at least temporarily, then you're good to go.

what does this have to do with personal accountability? simply that, spells you find on the internet are nothing more than someone's personal symbols they used to accomplish a certain task. if you are that intent on doing something less-than-right, you will come up with your own symbols if you can't find any. in other words, it's like handing a rifle to someone who already has a sizeable gun collection.


again, i've never had experience with a spell "misfiring," so to speak, so i don't know what to say on that. personally, i think a spell misfiring falls under the "random chance" category and so is removed from the discussion of ethics.

wow, i didn't mean to write a novel! this is an interesting discussion but i feel that by this point i've pretty much summed up how i feel. i don't think i'll be posting much more but i'll keep reading. 3nodding  

[SlaineWildfire]

Quote:

Can we all be agreed here that there are people in the world who should not have unregulated access to magical instruction? That somewhere, there is a person whose maturity level and emotional or mental stability is simply not up to the task? I think that it's relatively safe to assume that we can agree on the existence of these people- I know that several of us have met them, in fact. They are a part of the general public, folks- and when you post something in a public forum (such as the internet) that means that anyone can access it. Knowing that, if you still decide to put up information which can be abused, you are an accessory to anything that follows because of your decision to act in that way.

*shrugs* That depends.

For one, I don't believe that people are inherently evil, as I don't believe in evil. Therefore, I believe that everyone has the potential to do wonderful things, so I'm not going to restrict another's behavior based on my personal feelings.

For two, if we're talking about morons, then I don't believe any degree of powerful magic will work in any meaningful way for someone who simply does not have the mental capabilities to do certain things.

For three, I disagree whole-heartedly. Just because I put up my opinion on the internet doesn't mean that I'm responsible for your misinterpretation of that opinion, nor does it mean that I'm responsible for your personal feelings about my opinions.

Magic is a tool, just like any other. In the hands of the right person, it can do wonderful things. In the hands of the wrong, it can backfire and cause pain. But so can a pen or a car or anything else for that matter. Just because a tool is used inappropriately doesn't mean we should remove them from the hands of all people out of fear.

I'm not going to worry myself sick over the actions of every Merlin-wannabe or Willow-Witch with access to the internet. If I feel I have reliable information to share, I'm going to share it. Now, I personally will always put a disclaimer on my own personal magic that I put on the internet if I feel it could be dangerous, but I'm still going to post it. People still buy and smoke cigarettes of their own free will. No matter how hard you want to punish the people who make or sell the cigarettes, free will still comes into play.  

[WebenBanu]

SlaineWildfire

For one, I don't believe that people are inherently evil, as I don't believe in evil. Therefore, I believe that everyone has the potential to do wonderful things, so I'm not going to restrict another's behavior based on my personal feelings.

I don't believe that humans are inherently evil, either- I never said anything about people being evil. So we at least agree on one point.^_^ But just because people aren't inherently evil doesn't mean that they have a 100% developed sense of maturity or ethics right from the start. It's not fair to them or to anyone who lives around them to assume that they are. I'm not asking you to restrict other people's behavior- I'm suggesting that folks behave responsibly on their own end of things.

SlaineWildfire

For two, if we're talking about morons, then I don't believe any degree of powerful magic will work in any meaningful way for someone who simply does not have the mental capabilities to do certain things.

Simply because someone is immature doesn't mean that they're a moron, and simply because someone is immature and/or has ideas of ethics which don't mesh well with a healthy, harmonious relationship with the rest of the world doesn't render them incapable of magic.

SlaineWildfire

For three, I disagree whole-heartedly. Just because I put up my opinion on the internet doesn't mean that I'm responsible for your misinterpretation of that opinion, nor does it mean that I'm responsible for your personal feelings about my opinions.

We're not talking about "opinions," here- we're talking about magical instruction. If you put up instructions on how to perform a skill, when that skill is something which can be used to cause injury, and you know that the set of people to whom you are handing the skill over is likely to include the kinds of folks who will do just that, then you are responsible for your action in doing so. For that matter, you're responsible anyway- for any of your actions, regardless of the outcome. I'm simply drawing attention to the results of this particular kind of action.^_^

SlaineWildfire

Magic is a tool, just like any other. In the hands of the right person, it can do wonderful things. In the hands of the wrong, it can backfire and cause pain. But so can a pen or a car or anything else for that matter. Just because a tool is used inappropriately doesn't mean we should remove them from the hands of all people out of fear.

Yes, magic is a tool- notice how I said in my original post that these sorts of ethics apply to any sort of skill? Skills of all kinds are "tools," and btw personal responsibility also plays into more physical tools, as well. Funny how we just keep on being responsible for our actions, isn't it?^_^

However, I'm not asking you to remove anything from the hands of people. I'm saying that the responsible thing to do is not to place a potential weapon into the hands of someone who is not mature or stable (or skilled, for that matter) enough to avoid harming themselves or others with it. Would you say that five year olds have the right to bear arms, so we should go hand them out at pre-schools and day care centers? Should seriously suicidal teens be handed knives while they're angsting? Should we personally supply terrorists with explosives, thinking that they would probably get them anyway? It's the same thing.

SlaineWildfire

I'm not going to worry myself sick over the actions of every Merlin-wannabe or Willow-Witch with access to the internet. If I feel I have reliable information to share, I'm going to share it. Now, I personally will always put a disclaimer on my own personal magic that I put on the internet if I feel it could be dangerous, but I'm still going to post it. People still buy and smoke cigarettes of their own free will. No matter how hard you want to punish the people who make or sell the cigarettes, free will still comes into play.

Again, I'm not asking you to worry yourself sick over the actions of other people. Behave responsibly, and you won't have to anyway.^_^

I've only the time for one post tonight folks, so be well!^_^  

[SlaineWildfire]

But that's ridiculous. You can't assume the intentions of others on the internet, and nor should you. Why in the world would you ever edit yourself just because of what other people may or may not do? Ridiculous. Don't stress about others. Be yourself, and do what you want to do, and I'll do the same.  

[TeaDidikai]

SlaineWildfire

But that's ridiculous. You can't assume the intentions of others on the internet, and nor should you. Why in the world would you ever edit yourself just because of what other people may or may not do? Ridiculous. Don't stress about others. Be yourself, and do what you want to do, and I'll do the same.

By that reason thirteen year old girls should hand over their address, phone number and personal schedule to any 54 year old rapist that asks for it over AIM.