Strange experience?

[maenad nuri]

demisara

maenad nuri

Fiddlers Green

maenad nuri

(Also, it's CLASS NOT RACE, is a classic derail. We exist in multiple modes of privilege and isms. The best way to describe this is in a system called kyriarchy.)

Are establishing that there is no class based privilege?

Nope. There's plenty of class-based privilege. Tons of it. And it's important. It's just that in dicussions about race, saying that "it's not race but class" or what was said here, that "Race isn't a problem anymore, Classism is the problem" is a derail.

A massive one.

I agree with you, but we shouldn't ignore classism in the discussion of priveledge. Class is quickly becoming a more reliable signifier in issues such as health and sustained stress levels than race in the States. They're frequently both symptoms of a common systemic cause.

...what tangent?

Yes, they are. But in this particular discussion, the primary discussion was of race. Trying to say that racism isn't a problem because class is does nothing for the discussion at hand, and only derails.

Classism and class issues are a problem, of course, but was not relevant at the time they were invoked.  

[Fiddlers Green]

demisara

Race is a cultural concept, not a biological one. The color of a person's skin can tell you absolutely nothing about that person. The closes grouping you'll find in legit social science is the ethnic group, which is more culturally based than genetically.

Also, I'd like to note that just because racism is not expressed in hatred, that doesn't make it less harmful. "Common sense" judgments about any person before you meet them skew your behavior toward them and vice versa. Institutional violence can be far more harmful than punching someone.

Thank you. 3nodding
I do wonder, however, how well one can apply that to meta-genetic groups?
As for common sense judgements towards people, the only one I run with is that they, as a person, may like to be treated with the same respect that I, as a person, would desire.

Nuri, I see what you are getting at.
I remain cautious that too much lampshading occurs, on both ends, by throwing up the other set of privilege to serve as a smokescreen... but in the end, I see them as very closely related, in so much that one's development can oft be correlated with the other. Now, not to get into chicken and egg with this, as it is, very much, a tangent, but I'm not sure the two can be completely excised from each other.
As I observe, on a greatly exaggerated scale, It would be like having a discussion about the the Holocaust but only one of the victims groups thereof. confused  

[Recursive Paradox]

@Fiddler:

I really think the only complaint any of us had regarding Orchid's bringing up of her own experiences with privilege was her implication that her own experiences gave her an explicit and perfect understanding of privilege and oppression in any other context, and allowed her to dismiss the idea that she herself was privileged in other contexts.

This is, obviously, completely untrue. Because one may have privilege in one area and not in another. And having experienced oppression does not mean that one can't or even isn't oppressing at that very moment. This comes up fairly often with the cisGLB group vs. the T group. Many cis gay folk believe that their oppression experiences mean that they aren't hurting trans folk, when quite a few of the hate crimes, degendering, appropriation of our suffering (gayification, basically claiming trans women are actually gay men in history to recenter cis gay folk) and other ******** up s**t done to trans women especially is perpetrated by cis gay men.

I don't think discussing the full gamut of privileges and oppressions is bad, in fact being mindful of intersection and kyriarchy is very good.

But using it as a smokescreen or a get out of jail free card isn't good. And that's what we were upbraiding her on.  

[Kuroiban]

Recursive Paradox

@Fiddler:

I really think the only complaint any of us had regarding Orchid's bringing up of her own experiences with privilege was her implication that her own experiences gave her an explicit and perfect understanding of privilege and oppression in any other context, and allowed her to dismiss the idea that she herself was privileged in other contexts.

Also, as an addition, that the fact that she had experienced such things in any sense trumped what anyone else had to say on the subject, such that she was above correction on anything regarding the matter.  

[Fiddlers Green]

My point was that the privilege can of worms, once opened, must allow the entirety of it's population free reign. I am aware of what came before, I was specifically addressing my observation that "race" privilege is related to class privilege. Especially in so much that race is a cultural concept, just like class. the two are interconnected, if not immediately, then historically.
Anyway, as I mentioned, I don't want to get into a chicken-egg debate on this.
Having clarified my point, hopefully, I return to skulking in the background.  

[FlySammyJ]

Fiddlers Green

My point was that the privilege can of worms, once opened, must allow the entirety of it's population free reign. I am aware of what came before, I was specifically addressing my observation that "race" privilege is related to class privilege. Especially in so much that race is a cultural concept, just like class. the two are interconnected, if not immediately, then historically.
Anyway, as I mentioned, I don't want to get into a chicken-egg debate on this.
Having clarified my point, hopefully, I return to skulking in the background.

Yeah, same here. My usual position is that racism isn't the problem - the society that is built around and is dependent upon hegemonic groupings of privilege is the problem. But that's neither here nor there in this argument, so I'll shut up.

Except to ask what you mean by meta-genetic groups? If you mean something like breeding populations, then I would answer that globalization has almost taken care of that question for us. We can observe differences between relatively isolated populations like we can with any animal. Morphological differences will of course occur geographically, but the important thing to the anthropologist is that if you took a baby from one place and raised it in another, the only difference between that baby and a native one would be morphological. Culture has become h. sapiens primary mode of adaptation.  

[Fiddlers Green]

Right, I'm walking slowly away from this.
However, to clarify what I meant by meta-genetics...
There are some religions, cultures, and societies that only accept people based on their ancestry. Sometimes, even the slightest contamination with outsider blood is enough for the person to be unrecognized, left for exposure, or relegated to slave/second class citizen status.  

[FlySammyJ]

Fiddlers Green

Right, I'm walking slowly away from this.
However, to clarify what I meant by meta-genetics...
There are some religions, cultures, and societies that only accept people based on their ancestry. Sometimes, even the slightest contamination with outsider blood is enough for the person to be unrecognized, left for exposure, or relegated to slave/second class citizen status.

Then this would be a cultural construction, and not biological. It's the group that has created the "other," blinding themselves to history. A lot of work has been done on the process of othering, but you're talking about classic eugenics, and if anyone knows not to ******** with eugenics, it's the field of anthropology as a whole. I'm not sure how you're asking about this type of society in relation to contemporary science. An example, perhaps?  

[Recursive Paradox]

demisara

My usual position is that racism isn't the problem - the society that is built around and is dependent upon hegemonic groupings of privilege is the problem.

Isn't that sort of a B is the issue even though set A is a part of set B quibble? Racism being the problem already implies that the hegemonic groupings of privilege are a problem cuz that's what it comes from.  

[Orchidsandfractals]

I have already clearly explained my viewpoints, so I feel no need to repeat them. I suggest rereading what I've written before for clarification if it is not clear.

I finally got the courage to talk to a real life friend about it(Who is a very dear friend of mine), and I did some divination with a pendulum(Listed about 7 goddesses, some who are very unlikely to be her, and then Hera kept on popping up, as she did during guided meditation), guided meditation with my friend, and we've determined it's in all likelyhood Hera(She had a hunch it was when I described my dream, but did not tell me till after the meditation session and divination was over to avoid skewing my mind). It matches up with who she is almost perfectly.(The only questionable part is why she likes it when I wear gold in honor of her. That's more Athena, but it's not documented that Hera objects to gold. And Athena and Hera did get along). Hawks are one of the many animals sarcred to Her. Purple is a color that would apply to her. I also asked on a Greek forum to verify what my friend said, and there was slight questioning over a few signs as to if it was Rhea, Athena, or Hera(Due to the purple and gold necklace I've been wearing), but according to most, it sounds like Hera. So, I shall be leaving this guide for one that will be better able to give me advice about my chosen path.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Orchidsandfractals

I have already clearly explained my viewpoints, so I feel no need to repeat them. I suggest rereading what I've written before for clarification if it is not clear.

Rereading your viewpoints will, despite your belief otherwise, not make them any less wrong. Or any less privileged and racist.  

[FlySammyJ]

Recursive Paradox

demisara

My usual position is that racism isn't the problem - the society that is built around and is dependent upon hegemonic groupings of privilege is the problem.

Isn't that sort of a B is the issue even though set A is a part of set B quibble? Racism being the problem already implies that the hegemonic groupings of privilege are a problem cuz that's what it comes from.

I'm not quibbling, I'm just noting that racism is a symptom of a cause. You're never going to stop coughing if you don't clear the infection.  

[Recursive Paradox]

demisara

Recursive Paradox

demisara

My usual position is that racism isn't the problem - the society that is built around and is dependent upon hegemonic groupings of privilege is the problem.

Isn't that sort of a B is the issue even though set A is a part of set B quibble? Racism being the problem already implies that the hegemonic groupings of privilege are a problem cuz that's what it comes from.

I'm not quibbling, I'm just noting that racism is a symptom of a cause. You're never going to stop coughing if you don't clear the infection.

So sort of the bandage vs. the healing situation? Use the bandage to keep from bleeding to death but actually heal the wound to stop the issue entirely.

It's a lot like hate crimes legislature. It's a bandage that keeps society from bleeding out but if you don't sew the wound shut, put healing ointments on it, and prevent infection, that bandage is more or less useless in the long run.

I still think using the bandage is a good idea but it needs to supplement the efforts to fix the overall problem.