This is a stupid question but I'm going to ask anyway thread

[Eltanin Sadachbia]

DemoniaFairy

Eltanin Sadachbia

DemoniaFairy

I'm trying to get a better understanding of Christianity and the bible. I don't plan to be a follower, I am trying to expand my knowledge of many religions.
I was wondering if there was a particular version that is the most historically correct?
I got the New World Translation from the Salvation Army, but somebody told me that the King James version is the only "real" christian bible. Is that true?

I noticed in a program on the History channel they were making references to Christian beliefs but they often quoted from the Hebrew bible. Is the Hebrew bible the Old Testament or another book entirely?

Also, if anyone can help me find good sources or good articles on the history of Christianity, it's origins etc. you would be a big help. biggrin

It's nice to be able to contribute, instead of just learning from here... LOL

One thing that many Christians believe is that the Bible is synonymous with history text book, which isn't the case. Yes, parts of the Bible quote history, but it is itself, a religious text. The main point of the stories found within are for spiritual purpose, and so as such, I myself do not believe that there is a certain translation that is more "Real" than any other, as long as the principles taught within are the same. All translations that I have came across describe the same events in the same verses in the same order, just with different wording.

Many people do say that the Old King James is the only real Bible. Most people can't even understand the wording of the King James version though... maybe that's why there are so many arguments within the different sects of Christianity. LOL

Anyway, the first 5 books of the Bible are equivalent to the Torah, but because of the linguistic nuances of the Hebrew language, it doesn't always come across in translations the way it is meant to by the Hebrew language. It is always best to have a Bible dictionary (even online) that can break down certain words to their basis when studying the deeper meanings of the scriptures.

Another thing to note about the Bible is that it started as a collection of smaller works, and letters, and groups of men argued for centuries on what texts should and shouldn't be included. They weren't only Hebrew texts, but also Greek and Latin. It is also worth taking note that many quotes of other Hebrew sources are found within the Bible, but the sources are not texts found within the Bible itself... There are many texts that were important to the early Christians that were left out of the Bible we have today.

I think that you would do well to read through the Bible you have, it will be much easier to understand than the King James version. Then if you are interested in learning more, you can search for non-canonical texts (early Christin works that didn't make it to the Bible). Try to keep an unbiased attitude, because you must realize society and culture are different today, and it's easy to think some things are 'unfair', such as how women are treated and the like.

Here is a pretty cool place to find links to online translations of several early Christian writings, those that made it to the Bible and some that didn't- Early Christian Writings

Bible Dictionary- You can look up a verse and then the individual words within to try to find their original meanings.

If you want to know more about the history of Christianity itself, just do a Google search. I am a bit hesitant to give you specific links because they tend to be pro-Christianity, and anti-Christianity, which just means that they are biased in favor of their own argument for or against the religion. I would suggest you read articles from both sides to get the bigger picture, and stay away from articles written by specialty groups (such as pro/anti women or pro/anti gay) because they tend to use incomplete quotes from the Bible to demonize the opposing side, with no real history to help.

Thank you so much for your help! biggrin
I will definitely remain unbiased, I have nothing against Christians or their religion. I am going to be very busy for a while...
My mom invited me to join a bible study with her and a small group from the church she attends. She knows I have other interests and understands it would only be for intellectual reasons. Do you think it would be disrespectful for me to join even though I don't follow the religion or their deity?

Absolutely not disrespectful in the least... your mother sounds like a very understanding woman, and if the rest of her group is like that, then you probably have a good starting point for getting solid information (not the crap that is repeated out of context to gather new 'converts')...

...and the biased attitudes tend to sneak up on you, I know they snag me sometimes, about my own religion. If you learn to recognize where they start, then it's easier to put things into perspective... the major problem I have had in the past is what role is a woman supposed to maintain within my religion, but through some serious study and inquiry (and even the help of a Hebrew rabbi at one point) I have learned that a woman's place is not so limited as many Christians believe.

Other issues, such as the acceptance, tolerance, and the responsibilities of the Christian in general are really a major 'silent' debate that really isn't so silent. It's easy to get disillusioned with everything to do with Christianity when there seems to be so many people with different opinions. These are the things that all Christians deal with inside of themselves whether they say so or not. With so many 'teachers' telling them what to do, and so many just taking their 'teachers' word for it and not taking the time to see what the Book really says...well... I think everyone here is familiar with how ugly that gets...

Allot of the friction stems from people having consigned themselves wholeheartedly to what their congregation believes, and invested so much of themselves into following what they are told, that it would be devastating for them to learn that they have been 'doing it' wrong the whole time. Yes, Christians are compared to sheep in the Bible, but that wasn't the purpose of that metaphor.

I am sure that you will come across some of the more abrasive sorts in your quest for understanding, but try to keep these things in mind when you encounter them. The fact is, you probably already understand more about the Christian God than they do.  

[DemoniaFairy]

Eltanin Sadachbia

DemoniaFairy

Eltanin Sadachbia

DemoniaFairy

I'm trying to get a better understanding of Christianity and the bible. I don't plan to be a follower, I am trying to expand my knowledge of many religions.
I was wondering if there was a particular version that is the most historically correct?
I got the New World Translation from the Salvation Army, but somebody told me that the King James version is the only "real" christian bible. Is that true?

I noticed in a program on the History channel they were making references to Christian beliefs but they often quoted from the Hebrew bible. Is the Hebrew bible the Old Testament or another book entirely?

Also, if anyone can help me find good sources or good articles on the history of Christianity, it's origins etc. you would be a big help. biggrin

It's nice to be able to contribute, instead of just learning from here... LOL

One thing that many Christians believe is that the Bible is synonymous with history text book, which isn't the case. Yes, parts of the Bible quote history, but it is itself, a religious text. The main point of the stories found within are for spiritual purpose, and so as such, I myself do not believe that there is a certain translation that is more "Real" than any other, as long as the principles taught within are the same. All translations that I have came across describe the same events in the same verses in the same order, just with different wording.

Many people do say that the Old King James is the only real Bible. Most people can't even understand the wording of the King James version though... maybe that's why there are so many arguments within the different sects of Christianity. LOL

Anyway, the first 5 books of the Bible are equivalent to the Torah, but because of the linguistic nuances of the Hebrew language, it doesn't always come across in translations the way it is meant to by the Hebrew language. It is always best to have a Bible dictionary (even online) that can break down certain words to their basis when studying the deeper meanings of the scriptures.

Another thing to note about the Bible is that it started as a collection of smaller works, and letters, and groups of men argued for centuries on what texts should and shouldn't be included. They weren't only Hebrew texts, but also Greek and Latin. It is also worth taking note that many quotes of other Hebrew sources are found within the Bible, but the sources are not texts found within the Bible itself... There are many texts that were important to the early Christians that were left out of the Bible we have today.

I think that you would do well to read through the Bible you have, it will be much easier to understand than the King James version. Then if you are interested in learning more, you can search for non-canonical texts (early Christin works that didn't make it to the Bible). Try to keep an unbiased attitude, because you must realize society and culture are different today, and it's easy to think some things are 'unfair', such as how women are treated and the like.

Here is a pretty cool place to find links to online translations of several early Christian writings, those that made it to the Bible and some that didn't- Early Christian Writings

Bible Dictionary- You can look up a verse and then the individual words within to try to find their original meanings.

If you want to know more about the history of Christianity itself, just do a Google search. I am a bit hesitant to give you specific links because they tend to be pro-Christianity, and anti-Christianity, which just means that they are biased in favor of their own argument for or against the religion. I would suggest you read articles from both sides to get the bigger picture, and stay away from articles written by specialty groups (such as pro/anti women or pro/anti gay) because they tend to use incomplete quotes from the Bible to demonize the opposing side, with no real history to help.

Thank you so much for your help! biggrin
I will definitely remain unbiased, I have nothing against Christians or their religion. I am going to be very busy for a while...
My mom invited me to join a bible study with her and a small group from the church she attends. She knows I have other interests and understands it would only be for intellectual reasons. Do you think it would be disrespectful for me to join even though I don't follow the religion or their deity?

Absolutely not disrespectful in the least... your mother sounds like a very understanding woman, and if the rest of her group is like that, then you probably have a good starting point for getting solid information (not the crap that is repeated out of context to gather new 'converts')...

...and the biased attitudes tend to sneak up on you, I know they snag me sometimes, about my own religion. If you learn to recognize where they start, then it's easier to put things into perspective... the major problem I have had in the past is what role is a woman supposed to maintain within my religion, but through some serious study and inquiry (and even the help of a Hebrew rabbi at one point) I have learned that a woman's place is not so limited as many Christians believe.

Other issues, such as the acceptance, tolerance, and the responsibilities of the Christian in general are really a major 'silent' debate that really isn't so silent. It's easy to get disillusioned with everything to do with Christianity when there seems to be so many people with different opinions. These are the things that all Christians deal with inside of themselves whether they say so or not. With so many 'teachers' telling them what to do, and so many just taking their 'teachers' word for it and not taking the time to see what the Book really says...well... I think everyone here is familiar with how ugly that gets...

Allot of the friction stems from people having consigned themselves wholeheartedly to what their congregation believes, and invested so much of themselves into following what they are told, that it would be devastating for them to learn that they have been 'doing it' wrong the whole time. Yes, Christians are compared to sheep in the Bible, but that wasn't the purpose of that metaphor.

I am sure that you will come across some of the more abrasive sorts in your quest for understanding, but try to keep these things in mind when you encounter them. The fact is, you probably already understand more about the Christian God than they do.

Bible study was very very interesting. I'll admit, I was disappointed that we didnt actually read from the bible, but supposedly they had during previous bible study sessions. The day I went the pastor, Charlie, put a movie on instead. It was about the story of Jacob and his brother Esau, then it went on to the story of Jacob's favorite son, Joseph. I see what you mean now, about the way they spoke of women in that day. stressed Anyways, I'm not sure I really understood the story. I asked the pastor if there was a specific moral to it and all he said was something along the lines of, "It's proof that if your heart doesn't stray from God he will always take care of you." I think I will just start reading the bible I got on my own, that way I can start from the beginning and if I have questions I'm sure he wouldn't mind answering any of them. Also, I think I need to find other sources, perhaps from an outside perspective.

. When it was over he asked me what I thought and invited me to come to church, but I feel uncomfortable with that idea. I'm not interested in entering a place of worship to a God I don't intend to worship.
I do get the feeling he was hoping I would suddenly change my mind about being a neo-pagan, but thankfully my mother and the rest of the group seemed to understand where I was coming from. They were very nice to me and were actually interested in what neopaganism is (which I told them it's not what many think it is, alot of people think of pananism as a single religion that practices witchcraft, but is actually an umbrella term for many different religions, many of which don't practice witchcraft etc.) unlike some Christians I have met before that told me I am going to Hell, I understand now that I have been stereotyping Christians in my mind based on a few I have come across and I feel pretty bad about that.  

[Eltanin Sadachbia]

I'm glad you have a group of down-to-earth Christians. You might rethink the going-to-church idea, as allot of times, the sermon is just the pastor talking about the meanings of certain passages.

If you want to refrain from the worship times, you might stay out of the sanctuary during the songs, and refrain from taking communion if it is offered. That is really the worship parts of a service. That is only a suggestion, but it is totally understandable if you refrain from the whole thing. A larger congregation during a service will definitely be sure to have some more scrutinizing people...

It would probably make your mother's pastor more than happy to answer any questions you may have. If you would like a place to go that you can get varying opinions and perspectives of what the scriptures have to say, PM me and I can direct you to a guild that will give you some pretty diverse but educated answers about it. All great people, no judging. 3nodding  

[DemoniaFairy]

Is "casting a circle" purely a Wiccan practice or do other faiths do this as well prior to practicing witchcraft? What makes casting a circle necessary? Or is it truly not necessary at all?  

[Collowrath]

DemoniaFairy

Is "casting a circle" purely a Wiccan practice or do other faiths do this as well prior to practicing witchcraft? What makes casting a circle necessary? Or is it truly not necessary at all?

I think, it's more correct that casting a circle isn't necessarily a Wiccan practice. It's a common neopagan practice generally and it's, I believe, rooted in Catholic mysticism.

That complicates the last two questions; what makes it necessary depends on the tradition - in mine, it isn't and we have other ways of making a space 'clean'. Generally though I think neopagans use it largely to clear the space, mark it as separate and sacred. Whether it's truly necessary has to do with your tradition. Is it?  

[Esiris]

Collowrath

I think, it's more correct that casting a circle isn't necessarily a Wiccan practice. It's a common neopagan practice generally and it's, I believe, rooted in Catholic mysticism.

Can you tell me where the idea of Catholic mysticism and circle casting came from?

Quote:

That complicates the last two questions; what makes it necessary depends on the tradition - in mine, it isn't and we have other ways of making a space 'clean'. Generally though I think neopagans use it largely to clear the space, mark it as separate and sacred. Whether it's truly necessary has to do with your tradition. Is it?

I think Neopaganism adopted the idea of casting a circle from Wicca- but what Wiccans do isn't just a space purification- which is what a lot of neopagans seem to use it as.  

[Collowrath]

Esiris

Collowrath

I think, it's more correct that casting a circle isn't necessarily a Wiccan practice. It's a common neopagan practice generally and it's, I believe, rooted in Catholic mysticism.

Can you tell me where the idea of Catholic mysticism and circle casting came from?

iirc, the Golden Dawn and related Orders use/d Christian (sp. Catholic) and "Jewish" aesthetics, concepts, and associations. I'm not sure of the details, but it was my impression that a lot of this was distilled and decontextualized numerous times down to Neopaganism.

Quote:

Quote:

That complicates the last two questions; what makes it necessary depends on the tradition - in mine, it isn't and we have other ways of making a space 'clean'. Generally though I think neopagans use it largely to clear the space, mark it as separate and sacred. Whether it's truly necessary has to do with your tradition. Is it?

I think Neopaganism adopted the idea of casting a circle from Wicca- but what Wiccans do isn't just a space purification- which is what a lot of neopagans seem to use it as.

Yeah, as I said above, it all seems very heavily distilled - it's like a game of telephone it seems, you overhear something and apply it because what you overheard sounds cool, then someone overhears you and does the same, ad nauseum until the rituals resemble each other in name and some of the language but really have next to nothing to do with each other. Sometimes I worry about what people 'overhear', from me.  

[DarkAliceChibi]

Okay, here's one: I lurk a lot (don't post much though) and I've seen the phrases "666.5" and "Church of Mod" floating around a bit, but I have no idea what these mean/are. Googling has proved futile. So...what are these thing, and what do they mean?
(Apologies if this is a repeat question, I'm trying to make my way through this whole thread, but it's very time consuming. xp )  

[TeaDidikai]

DarkAliceChibi

Okay, here's one: I lurk a lot (don't post much though) and I've seen the phrases "666.5" and "Church of Mod" floating around a bit, but I have no idea what these mean/are. Googling has proved futile. So...what are these thing, and what do they mean?
(Apologies if this is a repeat question, I'm trying to make my way through this whole thread, but it's very time consuming. xp )

O prophet! thou hast ill will to learn this writing.
The Church of Mod was the chat thread that was set up in M&R back in the day. It got chatterboxed when the forums shifted and is now in Friends Chat. Stalk Nuri and you should find it. 666.5 is part of "Things I have Learned in M&R" a list of rules based on common things regs saw in M&R that we spent more time beating our heads against than we did having interesting discussions. 666.5 is one that Celeblin came up with.  

[DarkAliceChibi]

TeaDidikai

O prophet! thou hast ill will to learn this writing.
The Church of Mod was the chat thread that was set up in M&R back in the day. It got chatterboxed when the forums shifted and is now in Friends Chat. Stalk Nuri and you should find it. 666.5 is part of "Things I have Learned in M&R" a list of rules based on common things regs saw in M&R that we spent more time beating our heads against than we did having interesting discussions. 666.5 is one that Celeblin came up with.

Thank you!  

[Scathefyre]

Here goes, I haven't posted here for quite awhile.

I've been thinking of making my own divination system, this stems from me never being comfortable using tarot cards, they are fine in a pinch but I never seem to connect with them on a personal level.

I used Runes for a long time, they worked well for me, but I feel like I can't keep using them respectfully, I don't follow much of the mythology in a spiritual sense and I feel sort of wrong when I use them because they don't synch up with my own take on things.

I realize this is a huge undertaking, maybe there are alternative divination systems that I haven't found, if you guys had any suggestions I would be glad to hear them.

I had it in my head I would very much like to have a system similar to tarot and runes in the general sense that they have many answers to give at once, the sense of having a set of charged objects that I can make a personal connection with and lay in front of me. I was thinking of going with symbols rather then pictures because I find the message less forced in that way and I can meditate on a symbol easier for some reason.

Maybe I am going about this in a strange way or looking at it wrong, I am willing to put in 100% effort in any case, I would like some input because I think I'm becoming scattered here.  

[Katefox Tarnagona]

Scathefyre

Here goes, I haven't posted here for quite awhile.

I've been thinking of making my own divination system, this stems from me never being comfortable using tarot cards, they are fine in a pinch but I never seem to connect with them on a personal level.

I used Runes for a long time, they worked well for me, but I feel like I can't keep using them respectfully, I don't follow much of the mythology in a spiritual sense and I feel sort of wrong when I use them because they don't synch up with my own take on things.

I realize this is a huge undertaking, maybe there are alternative divination systems that I haven't found, if you guys had any suggestions I would be glad to hear them.

I had it in my head I would very much like to have a system similar to tarot and runes in the general sense that they have many answers to give at once, the sense of having a set of charged objects that I can make a personal connection with and lay in front of me. I was thinking of going with symbols rather then pictures because I find the message less forced in that way and I can meditate on a symbol easier for some reason.

Maybe I am going about this in a strange way or looking at it wrong, I am willing to put in 100% effort in any case, I would like some input because I think I'm becoming scattered here.

Two possible suggestions for you:

1) Make your own oracle deck. Or you could look into existing oracle decks if you want something that is like Tarot, but not Tarot, and don't want to bother making your own. If you make your own oracle deck, you can, of course, choose a set of symbols (or pictures, but you said you prefer symbols) that speak to you especially.

2) Pick a bunch of little objects that represent something, or have some kind of meaning to you. You can keep them in a little bag, and use them like (I think) you use runes (but I've never used runes, so I could be off), by drawing out some of them in answer to your question. The trick with this one, though, is to find objects all of a similar size, or otherwise find a way of drawing them out that is random enough (like instead of always drawing out the biggest object just because it is the biggest).

But in general, I think you can turn anything that will generate a random answer into a divination system. (I guess some people would disagree with me, but eh.) Like, I can envision a system where you roll a die, and each number means something different. And if you had something like a twenty-sided die, or even a pair of ten-sided dice (which gives you 100 possible numbers if one is tens, and the other is ones), you'd have plenty of numbers to assign meanings to. I think the only thing to watch out for is that you have the same number of positive and negative meanings, or else, you'll get an answer that is skewed one way or the other.

Or, I've heard of opening a book to a random page and reading the word/sentence/paragraph your eyes first fall on, and using that to come up with the answer you're divining for. I've also divined by looking at the clouds (mostly for fun, than out of any seriousness, so I don't really know how accurate it is). Like, you know the children's game of making pictures out of the clouds? Like that, except then you'd interpret the picture to mean something in your daily life. If course, this only works when there's the right kind of clouds in the sky.

Yeah, I find the idea of making one's own divination system really pretty fascinating, even though I haven't ever done so myself. So hopefully some of that can give you some ideas. cat_smile  

[AniMajor]

Scathefyre

Here goes, I haven't posted here for quite awhile.

I've been thinking of making my own divination system, this stems from me never being comfortable using tarot cards, they are fine in a pinch but I never seem to connect with them on a personal level.

I used Runes for a long time, they worked well for me, but I feel like I can't keep using them respectfully, I don't follow much of the mythology in a spiritual sense and I feel sort of wrong when I use them because they don't synch up with my own take on things.

I realize this is a huge undertaking, maybe there are alternative divination systems that I haven't found, if you guys had any suggestions I would be glad to hear them.

I had it in my head I would very much like to have a system similar to tarot and runes in the general sense that they have many answers to give at once, the sense of having a set of charged objects that I can make a personal connection with and lay in front of me. I was thinking of going with symbols rather then pictures because I find the message less forced in that way and I can meditate on a symbol easier for some reason.

Maybe I am going about this in a strange way or looking at it wrong, I am willing to put in 100% effort in any case, I would like some input because I think I'm becoming scattered here.

I didn't use tarot for a while for several reasons, one of them being that I didn't understand/didn't like the meanings. Then I found a book that explained tarot in a way I could understand (that wasn't just a list of adjectives after the card name).

Before that, though, I divined using whatever I could put enough meaning into. Like a Magic 8-Ball (which is still my favorite method), an origami fortune-teller, a set of Angel Sanctuary playing cards, the circle divining method from that movie Dreamcatcher, making a random playlist, and opening a random book to a random page (there are also books specifically for this.)

I'd start with how you're going to make your system random enough (whether drawing cards, throwing cards, casting dice or stones, drawing things out of a bag), then fill in the objects that you want to use with that method. If you like the casting part of runes, then you could either get a set of similar objects like rocks and paint symbols on them. If you want to use cards, get a cheap deck and draw symbols or write meanings on them.  

[TeaDidikai]

Scathefyre

I realize this is a huge undertaking, maybe there are alternative divination systems that I haven't found, if you guys had any suggestions I would be glad to hear them.

What kinds of shinies do you like? What kinds of things do you keep on hand? What do you have around you all the time?

What kind of mythology/culture/lore do you connect with?

I like tarot, but I needed to make my own cards. I drew from my culture and traditions and they're very effective and quite beautiful.

I also drew up a set of runes that were specific to my tradition with iconography lifted from the horse brasses my family collects.

I also use playing cards I made, palmistry, etc. I even made my own pendulum from a piece of antler an an old stone bead. But then, I'm the kind of gal that in a pinch I could empty my purse and cast it's trinkets and get an accurate reading. Best insult I was ever paid: a guy I know called me Cassandra.