Intelligence, Superiority, and Society:a Eugenics Discussion

[Henneth Annun]

This thread is to continue the debate started in the "WTF WHY IS EVERYONE I KNOW HAVING BABIES" thread in the Life Issues/Fashion subforum. All those who wish to discuss it, please stay in this thread.

Shadowed Intent

trampyre

XWraith_LordX

Shadowed Intent

AEtherclaw

there really needs to be forced mandatory abortions for anyone under 26, all druggies, anyone with an IQ under 110, and the exceptionally poor.

Nope, anyone with an IQ under 120, can you imagine how excellent it would be? everyone would be reasonably intelligent and without a population crisis there would be no poverty!

Wonderful. We'll cut out a large chunk of the population that way, hopefully in all the right places.

I'm aware that this may all be a bit of black humour... BUT

I don't think society would work very well if it were all 120+ types. For one thing, IQ is only one way of measuring intelligence. Some people we consider very valuable to society (or even 'geniuses') might not cap your ideal score. It's totally arbitrary, and a little offensive, to suggest that people who are not as intelligent as you are not worthwhile members of society. I know this because I went to a very diverse school and had the privilege of being amongst Gifted students, 'Average' (aka 'Advanced') students, General students (a lot with learning disorders) and students in a special Arts program which was very hard to get into. Of course there was elitism, but what I learned from being there is that people of every level of 'ability' have value, and deserve respect.

How would you feel if you were mentally handicapped? How would you like to be labelled as such, or better yet, 'stupid' ?

I'm sure many of you have read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley; if not pick it up and it will lay out for you a possible world in which social caste is organised by intelligence level.

I apologise if this seems to be over-reacting. I am just passionate about this subject because although I am 'intelligent' (at least according to my piece of paper), I have seen so much arrogance on the part of 'intelligent' people and I think it really ought to end.

Sorry, but as much as I like black humor I was not joking, although IQ isnt the perfect way of measuring intelligence, it is quite common that geniuses do not have children anyway, do you really believe we should have a world filled with idiots? they are a drain to everything, in exception to religion.

 

[Henneth Annun]

trampyre

Shadowed Intent

Sorry, but as much as I like black humor I was not joking, although IQ isnt the perfect way of measuring intelligence, it is quite common that geniuses do not have children anyway, do you really believe we should have a world filled with idiots? they are a drain to everything, in exception to religion.

Sorry, I'm tired right now, so I'm writing this in haste. (Now edited a bit to add links and additional information.)

In exception to religion? A lot of people would argue that religious idiots are the biggest drain. Separate debate I believe: "Has religion anything to contribute to society?"

I think the rant I posted was a lot off topic and really this an 'extended debate' type issue.

Even I get frustrated with idiocy. But think about it. Once all the 'idiots' of society disappear, who is going to take their place? 120+ people? not willingly. It's possible that society would evolve more rapidly to a point where everyone would be happy spending their lives doing mundane tasks regardless of how intelligent they were, but a lot of people who are over average intelligence have a feeling of entitlement to something 'above and beyond' because of their superior abilities. Unless you have a world full of Good Will Hunting scenarios...


Besides that, 'idiots' have much to contribute in every field of human endeavor. Someone you think is 'idiotic' might be a skilled auto repairer, a carpenter, a singer-songwriter you admire, or even a world famous painter. A social worker who helps people in need. An inventor or great entrepreneur. That famous athlete you admire. That hot girl or guy you like. One of your best friends or family members. You just never know. Sometimes 'idiots' achieve truly great things, that 'intelligent' people have not. It's a fallacy to think that they don't.

It's also a kind of discrimination to think that way. '-Ism' comes in many forms. Would you exterminate all black people? All Jews? I doubt it. So why all 'Idiots' ?

That brings me to another point. Intelligence tests are biased towards the people that wrote them (originally, white people). They are often not culturally sensitive, but I imagine psychologists are working on eliminating that variable. There was a famous research study done where Black people were proven to be less intelligent than White people, and White people less intelligent than Asians. Take a look at this: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2677098.ece?token=null&offset=0

For more information, take a look at the wikipedia article on the Stanford-Binet test: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford-Binet

So, the issue is a lot more complicated than you would think. Practically, theoretically, and ethically speaking.

intelligence =/= usefulness to society

(and, in conjunction with that,) idiocy =/= usefulness to society

intelligence (or idiocy) =/= fitness / 'deservingness' to survive

intelligence =/= superiority in general


Overpopulation and ways to combat it, is a separate debate, really, as are the issues of 'druggies' and the exceptionally poor.

I'm kind of sorry I was so reactive to those posts, because I honestly can't see anyone here agreeing with me. (I guess I could be wrong, seeing as it's only been a day.) I guess because of the large number of goths who feel superior to society in general, superiority is strongly built into every aspect of who they are, and superior intelligence reinforces that (or perhaps is one of the reasons they consider themselves goths). I feel like it was pointless expressing my opinion just now. If people want to believe that smarter is always better, that's what they will believe. I did for a long time when I was young. It took a lot of personal experience and a lot of reflection before I realised I was mistaken.

 

[Henneth Annun]

Shadowed Intent

Quote:

In exception to religion? A lot of people would argue that religious idiots are the biggest drain. Separate debate I believe: "Has religion anything to contribute to society?"

I meant that they are good for religions since the less intelligent one is the more likely one is to be converted.

Quote:

Besides that, 'idiots' have much to contribute in every field of human endeavor. Someone you think is 'idiotic' might be a skilled auto repairer, a carpenter, a singer-songwriter you admire, or even a world famous painter. A social worker who helps people in need. An inventor or great entrepreneur. That famous athlete you admire. That hot girl or guy you like. One of your best friends or family members. You just never know. Sometimes 'idiots' achieve truly great things, that 'intelligent' people have not. It's a fallacy to think that they don't.

This is a good point, since if there were no idiots there would be noone to do the jobs we don't want to do, however, perhaps we would realise we needed to make robots to do them for us, effectively advancing our technology significantly. (just a theory)

Quote:

It's also a kind of discrimination to think that way. '-Ism' comes in many forms. Would you exterminate all black people? All Jews? I doubt it. So why all 'Idiots' ?

I am not talking of extermination technically, I would be if I said that they should all be killed, but I am not, though I suppose one could argue that I am.

Quote:

I'm kind of sorry I was so reactive to those posts, because I honestly can't see anyone here agreeing with me. (I guess I could be wrong, seeing as it's only been a day.) I guess because of the large number of goths who feel superior to society in general, superiority is strongly built into every aspect of who they are, and superior intelligence reinforces that (or perhaps is one of the reasons they consider themselves goths). I feel like it was pointless expressing my opinion just now. If people want to believe that smarter is always better, that's what they will believe. I did for a long time when I was young. It took a lot of personal experience and a lot of reflection before I realised I was mistaken.

Oh certainly not, I always enjoy a good debate, I admire you're feelings of equality, in-fact I would probably not be so happy in a society without idiots, since I would have noone to feel superior to. I just think that if we could get rid of religion, and limit war a great deal, the world, and humanity, could improve massively, and I see getting rid of idiocy and bigotry as one of the first steps to that.

 

[Henneth Annun]

Keevan Draco

hmmm, intelligence as a mark of privilege? not possible...but sadly already exists in a limited format within the human mind.
In an ideal world, everyone would just get along and mundane jobs would be more beneficial to each and everyone of us. The pursuit of knowledge would be the new mandate of the human race, and war would exist only within the battlefields of the mind.

we don't live in a perfect world....

in the real world, there are a lot of teens having children when they are not financially, mentally, and psychologically equiped to handle the rigors of child raising in todays economic landscape. For every success story of a teen mother, there are thousands of other teens that fall by the wayside and give us prime examples in epic fail format of what not to do while raising children. And Wraith is right, to some extent, it's not just teens making mistakes raising children but many adults as well, but that's another debate entirely.

please, don't kidd yourselves for one moment about truth vs. popular opinion.

religion is the single greatest help, and hinderance to the human race. It helps by instiling a basic moral compass into the human psyche, yet hinders that same psyche with a lot of mental baggage and guilt over nothing. A lot of arugments could be wasted on the religion vs. social programs debate as to whom is the better basic morals teacher but this is not the place and time...

what I will state for the record is my own personal opinion and should not be taken as fact.

1.I feel that teenagers should refrain from having children, period.

2.They should seek out the programs that would help them and the knowledge on their own, because this current generation of adults still forbids teenagers from learning the truth because of some stupid mental foible of their own generation.

3.A teenage woman should be equiped with the certain knowledge that most teenage men only have one thing in their hindbrains, (sex...and no matter how much they like to pretend they don't, it's always there. ) and will tell a young teenage woman anything she wants to hear just to get it.

4.A teenage man should be equiped with the certain knowledge that every teenage woman had a daddy who has no problem either castrating you, or assisting in your rapid nuptuals at the point of a gun should the worst case scenario occur. Don't kidd yourself, every dad feels this way about their daughters and some of us will even follow through with this plan with the assistance of various uncles and cousins who think the same way.

5.That engaging in intercourse could result in pregnancy thereby severly limiting your teenage life from a possible future of college, jobs, and valuable life experience that would help a teenager to raise a family of her/his own someday. (teen guys reread #4 for further clarification)

6. That teenagers should know that, by law, mom and dad are only responsible for your wellbeing up until the age of 18, and if you are thinking of living off your parents whenever you hit a snag in your lives, know that even though your parents love you, you become a huge burden on them, and unless you are prepared to get a job, move out, marry the guy/girl, and start a family of your own, and pay your own bills and groceries.....then maybe it's a very good idea to abstain a bit untill you are finacially, mentally, and psychologically able to live in the real world. (guys, re-read #4 if you are still unclear about all this).

like I said, this is just my opinion, (albeit, a very educated one) and you are free to make your own mistakes in this life, just be prepared for the consequences of your action, and take responsibility.

 

[Henneth Annun]

Shadowed Intent

Keevan Draco

like I said, this is just my opinion, (albeit, a very educated one) and you are free to make your own mistakes in this life, just be prepared for the consequences of your action, and take responsibility.

The problem is that it is not just the parent that is affected.

 

[Henneth Annun]

-Resurrected Writer-

Shadowed Intent

Quote:

In exception to religion? A lot of people would argue that religious idiots are the biggest drain. Separate debate I believe: "Has religion anything to contribute to society?"

I meant that they are good for religions since the less intelligent one is the more likely one is to be converted.

Quote:

Besides that, 'idiots' have much to contribute in every field of human endeavor. Someone you think is 'idiotic' might be a skilled auto repairer, a carpenter, a singer-songwriter you admire, or even a world famous painter. A social worker who helps people in need. An inventor or great entrepreneur. That famous athlete you admire. That hot girl or guy you like. One of your best friends or family members. You just never know. Sometimes 'idiots' achieve truly great things, that 'intelligent' people have not. It's a fallacy to think that they don't.

This is a good point, since if there were no idiots there would be noone to do the jobs we don't want to do, however, perhaps we would realise we needed to make robots to do them for us, effectively advancing our technology significantly. (just a theory)

Quote:

It's also a kind of discrimination to think that way. '-Ism' comes in many forms. Would you exterminate all black people? All Jews? I doubt it. So why all 'Idiots' ?

I am not talking of extermination technically, I would be if I said that they should all be killed, but I am not, though I suppose one could argue that I am.

Quote:

I'm kind of sorry I was so reactive to those posts, because I honestly can't see anyone here agreeing with me. (I guess I could be wrong, seeing as it's only been a day.) I guess because of the large number of goths who feel superior to society in general, superiority is strongly built into every aspect of who they are, and superior intelligence reinforces that (or perhaps is one of the reasons they consider themselves goths). I feel like it was pointless expressing my opinion just now. If people want to believe that smarter is always better, that's what they will believe. I did for a long time when I was young. It took a lot of personal experience and a lot of reflection before I realised I was mistaken.

Oh certainly not, I always enjoy a good debate, I admire you're feelings of equality, in-fact I would probably not be so happy in a society without idiots, since I would have noone to feel superior to. I just think that if we could get rid of religion, and limit war a great deal, the world, and humanity, could improve massively, and I see getting rid of idiocy and bigotry as one of the first steps to that.

Even as an athiest, I can't see how someone is "less intelligent enough" to convert. Hell, they might find some kind of discipline and/or enlightenment that they have been seeking for a long time. Granted, religion has not always had positive outcomes.

While it might be liberating to some to have robots do cheap labor, it would only widen the gap between humanity and self-sufficiency. Should more and more tasks be relegated to technology, a sufficient impact (either magnetic or nuclear) would ******** us all up.

Ridding the world of religion would not only be a difficult (maybe impossible) task, but also pretty unfulfilling - there will still be much for people to attack each other about. War will always persist, simply because of that fact (with the irony being that many advancing weapons - from the gatling gun to the nuclear bomb - were made with the hope to end war). Thus, Utopia - even one free of poor intelligence - is impossible.

 

[Eskimos are so gay]

I'm sorry, but the idea of aborting every baby who would not have an IQ of above 120 is just ridiculous and offensive. neutral

Not all jobs require intelligence. We need people to do heavy labor and pump gas and whatnot. People who aren't very smart can still be productive members of society.

Getting rid of these people won't necessarily improve our world at all. Some very smart people do some very stupid things. At the same time, some people who may have low IQs, whether through luck, initiative or whatever, manage to do some great things. neutral

Besides that, 120 is just unreasonable. Only about 10% of the babies being born would be deemed "smart" enough to be born.

Another problem is the fact that you're forcing somebody to get an abortion. Almost everybody agrees that women should have some right as to what goes on in their womb. Even some people don't agree that women should be allowed to get abortions, I can't imagine forced abortions going over well.  

[mechanical kitsy]

If you want to get really technical, you shouldn't base children being born on IQ.
You should, however limit the amount of children born(as in a limit of 1-2 children per couple), and assess their intelligence as soon as possible, and try to train them for what they would be useful for later in life, when they become adults. It's not fair, but who cares.  

[zz1000zz]

I can create a test which conclusively shows you are an idiot. Because I perform better on this test, I am allowed to take away rights I feel you do not deserve. As such, I am going to take away your right to have children.

Hopefully your place in society does not offend me too much, or else I will use this test to take away your right to live.

This sarcasm is meant to mock any idiot who actually believes that nonsense. If anything, there would be more justification to kill the people promoting that idea, via some self defense argument  

[Shadowed Intent]

xXx kitsy xXx

If you want to get really technical, you shouldn't base children being born on IQ.
You should, however limit the amount of children born(as in a limit of 1-2 children per couple), and assess their intelligence as soon as possible, and try to train them for what they would be useful for later in life, when they become adults. It's not fair, but who cares.

Yes, I agree with this. When I made the comments above I was still in highschool and had to be around stupid people whom I hated every day, now that I am away from that my views are a little less harsh.