Sins of the Father

[Galad Aglaron]

Priestley

Galad Damodred

Priestley

Galad Damodred

Priestley

Galad Damodred

See Luke 16:17 plz. sweatdrop

What's your point?

Well, doesn't it mean that all those horrid laws still apply? Grace or not, the laws of the Old Testament must still be followed.

The context in which Jesus is speaking is a condemnation of the Pharisees and those who justify themselves in the eyes of men by the Law (Luke 16:14-15). There is a change in what is being preached (Luke 16:16) and it has resulted in those who were burdened with the Law flocking to receive it. Luke 16:17 is both a scathing judgement of those who misuse the Law to burden the people and a testament to its endurance.

But it endures and that is the point.

No, your point is that the Old Testament must be followed, grace or not.

The Law exists despite there being nothing and no one else, such is its endurance and permanence. Not practicing the Law does not take away from the Law.

But... doesn't that mean that y'all are sinners? Not following the Law and so on?  

[Priestley]

Galad Damodred

Priestley

Galad Damodred

Priestley

Galad Damodred

Well, doesn't it mean that all those horrid laws still apply? Grace or not, the laws of the Old Testament must still be followed.

The context in which Jesus is speaking is a condemnation of the Pharisees and those who justify themselves in the eyes of men by the Law (Luke 16:14-15). There is a change in what is being preached (Luke 16:16) and it has resulted in those who were burdened with the Law flocking to receive it. Luke 16:17 is both a scathing judgement of those who misuse the Law to burden the people and a testament to its endurance.

But it endures and that is the point.

No, your point is that the Old Testament must be followed, grace or not.

The Law exists despite there being nothing and no one else, such is its endurance and permanence. Not practicing the Law does not take away from the Law.

But... doesn't that mean that y'all are sinners? Not following the Law and so on?

Matthew's account of Luke 16:17 and context:

Matthew 5:17-20

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. Not all that will be accomplished has yet been accomplished (regarding prophesy and future events). Jesus speaks of the Law as a standard against which one's position in heaven will be judged. He says nothing of hell. The last sentence ties up how Jesus fulfilment of the law (which had not yet happened at the time but has now happened) and our faith in him is what places our righteousness above that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law.

Christians are sinners, yes. Does that mean you are not? No.  

[Galad Aglaron]

Priestley

Galad Damodred

Priestley

Galad Damodred

Priestley

The context in which Jesus is speaking is a condemnation of the Pharisees and those who justify themselves in the eyes of men by the Law (Luke 16:14-15). There is a change in what is being preached (Luke 16:16) and it has resulted in those who were burdened with the Law flocking to receive it. Luke 16:17 is both a scathing judgement of those who misuse the Law to burden the people and a testament to its endurance.

But it endures and that is the point.

No, your point is that the Old Testament must be followed, grace or not.

The Law exists despite there being nothing and no one else, such is its endurance and permanence. Not practicing the Law does not take away from the Law.

But... doesn't that mean that y'all are sinners? Not following the Law and so on?

Matthew's account of Luke 16:17 and context:

Matthew 5:17-20

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. Not all that will be accomplished has yet been accomplished (regarding prophesy and future events). Jesus speaks of the Law as a standard against which one's position in heaven will be judged. He says nothing of hell. The last sentence ties up how Jesus fulfilment of the law (which had not yet happened at the time but has now happened) and our faith in him is what places our righteousness above that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law.

Christians are sinners, yes. Does that mean you are not? No.

Well, actually, right and wrong are subjective. xd So no, not really. But I don't think I could live if I didn't have a standard of right and wrong by which I could judge myself and the world.  

[Priestley]

Galad Damodred

Priestley

Galad Damodred

Priestley

Galad Damodred

But it endures and that is the point.

No, your point is that the Old Testament must be followed, grace or not.

The Law exists despite there being nothing and no one else, such is its endurance and permanence. Not practicing the Law does not take away from the Law.

But... doesn't that mean that y'all are sinners? Not following the Law and so on?

Matthew's account of Luke 16:17 and context:

Matthew 5:17-20

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. Not all that will be accomplished has yet been accomplished (regarding prophesy and future events). Jesus speaks of the Law as a standard against which one's position in heaven will be judged. He says nothing of hell. The last sentence ties up how Jesus fulfilment of the law (which had not yet happened at the time but has now happened) and our faith in him is what places our righteousness above that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law.

Christians are sinners, yes. Does that mean you are not? No.

Well, actually, right and wrong are subjective. xd So no, not really. But I don't think I could live if I didn't have a standard of right and wrong by which I could judge myself and the world.

Heh, you think that the Law doesn't apply to you. That makes me laugh a little. biggrin  

[Galad Aglaron]

Priestley

Galad Damodred

Priestley

Galad Damodred

Priestley

No, your point is that the Old Testament must be followed, grace or not.

The Law exists despite there being nothing and no one else, such is its endurance and permanence. Not practicing the Law does not take away from the Law.

But... doesn't that mean that y'all are sinners? Not following the Law and so on?

Matthew's account of Luke 16:17 and context:

Matthew 5:17-20

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. Not all that will be accomplished has yet been accomplished (regarding prophesy and future events). Jesus speaks of the Law as a standard against which one's position in heaven will be judged. He says nothing of hell. The last sentence ties up how Jesus fulfilment of the law (which had not yet happened at the time but has now happened) and our faith in him is what places our righteousness above that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law.

Christians are sinners, yes. Does that mean you are not? No.

Well, actually, right and wrong are subjective. xd So no, not really. But I don't think I could live if I didn't have a standard of right and wrong by which I could judge myself and the world.

Heh, you think that the Law doesn't apply to you. That makes me laugh a little. biggrin

Of course the Law applies to me, the Law applies to everyone. I just choose not to observe it because I don't care for religious law. I'll stick with secular laws, thank you.  

[Knatalie9]

I do believe in generational curses, however, I believe that Jesus can cure anything! Through His salvation, and through it only we are washed free of all sins, and only through Him can all curses leave us.  

[bealfeal]

Paranormal Zombiiie

Galad Damodred

(Exodus 20:5) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

(Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."

(Deuteronomy 5:9) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

Does this mean that people are punished for the sins of the great-grandfathers and things? O_O'

That may have been what was happening. But since Jesus died on the cross, he paid for all the sins. D: Thats how I see it.

I agree with this, as christians aren't we suppose to follow jesus's law and not the ways of the old testmant because we are forgivien?  

[Samsoonie]

bealfeal

Paranormal Zombiiie

Galad Damodred

(Exodus 20:5) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

(Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."

(Deuteronomy 5:9) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"

Does this mean that people are punished for the sins of the great-grandfathers and things? O_O'

That may have been what was happening. But since Jesus died on the cross, he paid for all the sins. D: Thats how I see it.

I agree with this, as christians aren't we suppose to follow jesus's law and not the ways of the old testmant because we are forgivien?

"Jesus' law" comes from the laws in the old testament. We don't just disregard the old because the new came along, that's why there are two testaments in the bible not just one. Remember that the law wasn't created to keep us from heaven but it was created to help us be better people to one another.  

[Ophelianime]

heart sweatdrop  

[Monergism]

Galad Damodred

Does this mean that people are punished for the sins of the great-grandfathers and things? O_O'

"The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, 'The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.'" ~ Exodus 34:6-7

I know it's tough to swallow but God will not clear the guilty without some satisfaction to his justice. Visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children. He may justly do it, for all souls are his, and there is a malignity in sin that taints the blood. He sometimes will do it, especially for the punishment of idolaters. Therefore he shows his hatred to sin, and displeasure against it. Yet he doesn’t keep his anger forever, but visits to the third and fourth generation only, while he keeps his mercy for thousands. We must remember that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for our sin.