Baptism, Oaths, and the Heathen Father

[PhantomPhoenix0]

... a.k.a. what the ******** should I do?

Ok, many regulars should know that I am Asatru and a father. Anyway, my girlfriend told me that her mother is really getting anxious to baptize my son. Both my girlfriend and I are against the idea since we do not believe in baptizing infants (setting aside the whole we aren't Christian thing). This being said, her mom thinks that we "owe" it to her, since she is the primary babysitter.

This is where I'm really getting torn, since we are still dependant on her to watch our son (I work part time and still attend College. My girlfriend works fulltime as a Teacher's Assistant), but at the same time, selling out our beliefs as a means of saying thank you seems... almost insulting to me.

Further, we have every intention of raising our son to make his own religious choices, and getting him baptized goes against our wishes. For me, one of the biggest concerns I have is with my standing when it comes to oaths. I'm already sitting on a broken oath with YHVH, and to make up for that, I am doing everything in my power to never break another Oath. All the baptisms I've wittnesed at my parent's church involve the parents swearing to raise the child Christian (which I have no intention of doing), and a presenting of the child as "a child of God" (rough paraphrase, its been a while).

So it seems to me that my choices are reveal our beliefs to my girlfriends mom, which she would then use as a reason to refuse to watch my son anymore, and most likely shun us until we "turn back", along with her side of the family. Or we could go along with it, which could involve me making an oath I have no intention of keeping, and will leave me and my girlfriend betraying our beliefs. Knowing all of this, what is my best choice here?  

[miserabelle]

You don't owe her anything when it comes to your child, as a grandmother she shouldn't be bribing you into getting your son baptised, just because she does (as grandmothers do) a lot of babysitting.

If I were Christian I wouldn't want to be responsible for a child entering my faith, because those were my wishes, because I'd know full well that the reasons for the baptism were ones of obligation rather than a true desire to bring the child up using that set of beliefs, those values. Have you explained to her that you'd rather let him make his own decision when he's old enough to understand? Religion isn't something to be taken lightly, oaths shouldn't be taken for such shallow reasons. I find it disrespectful to all involved.

It's such a difficult situation, I really sympathise. I hope you reach a solution xx  

[niamhybeag]

I don't think you're under any obligation whatsoever to baptise the child. Not to your girlfriend's mother, to her family or to your family. It's your child, and it's up to you to make the best decision in regards to its upbringing.

You don't necessarily have to explain your beliefs to the grandparents either. Just saying that you're not practicing Christians yourselves and leave it at that, while reminding them that you want the child to make up his own mind when he's old enough.

I hope you find a workable solution to this.  

[too2sweet]

Maybe you could find a non-denominational minister, who would be willing to perform a ceremony that would let you keep to your beliefs but satisfy your MIL as well. You might have to be creative in your wording of things, but if it gets her off your back, it might be the best way to go.  

[Recursive Paradox]

I know that I make certain allowances for my family's Christianity. For instance I go to church with them on holidays, although I don't take communion and I don't kneel during the prayers. This is mostly because those are elements of worship and my belief system forbids worship of any being.

And that's sort of the crux of the matter. You can make allowances but you shouldn't push your own beliefs to the wayside for theirs. This baptism is far above and beyond say, letting your child go to the church with them when he visits them after he's older.

Especially since it is a pretty ridiculously big oath to make to YHVH for a child that isn't guaranteed to become Christian.

I think you should insist that such an oath is not made unless the child himself decides he wants it. It's possible in virtually every Christianity sect that I'm aware of to obtain a baptism as an adult or an older child so it isn't like he's screwed if he does want to go that route later.

I dunno if she really would stop babysitting your son just because you refused baptism. That strikes me as unlikely if she actually cares about her grandchild.

Even if she cares more about him being a Christian, babysitting allows her to still be close to your family and try to influence his views. So it just doesn't seem likely to me that she would cut the babysitting off even if you refused baptism.  

[CuAnnan]

Your girlfriend's mother is bang out of line.

She should not be pressuring you to baptise a child, it is morally repugnant. Blackmailing, even by implication rather than deed, you into baptising a child is not something I can reconcile with Christianity. Choice, especially informed choice, is something that should be respected but FFS, honour your mother and father.  

[PhantomPhoenix0]

CuAnnan

Choice, especially informed choice, is something that should be respected but FFS, honour your mother and father.

I'm confused here. Are you saying that regardless of how far out of line the request is, I should still honor it? Or are you saying something else that I'm not catching?

LadyBanhammer

I dunno if she really would stop babysitting your son just because you refused baptism. That strikes me as unlikely if she actually cares about her grandchild.
...
So it just doesn't seem likely to me that she would cut the babysitting off even if you refused baptism.

I agree that it wouldn't be likely, but she aparently missed out on the whole Law of Agape message. We are talking about the woman who believes that all Asians (especially Japanese) are inherrantly evil, and judges them as such, but doesnt believe its wrong to judge them. In short, she doesn't make much sense, so it could range from nothing, to stopping babysitting, to attempting to keep the child away from me.

too2sweet

Maybe you could find a non-denominational minister, who would be willing to perform a ceremony that would let you keep to your beliefs but satisfy your MIL girlfriend's mother as well.

From what I was told, it would be a friend of their familiy doing the baptism, as he is a pastor. Given some of her friends... interesting views, I dont know if he'd be willing to preform such a ceremony.  

[too2sweet]

Quote:

From what I was told, it would be a friend of their familiy doing the baptism, as he is a pastor. Given some of her friends... interesting views, I dont know if he'd be willing to preform such a ceremony.

Set something up yourself and send her the invitation at the last minute so that she can't make you change it. She won't be able to complain (much blaugh ), since you did have a baptism (of sorts), and she would look really silly trying to make you have another one.

Otherwise, I don't know what to say. It's a really tough situation. It sucks that her friend is a pastor, because when I tried to get my son baptised (before I "saw the light" blaugh ), most of the churches I talked with then said they waited until the children were older to do them. (maybe I was just talking to the wrong churches)  

[Sivirs]

I think you can pull this one off without actually revealing your *religious* beliefs. Everyone in the Bible was baptized as an adult - use that, and the fact that some denominations DO wait until the child's old enough to consent (the Catholics tend to meet halfway and have Confirmation, where the kid will CONFIRM that they agree with the baptism of their childhood, and granted they're still young enough that it's not much of a choice, but the idea is already there in canon for you), to present your argument.

It doesn't have to be about your religious beliefs - if you don't mind lies of omission, you can just let her think you're being very fundamentalist Christians by wanting your child to, y'know, willingly enter into a loving covenant with God or whatever, because you feel that would be the only way to truly do God's will.

Or however you wanna phrase it.  

[Recursive Paradox]

PhantomPhoenix0

LadyBanhammer

I dunno if she really would stop babysitting your son just because you refused baptism. That strikes me as unlikely if she actually cares about her grandchild.
...
So it just doesn't seem likely to me that she would cut the babysitting off even if you refused baptism.

I agree that it wouldn't be likely, but she aparently missed out on the whole Law of Agape message. We are talking about the woman who believes that all Asians (especially Japanese) are inherrantly evil, and judges them as such, but doesnt believe its wrong to judge them. In short, she doesn't make much sense, so it could range from nothing, to stopping babysitting, to attempting to keep the child away from me.

You know, with a person like that? I would prefer her not being anywhere near a child of mine. Even for babysitting. That level of screwed up bigotry is not something I want near a kid.

Is there some way to find another babysitter?  

[Deoridhe]

Another option is to discuss with her your value of letting your child decide when he is of an age to do so. You could look into Baptist views on Baptism if you want some arguments within her possible thinking line. Letting your son decide for himself what he wants to do with all the material you can get him is a valid choice, and one she should respect.

While it may be tempting to cave, that sets you up to cave all along the line. Chances are she will try to make your son her religion in order to "save" him. Within your family you need to come up with a way to navigate this.  

[CuAnnan]

PhantomPhoenix0

CuAnnan

Choice, especially informed choice, is something that should be respected but FFS, honour your mother and father.

I'm confused here. Are you saying that regardless of how far out of line the request is, I should still honor it? Or are you saying something else that I'm not catching

Sorry for the confusion.
I am saying that your mother is putting her needs ahead of those of your child.
In order for your wife/girlfriend/babymammy to adhere to the tennet she must force your child to abandon it.
It's an impossible situation to reconsile with the commandment.
Unless you tell your babymammymammy to ******** off, only nicely.  

[Ulfrikr inn Hrafn]

Heilsan,

According to our ancestral traditions, you owe the woman nothing. The fact that she assists you by child-minding is no reason to force you to have the child Baptised.

I understand that you are in a tight position, both financially and due to commitments, and that is the unfortunate reality of the modern world, but to have to engage in dishonourable conduct to make ends meet is a very difficult asking point.

I personally would flatly refuse, regardless of the consequences. There are always ways and means around things, and you may find that you have other options at hand. Talk to your College, and see if there is any assistance available for parents, or other means to enable you to study and work.

Ultimately, you may just have to stand up for the Folkways and put yourself out there. I know that there is every possibility that her and the family will turn around and shun you because of it, but sometimes there is little choice in the matter.

At the end of the day, you need to make the choice based on your own needs and that of your girlfriend and son.

Perhaps something to think about is what happens if you and your girlfriend choose to Marry one day in a Germanic ceremony?

I would also consider that her attitudes are something that I would rather not expose a child to for any length of time.

Ver thu heil