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Christian Origins

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Labores Luna

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:18 pm
I want to learn more about the details of pre-Christianity (and possibly Judaism/Islam?) and its transition to Christianity or Abrahamic religions in general, including the history of Jesus (including the symbolism, or similar gods before him...) and/or the transition to the modern idea of him from an unbiased perspective (not just authors that are Christian). I’m just asking for some book recommendations or of authors in this subject that speak about it in a somewhat clear, in depth way. Thank you.

Also, just as a side question. If you accept the definition of pagan (if there is just one) as a person that is not in a Abrahamic religion, is the term “Christo-Pagan” completely contradictory, or does it have some substance to you? What if it was somebody, for example, that primarily honored pagan gods, but also included Jesus and parts of the Bible into their practice? And if “Christian Pagan” was at all relative, then what is Pagan to you? Thoughts?  
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:22 pm
I am compiling some sources for the first part of the question...
As for Non-Abrahamic believers in the divinity of Jeushua, there are several.
The Baha'i faith considers him one of the Great Teachers, and he is included as Amesha in some Zoroastrian sects.  

Fiddlers Green


TatteredAngel

PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:48 am
I'll address your side question because the first is lovely and complicated and I don't have anything that can be easily dug up on it. Also, I just got up.

I think "Christo-pagan" is kind of a silly term, but that doesn't mean that elements of one can't appear in the other. There are some types of magic that are acceptable within the bounds of Christianity. So while one can't be a Christian-pagan, one can be Christian and a mystic, or engage in some kinds of magic. And there's room to believe that parts of the Bible make good sense if you are not Christian. As Fiddler said, plenty of people think Jesus is a pretty cool guy-- they just have differing beliefs on the nature of that coolness.  
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:17 am
I thought about this the other day. I'm surprised there is no Dionysian-Christianity, because from their perspective, it should seem that Christ already came once before, and he came as Dionysus, and then he came a second time, as Christ. If you want my rather blunt opinion, it seems overwhelmingly likely that Christianity is just the traditions and beliefs of Dionysian or Mithraic mystery religions projected over an abrahamic core. Examine the writings of Celsus, who pointed out that the crucifixion, wine rite, mortal mother, trinity, and salvation aspects of Christianity were all similiar to the Dionysian tradition. Christian apologists charged, in turn, that Satan had sent predictions of christ back in time to mislead people before he had actually shown up.

The same thing happened with the Persian Mithra. This website can explain that better than I. Supposedly Christmas, as we celebrate it, actually occurs on Mithra's day.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra_3.htm

As for Judaic connections with pagan people, you should turn to Babylonians, Sumerians, and Canaanites. There are many parallels between them, notably that the same actions which YHVH performs to create man (molding us from clay and then "breathing" life into us.) are performed by TWO gods according to the Sumerians and Babylonians, with Enki molding us from clay, and his brother Enlil breathing life into us. I also posted something pertaining to this on the Pathways thread called "Judeo-Wiccan" I believe.
 

Nomad of Nowhere


Labores Luna

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:39 pm
Fiddlers Green: I’m looking forward to your list. That is a good point.

TatteredAngel:
True as well. Elements of Christianity aren’t limited to just, well, Christians. It has been integrated into other practices, traditions, and folk-beliefs as well. I was mostly referring to people who consider themselves a "Pagan Christian" because they felt that they practiced relatively equal amounts of both.

Teague the Druid: I would not go so far as to say that the Bible is solely based off only a couple of sects, but then again, I don’t know that for sure. I’m really just looking for some more detailed accounts and archaeological findings, just not necessarily a very heavy and dry 1000-page text.

Even some good starting points would be nice.  
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:12 pm
If you're looking for the origins of Christianity then archaeology is a good place to start given finds in the last 100 years of stone as well as historical discoveries. The dead sea scrolls and books around that subject being a good start.

Interesting links:
http://www.thetechherald.com/article.php/200828/1440/Ancient-stone-tablet-may-prove-resurrection-predated-Jesus-Christ

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2008/07/the-ancient-scr.html

A more interesting question is what about the messiah that pre-dates Christ? What is the impact of that?

Name That Messiah - Jesus or Mithra ?
http://www.designprophet.co.uk/2008/02/14/name-that-messiah-jesus-or-mithra/

The Messiah before Jesus
http://www.amazon.com/Messiah-before-Jesus-Suffering-Foundation/dp/product-description/0520234006  

Anarchy4Freedom


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:35 am
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/  
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