~The Golden Compass: All Christians NEED to Read this!~

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Lyneun

The sn actually has an important meaning to me, believe it or not. wink

Now I feel really bad. sweatdrop I'm sorry~~ ^^;;;

Lyneun

I'm almost done with the first book. Just reached Pt 3 last night. I can say one thing thus far: Pullman is a genius. I felt every emotion the characters did, especially the horror and sorrow with certain events in the latter half of the book.

EDIT: I finished the book. (suprise) Tell me how you all would like me to go about with the info I have. I could just give you my underlined text groups and let you draw your own conclusions, but I don't have time now. Let me know.

Highlight the important parts. I'm curious to know in what sense the book was anti-Christian/anti-Catholic and to what degree. I guess, maybe just do a Christian book review (if you can). I'm so curious.

I'm so afraid to read the books myself because I don't want to get so outraged at the message that I miss out on a good story. My best friend is reading them and loves them, and she says they were anti-Christian in the same way Angel Sanctuary (the anime) was anti-Christian. But I'm not sure exactly what that means since I've only watched the anime once close to five or six years ago. sweatdrop  

[-xXGodslayer_RaiXx-]

By telling people not to watch it or read it is only going to spark people's curiosity and they would want to see how bad it is for themselves. All you're really doing is advertsing it. You're helping Pullman and the producers out. It's like the Muslim community banning people from seeing Kite Runner (they even asked to take the scene out) because a kid gets raped in the movie and in the book.

And I believe that Pullman isn't really anti-Christian. He just doesn't believe in some of things. He has talks with pastors and such. I remember seeing it on CNN. There are many Christians who do actually agree with him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Pullman#Biography .

You might as well call Anne Rice anti-Catholic because she wrote about vampires. Though in Memnoch the Devil and beyond she wrote about God and Lestat becoming religious.

For Christ's sake you might as well call me anti-Chrisitan because I'm into vampires, witches and such. I still have 4 of Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles books and at least 4 books of Cate Tiernan's SWEEP series (a series about Wiccans).  

[Lyneun]

Okay, here we go.


The Golden Compass

On Lyra's Destiny:
"There is a curious prophesy about this child: she is destined to bring about the end of destiny. But she must do so without knowing what she is doing, as if it were her nature and not her destiny to do it. If she's told what she must do, it will all fail; death will sweep through all the worlds; it will be the triumph of despair, forever. The universes will all become nothing more than interlocking machines, blind and empty of thought, feeling, life..."

-The witch Serafina Pekkala speaking with Lee Scoresby.
-Chapter 18: Fog and Ice



Dust and the Church:
"Witches have never worried about Dust. All I can tell you is where there are priests, there is fear of Dust. Mrs Coulter is not a priest, of course, but she is a powerful agent of the Magisterium, and it was she who set up the Oblation Board and persuaded the Church to pay for Bolvangar, because of her interest in Dust. We can't understand her feelings about it. But there are many things we have never understood. So Dust may be strange, and we wonder at it, but we don't fret and tear things apart to examine it. Leave that to the Church."

-Bolvangar was an institute that seperated a child from their daemon, which is the equivalent of seperating a person from their soul.
-Serafina Pekkala speaking with Lyra.
-Chapter 18: Fog and Ice


Genesis
"The Magisterium decided that Dust was the physical evidence for original sin."

{further down the page}

"He returned to Chapter Three of Genesis, and read:
"And the woman said unto the serpent,, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
"but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and your daemons shall assume their true forms, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
"And when the woman saw that the tree ws good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to reveal the true form of one's daemon, she took the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they saw the true form of their daemons, and spoke with them.
"But when the man and the woman knew their own daemons, they knew that a great change had come upon them, for until that moment it had seemed that they were at one with all the creatures of the earth and the air, and there was no difference between tehm:
"And when they saw the difference, and they knew good and evil; and they were ashamed, and they sewed fig leaves together to cover their nakedness..."
He closed the book.
"And that was how sin came into the world," he said, "sin and shame and death. It came the moment their daemons became fixed.""

-This is Lord Asriel speaking with Lyra.
-Chapter 21: Lord Asriel's Welcome


Dust and Original Sin:
"When Rusakov discovered Dust, at last there was physical proof that something happened when innocence changed into experience.
"Incidentally, the Bible gave us the name Dust as well. At first they were called Rusacov Particles, but soon someone pointed out a curious verse toward the end of the Third Chapter of Genesis, where God's cursing Adam for eating the fruit."
He opened the Bible again and pointed it out to Lyra. She read:
"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return..."
Lord Asriel said, "Church scholars have always puzzled over the translation of that verse. Some say it should read not 'unto dust shalt thou return' but 'thou shalt be subject to dust,' and other say the whole verse is a kind of pun on the words 'ground' and 'dust,' and it really means that God's admitting his own nature to be partly sinful. No one agrees. No one can, because the text is corrupt. But it was too good to waste, and that's why the particles became known as Dust."

-Again, Lord Asriel speaking with Lyra.
-Chapter 21: Lord Asriel's Welcome


the Church:
"It suits the Magisterium to allow all kinds of different agencies to flourish. They can play them off against one another; if one succeeds, they can pretend to have been supporting it all along, and if it fails, they can pretend it was a renegade outfit which had never been properly licensed."

-Lord Asriel speaking with Lyra.
-Chapter 21: Lord Asriel's Welcome


On Bolvangar and "cutting" away daemons:
"There was a precedent. Something like it had happened before. Do you know what the word castration means? It means removing the sexual organs of a boy so that he never develops the characteristics of a man. A castrato keeps his high voice all his life, which is why the Church allowed it: so useful in Church music. Some castrati became great singers, wonderful artists. Many just became spoiled half-men. Some died from the effects of the operation. But the Church wouldn't flinch at the idea of a little cut, you see. There was a precedent. And this would be so much more hygenic than the old methods, when they didn't have anesthetics or seterile bandages or proper nursing care. It would be gentle by comparison."
"It isn't!" Lyra said fiercely. "It isn't!"
"No. Of course not. That's why they had to hide away in the far North, in darkness and obscurity. And why the Church was glad to have someone like your mother in charge. But because it was an obscure and unofficial kind of operation, she was someone the Magisterium could eny if they needed to, as well."

-Lord Asriel speaking with Lyra.
-Mrs. Coulter is Lyra's mother, as Lord Asriel is her father.
-Chapter 21: Lord Asriel's Welcome


Dust/Original Sin is good:
""And the Oblation Board and the Church and Bolvangar and Mrs. Coulter and all, they want to destroy it too, don't they?"
"Yeah...Or stop it affecting people...Why?"
"Because if they all think Dust is bad, it must be good."
She didn't speak. A little hiccup of excitement leaped in her chest.
Pantalaimon went on:
"We've heard them all talk about Dust, and they're so afraid of it, and you know what? We believed them, even though we couldsee that what they were doing was wicked and evil and wrong...We thought Dust must be bad too, because they were grown up and they said so. But what if it isn't? What if it's--"
She said breathlessly, "Yeah! What if it's really good..."
If Dust were a good thing...if it were to be sought and welcomed and cherished..."

-Lyra speaking with her daemon, Pantalaimon.
-Chapter 23: The Bridge to the Stars

I ommited one. It wasn't a religious reference, but a reference to the multiple world theory, which the book hinges on. I shall post my opinion if it is asked for. Forthcoming are religious references from The Subtle Knife and the Amber Spyglass.  

[Lyneun]

The Subtle Knife

Lord Asriel's Plans:
"I think he's a-waging a higher war than that. I think he's aiming a rebellion against the highest power of all. He's gone a-searching for the dwelling place of the Authority Himself, and he's a-going to destroy Him. That's what I think. It shakes my heart to voice it ma'am. I hardly dare think of it. But I can't put together any other story that makes sense of what he's doing."

-Thorold (Asriel's servant) speaking with Serafina Pekkala.
-Chapter 2: Among the Witches

Angels:
"If angels couldn't do it, how can a man dare to think about it?"
"Angels, what are angels?"
"Beings of pure spirit, the Church says. The Church teaches that some of the angels rebelled before the world was created, and got flung out of heaven and into hell. They failed, you see, that's the point. They couldn't do it. And they had the power of angels. Lord Asriel is just a man, with human power, no more than that. But his ambition is limitless. He dares to do what men and women don't even dare to think. And look what he's done already: he's torn open the sky, he's opened the way to another world. Who else has ever done that? Who else could think of it? So with one part of me, Serafina Pekkala, I say he's mad, wicked, deranged. Yet with another part I think he's Lord Asriel, he's not like other men. Maybe...if it was ever going to be possible, it'd be done by him and no one else."

-Thorold speaking with Serafina Pekkala.
-Chapter 2: Among the Witches


The Church's Despicable History:
"Sisters," she began, "let me tell you what is happening, and who it is that we must fight. For there is a war coming. I don't know who will join with us, but I know whom we must fight. It is the Magisterium, the Church. For all its history--and that's not long by our lives, but it's many, many of theirs--it's tried to suppress and control every natural impulse. And when it can't control them, it cuts them out. Some of you have seen what they did at Bolvangar. And that was horrible, but it is not the only such place, not the only such practice. Sisters, you know only the north; I have traveled in the south lands. There are churches there, believe me, that cut their children too, as the people of Bolvangar did--not in the same way, but just as horribly. They cut their sexual organs, yes, both boys and girls; they cut them with knives so that they shan't feel. That is what the Church does, and every church is the same: control, destroy, obliterate every good feeling. So if a war comes, and the Church is on one side of it, we must be on the other, no matter what strange allies we find ourselves bound to."

-Serafina Pekkala speaking to the gathered witch clans.
-Chapter 2: Among the Witches


Rebelling is Good:
"He showed me that to rebel was right and just, when you considered what the agents of the Authority did in His name..."

-The witch Ruta Skadi speaking Serafina Pekkala and a handful of witches.
-As a side note, this is the only mythological reference I really noticed. Skadi is a norse god.
-Chapter 13: Aesahaettr


The Subtle Knife:
"There is a war coming, boy. The greatest war there ever was. Something like it happened before, and this time the right side must win. We've had nothing but lies and propaganda and cruelty and deceit for all the thousands of years of human history. It's time we started again, but properly this time..."
He stopped to take in several rattling breaths.
"The knife," he went on after a minute. "They never knew what they were making, those old philosophers. They invented a device that could split open the very smallest particles of matter, and they used it to steal candy. They had no idea that they'd made the one weapon in all the universes that could defeat the tyrant. The Authority. God. The rebel angels fell because they didn't have anything like the knife; but now..."

-Stanislaus Grumman/Jopari/spoiler: John Parry speaking with Will Parry.
-Chapter 15: Bloodmoss


Two Great Powers:
"There are two great powers," the man said, "and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit.
"And now those two powers are lining up for battle. And each of them wants the knife of yours more than anything else. You have to choose, boy. We've been guided here, both of us--you with the knife, and me to tell you about it."

-Stanislaus Grumman speaking with Will Parry.
-The two powers referred to are the Regent Metatron, ruler of the Kingdom of Heavan, and the rebel angels fighting for human wisdom.
-Chapter 15: Bloodmoss


What is a Daemon?
"A daemon is not an animal, of course; a daemon is a person. A real cat, face to face with a daemon in cat form, would be puzzled for a moment. She would see a human being."

-From "Lantern Slides" for The Subtle Knife  

[Lyneun]

The Amber Spyglass

The Authority:
"The Authority, God, the Creator, the Lord, Yahweh, El, Adonai, the King, the Father, the Almighty--those were all names he gave himself. He was never the creator. He was an angel like ourselves--the first angel, true, the most powerful, but he was formed of Dust as we are, and Dust is only a name for what happens when matter begins to understand itself. Matter loves matter. It seeks to know more about itself, and Dust is formed. The first angels condensed out of Dust, and the Authority was the first of all. He told those who came after him that he had created them, but it was a lie. One of those who came later was wiser than he was, and she found out the truth, so he banished her. We serve her still. And the Authority still reigns in the Kingdom, and Metatron is his Regent."

-the angel Balthamos speaking with Will Parry.
-Chapter 2: Balthamos and Baruch


The Authority's Secret:
"We found our way into the Clouded Mountain," said Baruch, and at once went on: "I'm sorry; we use these terms so easily. It's sometimes called the Chariot. It's not fixed, you see; it moves from place to place. Wherever it goes, there is the heart of the Kingdom, his citadel, his palace. When the Authority was young, it wasn't surrounded by clouds, but as time passed, he gathered them around him more and more thickly. No one has seen the summit for thousands of years. So his citadel is known now as the Clouded Mountain."
"What did you find there?"
"The Authority himself dwells in a chamber at the heart of the Mountain. We couldn't get close, although we saw him. His power--"
"He has delegated much of his power," Balthamos iterrupted, "to Metatron. You've seen what he's like. We escaped from him before, and now he's seen us again, and what is more, he's seen you, and he's seen the knife."

-the angels Baruch and Balthamos speaking with Will Parry.
-A note on names. Baruch is said to be one of the two angels (he and Raphael) who guard the Tree of Life.
-Chapter 2: Balthamos and Baruch


The World of the Dead:
"Baruch said, "Well, there is a world of the dead. Where it is, and what happens there, no one knows. My ghost, thanks to Balthamos, never went there; I am what was once the ghost of Baruch. The world of the dead is just dark to us."
"It's a prison camp," said Balthamos. "The Authority established it in the early ages.""

-Baruch and Balthamos speaking with Will Parry.
-Chapter 2: Balthamos and Baruch


Baruch's Tale:
"My name is Baruch. My companion Balthamos and I are of the rebels' party, and so we were drawn to your standard as soon as you raised it. But we wanted to bring you something valuable, because our power is small, and not long ago we managed to find out way to the heart of the Clouded Mountain, the Authority's citadel in the Kingdom. And there we learned...
"We learned the truth about the Authority. We learned that he has retired to a chamber of crystal deep within the Clouded Mountain, and that he no longer runs the daily affairs of the Kingdom. Instead, he contemplates deeper mysteries. In his place, ruling on his behalf, there is an angel called Metatron. I have reason to know that angel well, though when I knew him...
"Metatron is proud," Baruch went on when he had recovered a little strength, "and his ambition is limitless. The Authority chose him for thousand years ago to be his Regent, and they laid their plans together. They have a new plan, which my companion and I were able to discover. The Authority considers that conscious beings of every kind have become dangerously independant, so Metatron is going to intervene much more actively in human affairs. They intend to move the Authority secretly away from the Clouded Mountain, to a permanent citadel somewhere else, and turn the mountain into an engine of war. The churches in every world are corrupt and weak, he thinks, they compromise too easily...He wants to set up a permanent inquisition in every world, run directly from the Kingdom. And his first campaign will be to destroy your Republic..."

{Further down the page}

"Metatron was once Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel...Enoch had many wives. He was a lover of the flesh."

-Baruch, former brother of Enoch, speaking with Lord Asriel.
-The Republic referred to is Lord Asriel's ambition: the Republic of Heaven.
-Chapter 5: The Adamant Tower


Lyra is Eve:
"The child, then, is in the position of Eve, the wife of Adam, the mother of us all, and the cause of all sin."

{Further down the page}

"Please remember--the alethiometer does not forecast; it says, 'If certain things come about, then the consequences will be...' and so on. And it says that if it comes about that the child was tempted as Eve was, then she is likely to fall. On the outcome will depend...everything. And if this temptation does take place, and if the child gives in, then Dust and sin will triumph."

-Fra Pavel, the Magisterium's alethiometrist, speaking with the President of the Magisterium.
-An alethiometer (aka: the golden compass) is a symbol reader, answering questions not just in a "yes/no" context, but with detailed and conscious responses. It is fueled by Dust.
-Chapter 6: Preemptive Absolution


Magisterium's Goal:
"The Oblation Board sought to understand the effects of Dust; we must destroy it alltogether. Nothing less than that. If in order to destroy Dust we also have to destroy the Oblation Board, the College of Bishops, every single agency by which the Holy Church does the work of the Authority--then so be it. It may be, gentlemen, that the Holy church itself was brought into being to perform this very task and to perish in the doing of it. But better a world with no Church and no Dust than a world where every day we have to struggle under the hideous burden of sin. Better a world purged of all that!"

-The President of the Magisterium speaking to a collection of church officials.
-The Oblation Board set up and ran the travesty of Bolvangar.
-Chapter 6: Preemptive Absolution


God is Dead:
"Well, where is God," said Mrs. Coulter, "if he's alive? And why doesn't he speak anymore? At the beginning of the world, God walked in the Garden and spoke with Adam and Eve. Then he began to withdraw, and he forbade Moses to look at his face. Later, in the time of Daniel, he was aged--he was the Ancient of Days. Where is he now? Is he still alive, at some inconceivable age, decrepit and demented, unable to think or act or speak and unable to die, a rotten hulk? Ad if that is his conditino, wouldn't it be the most merciful thing, the truest proof of our love for God, to seek him out and give him the gift of death?"

-Mrs. Coulter speaking to the President of the Magisterium.
-Chapter 24: Mrs. Coulter in Geneva


The Regent Metatron:
"With the Regent at the reins. He's concealed himself well, this Metatron. They speak of him in the apocryphal scriptures: he was a man once, a man called Enoch, the son of Jared--six generations away from Adam. And now he rules the Kingdom. And he's intending to do more than that, if that angel they found by the sulphur lake was correct--the one who entered the Clouded Mountain to spy. If he wins this battle, he intends to intervene directly in human life. Imagine that, Ogunwe--a permanent Inquisition, worse than anything the Consitorial Court of Discipline could dream up, staffed by spies and traitors in every world and directed personally by the intelligence that's keeping that mountain aloft...The old Authority at least had the grace to withdraw; the dirty work of burning heretics and hanging witches was left to his priests. This new one will be far, far worse."

-Lord Asriel speaking with King Ogunwe.
-Chapter 28: Midnight

Christianity by Name:
"I thought physics could be done to the glory of God, till I saw there wasn't any God at all and that physics was more interesting anyway. The Christian religion is a very powerful and convincing mistake, that's all."

-Mary Malone, Lyra's "serpent", speaking with Lyra and Will Parry.
-Chapter 33: Marzipan


EDIT: It struck me some people might not know who Metatron or Enoch are...

Metatron, officially--I believe--ranked Seraphim; he is the Voice of God. Take all the implications you want from that. Enoch was a mortal man, yes, less than ten generations from Adam, who was taken into Heaven and shown through the Seven (I think) Heavens. He then returned to earth to pass on what he saw before he died. He brought back information on the Nephilim and the Watcher angels who fell from grace.  

[IkaruTiger]

I have seen the movie but I am saying that it is bad for children to see. The thing that worries me the most is that children are refering to their spirit as a demon. Don't play with the darkness, if you ask a demon to be a part of you, they will gladly posses you. You need descetion and you need to know what you believe when you see the film. This "athiest" is clearly more into the occult than he would admit to being.  

[Edge of Ether]

hmm

It is this kind of thing that will confuse children. Even with guidance, this can easily corrupt the pure heart of a child.

As a mature adult Christian, the choice of whether you read/see this literature is between you and God.

*However*, for any Christian parents, i feel that it would be irresponsible to let a child read the books or see the film(s?).

And in all honesty, the thing that worries me the most is how rebellion is encouraged. God's Word specifically states that rebellion is evil.

The reason i wanted to point out the rebellion thing is that it is likely something to be overlooked by most Christians and parents...




Also, i have read many interviews with the Author, and he has said many times that he is against our beliefs. The fun part is after the interview he does what most politicians do: he "corrects" his words later on. He has said that he hopes his books will teach children that God is not real, that Christians are putting hope in nothing, and many more similar phrases.

He has made quite plain on several occasions that he is specifically atheist, and that he specifically wants children to become atheist.

And he also argues that "Narnia is Racist, sexist, and has nothing to do with love." that is an actual quote, that i remember very well thanks to how utterly wrong it is ._.


Sadly, i cannot find the text files with his interviews. ._. /sigh


Well, i am very glad you listed those points, Lyneun, just reading those things i see that this is certainly not a book for children, or new Christians for that matter.

Be wary of things such as this...


God bless you all, and I pray for each one of you to have peace of mind! ^_^