Europe

[loIitoads]

So, what do you guys think about Britain as a part of Europe, a part of the E.U., or a seperate entity that has a say in things? Personally, I'm all for a united Europe, though I realise that for the time being, it benefits us more to stay a seperate financial entity... I don't think we're going to culturally disintergrate, for Britain is too strongly marked off from the rest of Europe, and I personally enjoy European culture anyway.  

[Invictus_88]

Personally, it's not about cultural identity. That doesn't worry me much at all.

For me it is about self-determination and flexibility. With this ever-tighter union (as opposed to a perfectly agreeable economic trading group) we lose elements of sovereignty without any resultant benefit beyond that which would would have anyway by virtue of being in the EU.

No less, the EU is a good thing. Overall.  

[loIitoads]

Invictus_88

Personally, it's not about cultural identity. That doesn't worry me much at all.

For me it is about self-determination and flexibility. With this ever-tighter union (as opposed to a perfectly agreeable economic trading group) we lose elements of sovereignty without any resultant benefit beyond that which would would have anyway by virtue of being in the EU.

No less, the EU is a good thing. Overall.

Good to see someone with a decent criticism of the E.U. It's something that worries me too, how it concentrates on useless things (how milk is packaged, for example...) However, I do feel like such things are a small sacrifice, an the idea of a European Super-state at some point in the future is something which I personally find quite exciting.

Additionally, who would you rather influenced our culture, the Americans or the rest of Europe? XD  

[Invictus_88]

Frankly, I can see a lot to love and a lot to hate in both cultures. And in both cases the 'High Culture' is better than the low, and the best of American culture is better than much of European culture. The problem seems to be with the aspects of US culture that get most readily transmitted.

By comparison; it would be like the British Empire keeping education, law and industry inside its own borders, whilst exporting only street-urchins, cholera and rough gin.

Why do you like the idea of a super-state? It's exciting, but in a bad way. It worries me profoundly, and I may even be tempted to take up arms against such a move.  

[Mr. Bono Vox]

I object to a political EU in which the nation state is obliterated. Since Westphalia a nation states sovereignty has remained pretty much intact and I want to see that stay that way.

History has a lot to teach us, Westphalia was about limiting the power of autocratic rulers and bringing about freedom of religion. Without the sovereignty of nation states, and with a revival of this thought of a united Europe (it's not new, Holy Roman Empire, Nazism etc etc)

I fear a crackdown on our freedoms. For example, how does a citizen of an EU super state halt a perhaps unjust piece of legislation produced by the EUSS? He can't do it through his Parliament because it's no longer an option (Factortame being the famous example of that) and he won't be able to do it though the courts if the new reform treaty makes it. The ECJ will have total power over what is legal and what is not legal.

Furthermore, how can an EU president or government be accountable to a population of 500m+? It just can't so how can it be allowed to take tax? No tax without representation!

While I fully support the co-operation on economic issues which is needed to protect Britain in a globalised age, I cannot say a political EUSS is desirable, or in fact, even needed.  

[loIitoads]

Mr. Bono Vox

I object to a political EU in which the nation state is obliterated. Since Westphalia a nation states sovereignty has remained pretty much intact and I want to see that stay that way.

History has a lot to teach us, Westphalia was about limiting the power of autocratic rulers and bringing about freedom of religion. Without the sovereignty of nation states, and with a revival of this thought of a united Europe (it's not new, Holy Roman Empire, Nazism etc etc)

I fear a crackdown on our freedoms. For example, how does a citizen of an EU super state halt a perhaps unjust piece of legislation produced by the EUSS? He can't do it through his Parliament because it's no longer an option (Factortame being the famous example of that) and he won't be able to do it though the courts if the new reform treaty makes it. The ECJ will have total power over what is legal and what is not legal.

Furthermore, how can an EU president or government be accountable to a population of 500m+? It just can't so how can it be allowed to take tax? No tax without representation!

While I fully support the co-operation on economic issues which is needed to protect Britain in a globalised age, I cannot say a political EUSS is desirable, or in fact, even needed.

Fair points, and I don't myself believe that any executive is trustworthy enough to entirely rule the continent. More than a degree of economic co-operation is required, however. The idea of nation states needs to be revised, not totally, but through a slower process leading perhaps to super-states composed of smaller bodies. As for crackdowns on personal freedoms, the government of a united Europe would have no cause or real reason for cutting freedoms.
Taxes, certainly, would have to take part on a local level (although not totally, obviously a smaller pan-national tax would be taken).

For the time being, however, Sterling remains strong and there is no call for a merger. I only call into question the tedious inflexability of British culture.  

[A Lost Iguana]

Can we find aliens already?  

[[Finrod]]

Bono Vox and Invi have summarised my own feelings on Europe better than I could have done myself.

Actually, on the EU. It's not the same as Europe, after all smile

The idea of cooperation was great. The execution, however ...

Why does the EU have to dictate that we put VAT on heating fuel?

What has the EU to do with our railways? When they were privatised, they had to be done with rolling stock, lines and operators separated by EU diktat - and we've seen how well that's worked! When they were private before (and very successful - the Guardian warned about the risks to the excellent railway systems on nationalisation in 1947 or so - and the Guardian was hardly the ideologue of private ownership smile ), they were allowed to be internally integrated. Why is this an EU competence?

Why does the EU bully countries trade-wise? (I'm thinking about Thailand (by memory) shortly after the tsunami being informed that if they didn't want their exports to the EU to be subject to a six-fold tariff increase, they'd better order a few A380s - that kind of stuck in the memory)

With the Euro - good job we didn't sign up. Or what would the inflation (in general, but housing prices in particular) have been like after 6 years of interest rates about 2% lower than they actually were?

The frustrating thing is - co-operation in areas where we could best pull our weight internationally is a great idea. A free marketplace with no internal tariffs - great! Sending Peter Mandelson out of the country for good - wonderful (actually, I've got to give the EU credit - that is a tangible benefit smile )

But I don't like the idea of a single superstate. Strength through diversity - that's what wins out in Darwin's great race. Keep all our diversity in Europe, each state with its internal democratic accountability. Working together within a loose European Union on economic and environmental issues - but not fiscal or governmental.