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 Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:01 am
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PixieofDestruction Cheeto Bandito Forgives us for what though? I never asked Him to give me life. He just did. So if I decide to hurt other people during my life, so what? For lots of things. C'mon, you're not a child. You know what is good and what isn't just by instinct, not because it was taught to you. And yes, there is a lot of grey area when it comes to everything.
No, 'morals' are not instinct. You learn it from TV, parents, friends, environment, etc.. So yes, it is taught to you.
For example: When you're a little kid and you knock over your bowl of food on purpose or even by accident, your parents will get mad at you and you know it's "wrong" to do so.
Not all parents get mad, but this is just an example.
(As for things such as murder etc, see some of my next answers, unless it isn't clear to you, then ask me to clarify why I think even murder isn't considered 'wrong' or 'bad' by instinct and I'll do so)
I study Law at university, and they recently explained to us the concept of Law of Nature & Positive law
Those who strongly believe in the law of nature, call 'morals' a basis for law, however a mentally ill person doesn't have 'morals'.
So the opposition, those who strongly believe in Positive law, believe that the behaviour of man isn't defined by nature/default (morals), therefore we need laws & consequences for violation of those human created laws.
Thus, law/society/other people tells us what's good & bad. Not instinct.
For example:
If there wasn't a law to punish murderers or to "protect" people from it, everyone could kill anyone and in the eyes of 'society' murder is considered 'wrong' and would bring 'chaos.'
Why does society consider it wrong? Because people fear death/pain and murder brings death/pain.
Quote: Good & bad/evil don't exist. Right or wrong doesn't exist. It only exists cause society makes it that way. So other people will punish me or forgive me or whatever. Not God.
Quote: Our legal "punishing" is very lenient. The death penalty isn't done a lot in the US and its not like in Arab countries where you get you hand chopped off on the spot if you steal something. There is good and bad. Example: There are millions of children who get abused every day. Physically, mentally and sexually. So that's no different from something good?
Your example only enforces my argument that there is no right or wrong/good or bad.
For example:
Why would it be wrong to abuse children? Because people fear 'abuse' and they will ask themselves in just a split second in which the thought isn't actually consciously processed, "what if it was me that was getting abused like that?" and by that, they come to the conclusion it is wrong.
Same thing I said in my previous answer.
Now to answer your question "So that's no different from something good?"
Good or bad/right or wrong are based on feelings
Feelings are subjective.
Something that might seem 'wrong' to you, may seem 'right' to someone else.
So the concept of right or wrong/good or bad existing by default doesn't apply, or it would apply to everything & everyone exactly the same, which isn't the case.
Quote: If a dog steals a cookie He won't consider it stealing, he considers it food that he wants to eat. But if you kick the dog or yell at him angrily when he takes the cookie & eats it, the dog will usually never try to eat the cookie again because he associates pain with eating that cookie. Did he think it was wrong or evil or bad? No. Only cause you say it's wrong or evil or bad by hurting him or yelling at him for it. I don't see God anywhere in here shaking his finger saying No, no, that's wrong. Bad doggy!
Quote: A dog isn't stealing a cookie with malice. What's behind evil/bad is the intention. Are you doing it with malice or is it mindless action? I don't see him shaking his finger at us either. He lets us do what we want because he gave us free will. That's what makes it rewarding to HIm, I think. Knowing that you CHOOSE to go in his path eventhough you don't have to and aren't pushed to it.
I was merely pointing out that animals don't know 'laws' as humans know it. They don't see that what they're doing as 'wrong' until someone/their owner shows that their actions have consequences they don't like.
So no, a dog isn't stealing with malice.
He has no 'intention' of stealing, his 'intention' in the first place would be eating. Not until the owner punishes him for eating that cookie, will it become stealing with the 'intention' for it in the future if the dog would repeat this behaviour.
And the same thing applied to humans before laws were set up.
Humans didn't have the 'intention' either when they did everything for the first time that we would consider 'wrong', now that it has been done for the first time, the intent will be there since it has become more or less common knowledge and forbidden by law and/or society.
(Excluding mentally ill people, this is a whole different discussion on it's own in my opinion)
And I was also pointing out that animals live instinctively by default, humans don't.
Anyway
Why bless us with free will and then punish us for using it?
It's like a test. But why test us?
If we are all equal, then why does He decide some of us are not worthy to be in His presence and will spend eternity separated from Him?
Quote: So, in my opinion, God isn't this dude or dudette or anything of form that sits up there in His so called Heaven waiting for Judgement day. I think people gave Him some sort of form, so it'd be easier for people to believe. And I think Heaven & Hell were made up by the church as a way to keep people from doing bad things as society considered them bad and to make people live their lives by church's rules, under the illusion of being rewarded in the 'afterlife.' I also think 'afterlife' was made up so that you didn't have think about becoming non-existent. Only humans worry about that. I doubt an animal would be wondering about what happened after it died. It lives right now. Whether doing things right or wrong. It's not waiting for the 'afterlife' to start living it's life. You can say that's cause animals can't actually think. But that's not true. They can think cause most mammals can dream and some birds can dream too. But instead of thinking everything a million times over like humans do, they trust their instincts.
Quote: Animals do think. They're very smart. I get where you're getting at, though. Animals don't have to think about those things because they don't have a soul. My dad also explained to me that we can't understand animals for a reason: we'd go insane: They worship God 24/7. We can't handle that, that's why we have so many questions. We really can't fathom everything and God understands that, I believe. You have very strong opinions and I find it pretty refreshing. I hope you're not getting this as I'm trying to convert you. I'm just explaining what I've learned. I don't know everything but I could get some answers. Like I said, my dad studies religion every day. He's done a few exorsisms but anything you hear from me will be from a Catholic perspective. You're protistant but a lot of our beliefs are still the same. We're all Christians. It doesn't really matter what we are, though. God loves us all equally.
I didn't say animals can't think, I said animals can think cause science proved that most mammals & some birds can dream, thoughts of some sort are required for dreams in my opinion.
Who says animals don't have a soul?
Who says humans do have a soul?
Who says animals worship God 24/7?
Animals can't talk as far as I know, so I doubt this came from one.
Did God Himself say this? And where exactly in the bible is this described/explained/told?
For other quotes from the previous thread, read next post or read them in the thread What happens after death. |
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:10 am
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...How it all started...
This discussion was started in the thread What happens after death.
So for complete quotes, go there.
Cheeto Bandito You get buried or cremated. Decompose or turn to ashes. Meaning there's just nothing. Your brain gets burned or decomposes too Your brain is the thing that makes you believe that you have a spirit/soul of some sort that'll leave the body after death. But you can't scientifically prove that your body contains a spirit/soul of some sort. I think people need to believe that there's some sort of afterlife. It makes living this life more bearable if you can trust in the fact that after you die, you'll go someplace where you'll never feel angry or upset and always feel loved & happy. A place where you'll never experience the horrible things that you see and experience in this life. A place where you'll never have to be scared. And Hell or any other afterlife place, was made up thousands of years ago To scare people and make them obey and live their life according to society's rules. Heaven was made up to offer the people comfort and some sort of prize that if they abide by the rules, they'll get rewarded in afterlife. But, in my opinion, this is it. This is all the life you get, so better start living it, before it's too late (o^-')b
PixieofDestruction I know for a fact heaven has 7 but hell I'm not so sure. I just know that there are different levels to it too. Purgatory is not hell. You eventually do leave purgatory and enter heaven. You can't leave hell. Not even Lucifer could leave hell, just his army of demons. Well, I think that his time is up to not be able to leave, is what my dad's explained to me. He's a hard core catholic. He's even performed exorcisms. Its very true. We can read about it and be told about it but no one really knows for sure till it happens to them. He is catholic, though and a big part of the religion is to believe blindly and you will see. Religion has a funny way to use words and everyone will interpret it differently and that's ok. It was meant to be that way, and so be it. Deciduzz, I really think you should go to catechizm (sp?) or have a one on one with a priest about this. He can explain far better than I can because I don't have years of knowledge of our religion like your local pirest would. If I am correct the catholic belief is the same way as the protestant. Just repent and you're good to go. What caste you're put in depends on how good you were. I forgot to mention that part, so thank you for bringing it up ^_^ I think that the Christain belief is that since they don't "know God" they can't be punished. Its only those who did and still refuse to go in his path.
Cheeto Bandito PixieofDestruction Cheeto Bandito Why would He get to decide where we go after we die? Forgives us for what though?
I never asked Him to give me life. He just did.
So if I decide to hurt other people during my life, so what?
Good & bad/evil don't exist. Right or wrong doesn't exist.
It only exists cause society makes it that way.
So other people will punish me or forgive me or whatever. Not God.
If a dog steals a cookie
He won't consider it stealing, he considers it food that he wants to eat.
But if you kick the dog or yell at him angrily when he takes the cookie & eats it, the dog will usually never try to eat the cookie again because he associates pain with eating that cookie.
Did he think it was wrong or evil or bad? No.
Only cause you say it's wrong or evil or bad by hurting him or yelling at him for it.
I don't see God anywhere in here shaking his finger saying No, no, that's wrong. Bad doggy!
So, in my opinion, God isn't this dude or dudette or anything of form that sits up there in His so called Heaven waiting for Judgement day.
I think people gave Him some sort of form, so it'd be easier for people to believe.
And I think Heaven & Hell were made up by the church as a way to keep people from doing bad things as society considered them bad and to make people live their lives by church's rules, under the illusion of being rewarded in the 'afterlife.'
I also think 'afterlife' was made up so that you didn't have think about becoming non-existent.
Only humans worry about that.
I doubt an animal would be wondering about what happened after it died.
It lives right now. Whether doing things right or wrong. It's not waiting for the 'afterlife' to start living it's life.
You can say that's cause animals can't actually think.
But that's not true. They can think cause most mammals can dream and some birds can dream too.
But instead of thinking everything a million times over like humans do, they trust their instincts.
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Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:09 pm
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Cheeto Bandito PixieofDestruction Cheeto Bandito Forgives us for what though? I never asked Him to give me life. He just did. So if I decide to hurt other people during my life, so what? For lots of things. C'mon, you're not a child. You know what is good and what isn't just by instinct, not because it was taught to you. And yes, there is a lot of grey area when it comes to everything. No, 'morals' are not instinct. You learn it from TV, parents, friends, environment, etc.. So yes, it is taught to you.
For example: When you're a little kid and you knock over your bowl of food on purpose or even by accident, your parents will get mad at you and you know it's "wrong" to do so.
Not all parents get mad, but this is just an example.
Its not that the child is being bad but the parents are trying to instill manners which aren't related to morals or being evil. That is something that is taught and it varies in different countires.
Quote: (As for things such as murder etc, see some of my next answers, unless it isn't clear to you, then ask me to clarify why I think even murder isn't considered 'wrong' or 'bad' by instinct and I'll do so)
I study Law at university, and they recently explained to us the concept of Law of Nature & Positive law
Those who strongly believe in the law of nature, call 'morals' a basis for law, however a mentally ill person doesn't have 'morals'.
So the opposition, those who strongly believe in Positive law, believe that the behaviour of man isn't defined by nature/default (morals), therefore we need laws & consequences for violation of those human created laws.
Thus, law/society/other people tells us what's good & bad. Not instinct.
For example:
If there wasn't a law to punish murderers or to "protect" people from it, everyone could kill anyone and in the eyes of 'society' murder is considered 'wrong' and would bring 'chaos.'
Why does society consider it wrong? Because people fear death/pain and murder brings death/pain.
Murder is where it hits grey area (like I said before... lots of grey area). It all depends on the situation. Stuff like fighting is very primitive in our brains, even today that we're so evolved. I repeat again its the malice behind your intentions that are evil. Yes, it does exist. Murder is considered wrong because, even if you're not afraid of death, you still deserve to live. Who are they to take away your right to live? They are violating your natural born right. Plus, people have families to take care of. So its ok to have people struggling because their parents got killed by some person who happened to have a bad day?
Quote: Good & bad/evil don't exist. Right or wrong doesn't exist. It only exists cause society makes it that way. So other people will punish me or forgive me or whatever. Not God.
Quote: Our legal "punishing" is very lenient. The death penalty isn't done a lot in the US and its not like in Arab countries where you get you hand chopped off on the spot if you steal something. There is good and bad. Example: There are millions of children who get abused every day. Physically, mentally and sexually. So that's no different from something good?
Your example only enforces my argument that there is no right or wrong/good or bad.
For example:
Why would it be wrong to abuse children? Because people fear 'abuse' and they will ask themselves in just a split second in which the thought isn't actually consciously processed, "what if it was me that was getting abused like that?" and by that, they come to the conclusion it is wrong.
Same thing I said in my previous answer.
Now to answer your question "So that's no different from something good?"
Good or bad/right or wrong are based on feelings
Feelings are subjective.
Something that might seem 'wrong' to you, may seem 'right' to someone else.
So the concept of right or wrong/good or bad existing by default doesn't apply, or it would apply to everything & everyone exactly the same, which isn't the case.
No, its not the fear of abuse. It is what happens to children and people after they get abused. It is a torment that they have to live with for the rest of their lives. You have no idea. Children even get killed from this abuse and you're saying there's no evil. I don't think children are really afraid of dying. I don't think they can even grasp the subject so its not what you said earlier that killing is bad because ppl are afraid of it. A child getting the s**t beat out of them is inexcusable no matter who you are.
Quote: If a dog steals a cookie He won't consider it stealing, he considers it food that he wants to eat. But if you kick the dog or yell at him angrily when he takes the cookie & eats it, the dog will usually never try to eat the cookie again because he associates pain with eating that cookie. Did he think it was wrong or evil or bad? No. Only cause you say it's wrong or evil or bad by hurting him or yelling at him for it. I don't see God anywhere in here shaking his finger saying No, no, that's wrong. Bad doggy!
Quote: A dog isn't stealing a cookie with malice. What's behind evil/bad is the intention. Are you doing it with malice or is it mindless action? I don't see him shaking his finger at us either. He lets us do what we want because he gave us free will. That's what makes it rewarding to HIm, I think. Knowing that you CHOOSE to go in his path eventhough you don't have to and aren't pushed to it.
I was merely pointing out that animals don't know 'laws' as humans know it. They don't see that what they're doing as 'wrong' until someone/their owner shows that their actions have consequences they don't like.
So no, a dog isn't stealing with malice.
He has no 'intention' of stealing, his 'intention' in the first place would be eating. Not until the owner punishes him for eating that cookie, will it become stealing with the 'intention' for it in the future if the dog would repeat this behaviour.
And the same thing applied to humans before laws were set up.
Humans didn't have the 'intention' either when they did everything for the first time that we would consider 'wrong', now that it has been done for the first time, the intent will be there since it has become more or less common knowledge and forbidden by law and/or society.
(Excluding mentally ill people, this is a whole different discussion on it's own in my opinion)
And I was also pointing out that animals live instinctively by default, humans don't.
Anyway
Why bless us with free will and then punish us for using it?
It's like a test. But why test us?
If we are all equal, then why does He decide some of us are not worthy to be in His presence and will spend eternity separated from Him?
Quote: So, in my opinion, God isn't this dude or dudette or anything of form that sits up there in His so called Heaven waiting for Judgement day. I think people gave Him some sort of form, so it'd be easier for people to believe. And I think Heaven & Hell were made up by the church as a way to keep people from doing bad things as society considered them bad and to make people live their lives by church's rules, under the illusion of being rewarded in the 'afterlife.' I also think 'afterlife' was made up so that you didn't have think about becoming non-existent. Only humans worry about that. I doubt an animal would be wondering about what happened after it died. It lives right now. Whether doing things right or wrong. It's not waiting for the 'afterlife' to start living it's life. You can say that's cause animals can't actually think. But that's not true. They can think cause most mammals can dream and some birds can dream too. But instead of thinking everything a million times over like humans do, they trust their instincts.
Quote: Animals do think. They're very smart. I get where you're getting at, though. Animals don't have to think about those things because they don't have a soul. My dad also explained to me that we can't understand animals for a reason: we'd go insane: They worship God 24/7. We can't handle that, that's why we have so many questions. We really can't fathom everything and God understands that, I believe. You have very strong opinions and I find it pretty refreshing. I hope you're not getting this as I'm trying to convert you. I'm just explaining what I've learned. I don't know everything but I could get some answers. Like I said, my dad studies religion every day. He's done a few exorsisms but anything you hear from me will be from a Catholic perspective. You're protistant but a lot of our beliefs are still the same. We're all Christians. It doesn't really matter what we are, though. God loves us all equally.
I didn't say animals can't think, I said animals can think cause science proved that most mammals & some birds can dream, thoughts of some sort are required for dreams in my opinion.
Who says animals don't have a soul?
Who says humans do have a soul?
Who says animals worship God 24/7?
Animals can't talk as far as I know, so I doubt this came from one.
Did God Himself say this? And where exactly in the bible is this described/explained/told?
Animals do talk. I saw a documentary about it in Animal Planet. There were birds warning animals about tigers about to pounce on them. I gotta talk to my dad and get exact places of where my info on animals is comming from so I can't respond to your questions about that today. My appologies for that. |
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:41 pm
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PixieofDestruction Its not that the child is being bad but the parents are trying to instill manners which aren't related to morals or being evil. That is something that is taught and it varies in different countires.
Alright, so I gave a poor example. But that doesn't mean morals are defined by nature/default. I still say they are personal values & feelings.
Which was really my point that I was trying to make clear.
I'll come up with a better example if necessary.
PixieofDestruction Murder is where it hits grey area (like I said before... lots of grey area). It all depends on the situation. Stuff like fighting is very primitive in our brains, even today that we're so evolved. I repeat again its the malice behind your intentions that are evil. Yes, it does exist. Murder is considered wrong because, even if you're not afraid of death, you still deserve to live. Who are they to take away your right to live? They are violating your natural born right. Plus, people have families to take care of. So its ok to have people struggling because their parents got killed by some person who happened to have a bad day?
Who can prove your intentions? Or the malice behind your intentions?
Almost everyone who committed murder will say "But I didn't mean to kill them!"
Is there still malice behind their intentions then?
Who decided we deserve to live? Didn't we, as a society, decide that it is our right to live and that anyone who dares violate that right will be punished?
So, a murderer doesn't take away a person's right to live, they merely violate a person's right to live since the right itself doesn't disappear after a person dies or gets murdered. It remains.
It wasn't defined by nature. It is not a natural born right.
If it were a law of nature, it wouldn't need to be written law.
PixieofDestruction No, its not the fear of abuse. It is what happens to children and people after they get abused. It is a torment that they have to live with for the rest of their lives. You have no idea. Children even get killed from this abuse and you're saying there's no evil. I don't think children are really afraid of dying. I don't think they can even grasp the subject so its not what you said earlier that killing is bad because ppl are afraid of it. A child getting the s**t beat out of them is inexcusable no matter who you are.
Again I say,
What may seem 'wrong' to you, may seem 'right' to someone else.
Who decides when a child is abused?
Isn't it the law that decides what abuse is?
The law states what abuse is and that one person doing this to another person or child, it will have consequences. Those consequences are also in the law.
Before laws, children were abused all the time. Have you forgotten about child slavery?
Most people accepted this as normal, cause there was no law to forbid it. In fact, families would have more children just so that they could work and help provide for the family.
Until philosophers and other people came with their theories about how children need to play and learn to grow up as well mannered members of society to reduce things that were and are forbidden by law such as stealing.
This just shows that abuse isn't 'wrong' or 'evil' until society & law decide so.
Yes, it is 'wrong' to you, cause you feel it is 'wrong'. But feelings & personal values differ from person to person.
If everyone went by their feelings & personal values, there would be chaos. Therefore law decides what's supposedly right or wrong or good or evil/bad.
PixieofDestruction Animals do talk. I saw a documentary about it in Animal Planet. There were birds warning animals about tigers about to pounce on them. I gotta talk to my dad and get exact places of where my info on animals is comming from so I can't respond to your questions about that today. My appologies for that.
Warning signals and communication between animals is different than 'talking'
And what I meant by 'talking' is that an animal couldn't possibly have told a human that animals don't have a soul and worship God 24/7.
And even if an animal did told a human that animals don't have a soul and worship God 24/7, who says that animal is representative for it's whole own kind and other animals?
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:22 am
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Here's how I see God..
In my opinion....
God is You.
So the whole idea is that you should worship yourself.
You are the one to forgive yourself.
When you pray to God for strength, you're actually praying to yourself to give You strength.
When you pray to God for forgiveness, you're actually praying to yourself to grant You forgiveness.
God isn't a being or anything of form that sits in 'Heaven' and looks down upon us.
God is right here, within you.
And the only one who is judging You, is Yourself.
The only one you should devote Your life to, is Yourself.
You don't believe in God, but believe in Yourself.
And in my opinion.
If God is You, that means You decide whether you go to Heaven or Hell
You have the power to forgive yourself for what you have done.
When you can't find this forgiveness within yourself before you die, then you will indeed go to 'Hell' after death, for you will spend eternity knowing you could never forgive yourself for what you did in life.
When you can forgive yourself and completely accept yourself for who you are before you die, that is when you will go to 'Heaven' after death, because you will spend eternity knowing you are at peace with yourself and content with how you lived your life.
And if you can truly live your life with no regrets or worry or doubt, that is when you are at peace with yourself.
I'm not saying that there really is an afterlife or a Heaven/Hell. But I think it is a tool for you to be able to believe in yourself.
An illusion created by your mind to stimulate yourself and live your life to the fullest.
So I criticize the religion, because the way they preach it & interpretate it is wrong in my opinion, it is creating a being or something of form. It is implying that there is an almighty 'God' looking down on you, watching your every move.
There is something/someone looking at you and knows everything that You do and that being is Yourself. But not some sort of a 'God.'
A thing I criticize about every religion(Except Buddhism/Taoism) is that the people(note: not the religion itself, it's the people) try to force their ideas and religious views on others and are prepared to murder others for it.
It gives the religion a bad name, when really, the religion itself is something wonderful, it's the people who interpretate it in a way that becomes negative which makes a religion not worth believing in.
Who are they to tell 'non-religious' people that they will burn in Hell if they do not convert?
A person does not have to believe in 'Christian beliefs' or 'Muslim beliefs' or any other well-known religion for them to believe in themself.
Anyway
The point of this was
That morals are not something defined by nature/default
And that there is no 'God' to judge/punish you, it is something that you do yourself.
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