"The Old Testament Doesn't Count!"

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Lethkhar

Fushigi na Butterfly

Lethkhar

Fushigi na Butterfly

Lethkhar

So when, on my math test, I somehow wrote that 2^3=6, my brain was functioning correctly? (True story...I can be really stupid sometimes...)

No. My brain is my processing center. If I mess up in math, then it's my brain's fault.

It could have been a visual perception mistake or a motor ... you know what, never mind. Irrelevant. Your brain does what it does, arriving at the conclusions that it arrives at. Just because those conclusions are wrong does not mean the brain made a mistake in arriving there. It followed the same process and pattern it always does, doing exactly what it's supposed to do. But now it's not really helping my point any.

God has always existed and everything else that exists does because of Him. He created the concept of justice and has the best understanding of it because He created it. Unlike people who can screw up when they invent something or who can have their inventions improved upon this doesn't apply to God. He sets the standard for justice because there is no other. He is the highest entity above everything; nothing can be above Him or better than Him. His understanding of the universe- seeing as how He created it- is perfect and flawless. If anyone has a better understanding of it (or anything in it) they would have to be above God.

Why?

The creator does not have to be better at using the creation than everyone else in order to be better at creating that creation than everyone else.

There is a big difference between creating something and using it.

And God does both. He created justice and, setting the standard for what that means, uses it.

Just not as well as others might be able to.

That's your opinion.  

[Hawthorn-Thorne Angel-]

Lethkhar

It has come to my attention that many Christians feel that the Old Testament's laws are outdated and have been swept aside by their saviour Jesus. I personally believe the Old Testament holds just as much wieght as the New Testament. For simplicity, I have a compiled a list of scripture to prove this point.

First of all. let it be known what exactly Jesus is referring to when He refers to "the law":
“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19)

“For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).


So yes, Jesus is referring to the Old Testament.

1. “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

2. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

3. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

3b. "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

3c. "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

4. "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

5. “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

Note: #4 and #5 are accounts of Jesus defending himself for not washing his hands by telling the Pharisees that they should kill their children like the Old Testament tells them to.

6. “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

Killing is against the ten commandments  

[Lethkhar]

hawthoerne

Lethkhar

It has come to my attention that many Christians feel that the Old Testament's laws are outdated and have been swept aside by their saviour Jesus. I personally believe the Old Testament holds just as much wieght as the New Testament. For simplicity, I have a compiled a list of scripture to prove this point.

First of all. let it be known what exactly Jesus is referring to when He refers to "the law":
“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19)

“For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).


So yes, Jesus is referring to the Old Testament.

1. “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)

2. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

3. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

3b. "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

3c. "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

4. "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

5. “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

Note: #4 and #5 are accounts of Jesus defending himself for not washing his hands by telling the Pharisees that they should kill their children like the Old Testament tells them to.

6. “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

Killing is against the ten commandments

And yet they seem to do it a lot in the Old Testament, don't they?

It seems to be more like,"Thou shalt try really hard not to kill unless thine victim worships a different invisible man from thineself."  

[GuardianAngel44]

It says murder, dumbasses. I hate when people try to fricking do that to scripture.  

[Lethkhar]

GuardianAngel44

It says murder, dumbasses. I hate when people try to fricking do that to scripture.

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary

Main Entry: 2murder
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): mur·dered; mur·der·ing ˈmər-d(ə-)riŋ
Date: 13th century
transitive verb
1: to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice
2: to slaughter wantonly : slay
3 a: to put an end to b: tease, torment c: mutilate, mangle d: to defeat badly
intransitive verb
: to commit murder

 

[The Amazing Jabels]

freelance lover

Jesus tells us that "I came not to abolish the old laws, but to fulfill them." I think people who completely disregard the old laws and all of the OT are ridiculous. Whether or not you still recognize them, you need to understand and study the OT to understand our history as Christians.

I don't believe we are bound to the OT rules, however. Jesus' death and ressurrection gives us the forgiveness without having to sacrafic goats and such. Also, you have to consider that a lot of the rules, especially dietary rules and such, were put into place for sanitary reasons. However, we now have better sanitation methods, so we don't really need to abide by such rules.

Exactly.  

[DOVE_SAVED_BY_GRACE]

I think parts of the Old Testament still matter, while some don't.

What does count: The 10 commandments (and probably other parts I haven't read yet.)

What doesn't count: To name a little bit: The implication that a human isn't a true person until 1 month, and the rule to not eat pigs.  

[bealfeal]

hahah man, i sure have been slacking in my bible studies, but thanks for the post i guess the old testmant IS just as important as the new testmant.  

[Joseph Crossheart]

Yeah more than a couple youth leaders at my church have told me that the old testament isnt important,because jesus isnt in it ( or something along those lines...)  

[We Dont Negotiate]

Shout-It-Out

Yeah more than a couple youth leaders at my church have told me that the old testament isnt important,because jesus isnt in it ( or something along those lines...)

That's just about the worst argument for it ive heard.

Do people also forget though that by page two of the NT Jesus had allready abolished one OT rule An Eye for an Eye.  

[Aachren]

*sighs*
I wish I had read this thread earlier in the day, so I would have time to adequately respond.

When I find the bit about the Pharasees cursing their parents, I'll post that.

EDIT: Flipping through stuff and saw this...

1 Corinthians 9:8-10 (New American Standard Bible)

8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things?
9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING " God is not concerned about oxen, is He?
10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops.

 

[Jessy_4 26 2008]

freelance lover

Jesus tells us that "I came not to abolish the old laws, but to fulfill them." I think people who completely disregard the old laws and all of the OT are ridiculous. Whether or not you still recognize them, you need to understand and study the OT to understand our history as Christians.

I don't believe we are bound to the OT rules, however. Jesus' death and ressurrection gives us the forgiveness without having to sacrafic goats and such. Also, you have to consider that a lot of the rules, especially dietary rules and such, were put into place for sanitary reasons. However, we now have better sanitation methods, so we don't really need to abide by such rules.

That was a great way to put it, I was thinking the same thing. Except more confusedly. Sort of like "Of course it counts, it is God's word as much as the NT is..but then why are we able to eat the things we eat..I remember that somewhere in the NT is says we no longer need to make sacrifices of animals, but nothing about the other rules.."
(By saying somewhere, I'm indicating that I haven't memorized the verses, and don't have a Bible on hand at the moment)