Is rap music? Should rappers be allowed in this guild?

[ayoopdog]

I used to hate rap until I noticed it's complexity and hard work. It's a different genre of music that has evolved and developed over the years, it sort of branched off from blues music.

Sure most rap songs suck but imagine if all music was the same? it would be dull. So I'm celebrating that Rap is rap instead of getting mad that it sucks.

well, this is from a 16 year old musician's point of view who grew up listening to The beatles...  

[lensed]

The only problem I have with this post is that when nearly everyone thinks of "rap," they think of a song with strictly rhymes and a beat. The Saturday Knights is the perfect opposite. You could even say the same about Gorillaz. The difference is, the singers both "rap" and sing.  

[Kaio-Leucitius]

munky_man_wonka

but i say rapping is a form of music except for s**t like soulja boy thats just stupid

Music like soulja boy can get trendy and annoying. Without a doubt that song was overplayed. But once you understand that the music is more dance oriented than expressionist it become more tolerable. I liked soulja boy at first but I heard it too much. It was almost as bad as the macarena(sp?)

But yea, think of the reason so many people reject "techno" I hear alot of hatred towards the repetitive beats but without those beats there would be no way to dance to it and there would be no raves or anything. The culture would crumble.  

[Nyanfood]

train heartnet124

Riyoku Sakimori

Music is the combination relatively logical rhythmic and sound inflection components in an attempt to create an artistic audio piece that may or may not portray motifs other than its beauty. Just as I absolutely detest Picasso while others adore it, opinions on what music is varies from person to person depending on tolerance of the term 'logical'. Because Rap is based mainly on a rhythmic value, and tone comes with every vocal expression, it is rather safe to deem it to be 'music'.

I believe the question you are trying to answer is "Is rap GOOD music?", where the opinions are not confined into certain bounds of universal definitions.

instruments dont mean music... and music doesnt mean instuments or a beat... music can be anything sound that a person thinks is music... think nature... almost every natural sound on earth can be considered music by someone... birds chirping... the sounds of rivers and forests... they can be music to some but not to others... its all an opinion

It is only music to some because it coincidentally falls into artistic alignment and illicits an emotional reaction from the listener. It is not actually OPINION. Rather, it is human sensitivity. If the term 'music' is an opinion, then the universal definition of music doesn't qualify. If music can't qualify as definition, than 'human' can't qualify either. Because Rap follows the rules set by the supposed definition of music, as it can illicit a pleasant emotional response and follows the rules of rhythm and inflection, by STANDARD opinion, it falls into the category of music. People who do not follow standard opinion are okay, to them Rap is not music... but according to 'Catcher in the Rye', people who set their lives' goals upon a false definition take on the role of the tragic hero, and suffer a great fall.

This can go on forever, since according to your philosophy, I can technically redefine every word in the dictionary, meaning that I can define tragic heroes as worthless fecal matter. Therefore, by not accepting the common definition, a true FACT delineated by the masses... by deciding to deviate from reality and wriggle yourself into a niche that adamantly denies the taxonomy of audio art, you can very well be defined as worthless fecal matter.

O____o;;;; not that I'm calling you that! *didn't mean for the logic to twist this way, but... it did, somehow...*  

[Kaio-Leucitius]

That was a little tough for me to follow but you made a good point lol props.  

[Zladko]

Quote:

It just doesn't sound like music. I hate it.

How can it not sound like music? A drum beat alone sounds like music, and rap virtually always includes a drum beat. Whether you like it or not, it's music.

I enjoy rap if it's really good (love NWA), but like all popular music, most of it is crap. Holding Soulja Boy against rap in general is like holding Jonas Brothers against rock.

But even the best rap is not really my favorite form of music, for a couple of reasons:

(1) No melody. A good rap vocal plays with rhythm in interesting ways, and the delivery conveys emotion/attitude, but so does a good singing performance. In other words, a good sung vocal has everything a good rap vocal has, and more. Rap is like watching TV in black and white, there's an important element missing.

(I have the same problem with modern metal vocals -- 'growling' -- except that's not even interesting rhythmically).

(2) No harmonic movement. The vast majority of rap is ONE KEY, sometimes even ONE CHORD, for entire song.

(3) Machine generated. A lot of rap is assembled on a computer, rather than performed by live musicians in the studio. It just sounds sterile to me. I like hearing real musicians on real instruments, so there's subtlety and nuance in every performance on the track, not just the vocal.

(4) Highly repetitive. The use of drums machines, canned tracks, repeated samples, etc. (#3) combined with lack of melody (#1) and harmonic movement (#2) add up to a lot of rap being more repetitive than even the worst techno.

That's not to say there aren't exceptions to this. Producers are starting to use more live musicians, there's more progression in songs, they often add vocal melodies behind the rap or during choruses, etc. I loved the music in Dave Chappelle's Block Party, because they had REAL LIVE HUMAN MUSICIANS on stage playing (awesome drummer and bass player) which is a biggy for me.

It also has to be said that because rap/hip-hop is a newer art form, it's more vibrant, there's more creativity there, than in a lot of older music forms (including rock). You're more likely to hear something you've never heard before from a rap producer than from the best jazz band. But as much as I appreciate what they are doing lyrically and rhythmically, as much as appreciate the creativity and production skill, I much prefer music that's performed by real musicians, so there's movement and vitality in more than just the vocal track.  

[Nyanfood]

@Zladko: THANK YOU for supporting my claims!  

[Kaio-Leucitius]

train heartnet124

i never hear rock that shakes my entire jeep.

Pelican, Isis, Neurosis, Emmure, Whitechapel, Meshuggah(sp?) any band with a good double bass drummer or a bassist the utilizes the low end of his tone pretty much. Primus would probably work too. My favorite to bump the bass to is "mammoth" by Pelican mrgreen

Riyoku Sakimori

Loud Bass is noise, but Loud Bass is also a form of music playback. By turning off the bass, you rid yourself of eardrum annoyances, and it can become more appealing. It is not the fault of the original song-maker that the Bass was turned up, therefore the noise and annoyance is not always originally intended to be present.

Music is the combination relatively logical rhythmic and sound inflection components in an attempt to create an artistic audio piece that may or may not portray motifs other than its beauty. Just as I absolutely detest Picasso while others adore it, opinions on what music is varies from person to person depending on tolerance of the term 'logical'. Because Rap is based mainly on a rhythmic value, and tone comes with every vocal expression, it is rather safe to deem it to be 'music'.

I believe the question you are trying to answer is "Is rap GOOD music?", where the opinions are not confined into certain bounds of universal definitions.

So is it safe to say that the topic itself is flawed? Here everyone is getting technical about why they themselves are not attracted to a genre. It's fine to say that you do not enjoy the music, but I don't understand how anyone can deny that it is music simply because they do not enjoy it. Actually I do, because I've been guilty of it and I regret it because I closed my mind to some amazing artists.

Abstract art is an excellent example, Picasso's art is without any doubt misunderstood by many (especially those outside the art community) but I don't think anyone has the right to say that it is not art when they haven't bothered to look into the lifetime it took him to develop that abstract style. In any case, I firmly believe that the definition of "art" or "music" is pretty abstract itself. Some define music so technically..

"Music is sound patterns and melodies set to rhythm etc."

I don't think it can defined by such logic since music is not created purely by logic, but by creativity and innovation. If there has always been these required guidelines then how come we are not listening to the same "music" that was made thousands of years ago instead of the newer styles?? You cannot limit music to "that which is played on one or several instruments" because sooner or later someone will come along and break that barrier by utilizing that which has become more readily available, like computers. Yes, it will piss people off but people are afraid of change. Over time though, as generations grow up with these new, evolved genres. They become more "mainstream" and acceptable by society and are open to even more change. It's a cycle I never want to see break.

once again, if it seems like I'm flaming or being a "fascist ********" that's because I'm one of the few people that come here regularly. I've been trying to wait and give time for more replies so it doesn't seem like I'm being such a preachy mo fo but yea... my bad, i see what you guys mean.
 

[Nyanfood]

Music is definitely defined by logic, or else a definition can't be possible. Not purely, but I can also say that music isn't purely defined by the lack of logic.

For instance, sonatas movements are always in the format ABA. Theme and variations are always repetitions of the theme in new form with breath between each variation. By ending the song in the first note of the key in which the song is based gives it a sense of finality. Using crescendo in combination with retardanto creates the sense of tension.

Moving forward in time -- A common format for pop music is [verse1][optional verse 2][bridge1][chorus][instrumental][verse2 (or verse3 if you used optional verse 2][bridge2][chorus][instrumental][main bridge][chorus][ending variation and/or instrumental]. Logic gives the song a stronger meaning by writing the song like an essay, where the verses give examples and analysis, the bridges give personal reactions (bridge and verse can mingle often), the chorus states the thesis and conclusion, and the secondary bridge is often pure personal reaction.

The harmony of thirds and fifths are still used to this day. Certain dissonances can only with with certain other dissonances following compatible intervals and using the same scale (chromatic counts as a scale, so it's a free-run). You could go all over the place with rhythm, but each instance before the adjacent changes, these rhythms are definable by a fraction quantity or a ratio. The very soundwaves of music require logic, or else synthesizers wouldn't do s**t.

Even sounds in nature (bird mating calls are often placed in pairs or triplets of each sound; thunder and wind is analogous to the pianissimo section of Brahms Raphsody no. 2 Op 79, having its own rhythm and emotional quality; footsteps are often taken in rhythm; etc.) I believe that the only illogical part about music is the mind that thinks it up. The rest will create new logic or follow old ones.

If rap can follow any of those rules (and many that I don't have room to list), it can be counted as music.

When you say 'the topic itself is flawed', it isn't true. "Is rap music?" is a valid question. The answers many people give in this thread are simply irrelevant to the question being asked.

Whether a person likes a certain genre or not should not be the basis of whether it is music or not. Therefore, the topic isn't flawed.  

[Kaio-Leucitius]

Not lack of logic but not pure logic...

Lets try to take a look at the freestyle. No doubt, there is alot of logic involved but the lyricist doesn't spend that many hours obsessing over where to add the chorus and what note should be added where. In that sense, rap isn't nearly as melodically based as the genres you listed. Usually about an 8 bar loop would do. These days Artists pair up with DJ's and work together to give the beat more melodic value but for the "rapper" that's not the main focus. They find logic in rhythm but they do it too fast to think about it which gives it more emotional value IMO because they expose themselves completely. They can't hide any part of themselves. Keep in mind, I have some of my favorite artists in mind when I say this. Not P-Diddy or Lil Wayne...

For many rappers they use rhyme as a way of understanding themselves. To define music by set patterns doesn't seem fair. It might be true but I don't like the idea it gives because I have never made a song with chorus and verses in mind. It's always been spur of the moment. It might put me at some disadvantages but it got me my current sound and style. And I know alot of amazing musicians that have done the same.

But back to what I was trying to say, to say music is all these set patterns is like say art is only art if it looks like something in real life. How about this though, can we agree that rap is at the very least a complicated artform that takes skills and talent to accomplish? Hate your mainstream artists if you want but listen to their old stuff. I know it must be hard to follow if you haven't heard anything good yet. This ties in to the goals of the artist. I believe that in art; you are trying to make sense of things your logical mind cannot easily explain. You don't just construct music, you feel it and become it.

When you sleep you don't think about what your body is doing. You drift off into what many believe is a window to your soul. It's a proven fact that we use more of our brains when we are sleeping. Our bodies have less to worry about, sometimes our bodies even disregard balance and we end up with those "falling" dreams. This same Idea has been explored by martial artists through advanced meditation and I can see it in art (which is often considered a form of meditation itself) There is logic involved in the music but not as much in the thought process, once you become fluent in the genre like a language.

/end rant  

[Nyanfood]

Freestyle is only music because it falls into logic coincidentally. Freestyle sounds good, perhaps, because a certain succession of notes follows the rules of chords, or every arpeggio in a certain chain just HAPPENS to be all diminished arpeggios or all augmented arpeggios. Just like how thunder booms a certain amount of time after the lightning, accompanied by the falling rain. It may not be INTENDED LOGIC, but it happened to be logic. What you just did was agree with me, not refute my point. biggrin And maybe some rappers can just think that fast. It's emotional, but their words naturally align themselves with rhythmic laws. Of course you feel the music, but just feeling it isn't enough sometimes. You have to hit the right keys, or you're not portraying what you're feeling.

Besides, I never said that music was all set patterns.

Riyoku Sakimori

Music is definitely defined by logic, or else a definition can't be possible. Not purely, but I can also say that music isn't purely defined by the lack of logic.

Not purely were the key words.

So I thank you for agreeing fully with me. I would just prefer that you'd agree with me in a less... contrary... manner. sweatdrop
-----------------

On a side note, making songs with an idea in mind is like organizing your feelings, which is basically the same things as meditation by academic methods. I never like the songs I write without organized thought, but the songs that tell a neat tale appeals to the audience more since they can probably understand where your train of thought is going.

Your music is probably done for yourself, which is very good. That's the purest sense of music. But I've been brainwashed into automatically marketing everything I do due to the continuous lack of extra money. So I make sure I appeal to my audience, not just to myself.

I do just play around sometimes, for the sake of beauty. However, I know the difference between randomly banging your hands on a piano in a fit of frustration ... and methodically hitting dissonances that work like positive and negative space in a painting.  

[Kaio-Leucitius]

i would love to be able to market my art and music but i'm not there just yet. It's not a bad thing to be rewarded as long as you do not sacrifice the quality of your art. A mistake alot of rappers make these days.  

[Nyanfood]

*shrug*
For me, I only think high quality ideas are logically sellable, so until I heard a lot of the stuff on the radio, I had no idea people could market trash. Rap is good if the significance behind the lyrics are placed in a plausible fashion (or in the case where there is no significance, the sound tones compliment each other), the melodic qualities accompanying them are aesthetically sound, and they use a blend of emotions appropriate to the subject they're conveying. Although I am quite a violent person, I don't want to hear someone sound happy over innocents dying in car crashes. It makes good music sound distasteful.  

[YuzoraRyuu]

Rap is a very poorly represented form of music. I have heard numerous songs (All out of America) that are jut plain amazing. It isn't just talking, it is a hamonious effort to point out what is wrong in the world. For instance Damien Marley's 'One Loaf of Bread' is very moving. He doesn't talk about some guy doing some chick, or shooting up a place because I don't like a guy's shirt. He brilliantly places a poetic movement into a simple chord progression and doesn't stay on one note. I believe that rappers should be more carefully selected but I still think it has musical potential in the world of art forms.  

[xXCollisionXx]

stressed after reading the first few posts i already and leaning towards NOT joining this guild, ever heard of eminem? he's got heart in his music! dr.dre? he knows what he's saying!, rap has nothing to do with the color of your skin and it's more then just poetry with efeects, jeez listen to it you just might understand! exclaim