In a bad mood? come here and rant till you feel better

[Nines19]

Three rant-lings, one of them on the current subject.
1. I was wondering if she was pissing anybody else off.

2. Never again, the Clivus Times! A.K.A. I hate camping with my mother's Girl Scout troop almost as much as I hate actually being in the troop.

3. Apparently a rash spreading across my shoulder and back could either be caused by Pityriasis rosea, which is like just a rash, or TSS, which could kill me. Awesome. And I have some of the other symptoms for TSS. And I've been using tampons for the last three days, so it really could be TSS. But I'm too scared my mom will call me an idiot and tell me it's nothing to ask her to take me to the hospital.
Just thinking about this makes me feel like crying. I hate that feeling.  

[Kuroiban]

Recursive Paradox

How many people actually are like that from willful ignorance? And how many are actually just extraordinarily defensive because they came in honestly and innocently questioning and then someone stuck a shotgun down their throat and blew their torso off for having the wrong view?

When people get overly defensive, it can often show itself as fake arrogance. Because when you've been heavily attacked for your viewpoint it makes you afraid to get attacked again. So you try to float your views through sheer chutzpah alone. We create a lot of our own issues in the M&R by training people to be defensive, arrogant assholes to everyone else as the only way to survive. This training also makes it all but impossible to actually concede to someone because your expectation becomes, "this person is just going to rub my face in it".

We know that this is untrue of everyone in this guild, but when outsiders only see the vicious exterior it becomes a very reasonable expectation that conceding won't change this behavior. That's where field nurses come in. We go into a thread after the nukers have forced people past their comfort level and out of their intellectual stagnation and enable those people to concede, learn and absorb the info as their own. We patch up the wounds and tend to them, giving them a gentle face to say, "okay, guys, I was wrong about that. Help me learn better?"

I mean, ********, some of the regs are vicious even to the people who say, "help me learn?" People who are asking an honest to gods question and poorly phrased it get themselves torn a new a*****e. And then we wonder why they refuse to listen to anyone after that.

It's ridiculous.

I haven't actually been in M&R in quite a while; years in fact. At the time when I was in, what I did post was either ignored out of hat, or dismissed in favor of fluff.

I WILL say that you bring some resoundingly good points to the arena however, and it does give me a different POV to look at things from.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Nines19

3. Apparently a rash spreading across my shoulder and back could either be caused by Pityriasis rosea, which is like just a rash, or TSS, which could kill me. Awesome. And I have some of the other symptoms for TSS. And I've been using tampons for the last three days, so it really could be TSS. But I'm too scared my mom will call me an idiot and tell me it's nothing to ask her to take me to the hospital.
Just thinking about this makes me feel like crying. I hate that feeling.

Please go to the hospital? TSS is really really bad and it's better to be safe then... well... dead.  

[too2sweet]

maenad nuri

The problem with a lot of the newer nukers, espcially, besides that they forget to include substance with their anger is that for people like me, it makes me not want to participate.

This is something I've noticed as well. Nothing like having someone say that they are a witch or pagan, and suddenly seeing them get jumped with the 3rd degree about Wicca, when they never even mentioned the word. It's like please don't pounce on someone when they haven't actually done anything to deserve it.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Kuroiban

I haven't actually been in M&R in quite a while; years in fact. At the time when I was in, what I did post was either ignored out of hat, or dismissed in favor of fluff.

M&R seems to go through cycles of asshattery. You might have been in a bad part of a cycle. I went from mildly regular posting to lurking more recently.

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I WILL say that you bring some resoundingly good points to the arena however, and it does give me a different POV to look at things from.

Thanks 3nodding  

[TagraNar]

Recursive Paradox

How many people actually are like that from willful ignorance? And how many are actually just extraordinarily defensive because they came in honestly and innocently questioning and then someone stuck a shotgun down their throat and blew their torso off for having the wrong view?

When people get overly defensive, it can often show itself as fake arrogance. Because when you've been heavily attacked for your viewpoint it makes you afraid to get attacked again. So you try to float your views through sheer chutzpah alone. We create a lot of our own issues in the M&R by training people to be defensive, arrogant assholes to everyone else as the only way to survive. This training also makes it all but impossible to actually concede to someone because your expectation becomes, "this person is just going to rub my face in it".

Even the ones who come in spouting off bullshit, and probably don't know any better, get this treatment, and they really shouldn't. M&R, by it's very nature, is close-minded, ego-inflating, "I am right, you are wrong, there is nothing more to say about it" bullshit. People see it, and reflect it. Yes, you get the ones coming in thinking they know everything, but stop for a moment and reflect on the age demographic of this site, and then the age of the average M&R reg. One will likely be much lower than the other.

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We know that this is untrue of everyone in this guild, but when outsiders only see the vicious exterior it becomes a very reasonable expectation that conceding won't change this behavior. That's where field nurses come in. We go into a thread after the nukers have forced people past their comfort level and out of their intellectual stagnation and enable those people to concede, learn and absorb the info as their own. We patch up the wounds and tend to them, giving them a gentle face to say, "okay, guys, I was wrong about that. Help me learn better?"

The problem is, this is an extraordinarily arrogant tactic. "Field nurses" shouldn't be necessary. Nukers shouldn't be either.

Ya know what M&R should be? Constructive, informative debate. Yes, there are those who will always spam the forum and put up the bullshit arguments, but the attitude of a lot of ED and M&R regs helps worsen this.

I'm an a*****e. But I'm also mocking the very nature of these so-called debaters by doing so. Every thread I've posted in, I've kept in mind to attempt to show people how absurd they are being. Arrogant? Perhaps. But M&R and the regulars within desperately need it.

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I mean, ********, some of the regs are vicious even to the people who say, "help me learn?" People who are asking an honest to gods question and poorly phrased it get themselves torn a new a*****e. And then we wonder why they refuse to listen to anyone after that.

It's ridiculous.

And it is. It absolutely is.

Think for a second what the constant is in M&R. The regulars. There's a lot of turnover in the "noob" department, but the same general attitude persists. It is hard not to make a connection to that which stays the same.  

[Recursive Paradox]

TagraNar

Even the ones who come in spouting off bullshit, and probably don't know any better, get this treatment, and they really shouldn't. M&R, by it's very nature, is close-minded, ego-inflating, "I am right, you are wrong, there is nothing more to say about it" bullshit. People see it, and reflect it. Yes, you get the ones coming in thinking they know everything, but stop for a moment and reflect on the age demographic of this site, and then the age of the average M&R reg. One will likely be much lower than the other.

True enough.

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The problem is, this is an extraordinarily arrogant tactic. "Field nurses" shouldn't be necessary. Nukers shouldn't be either.

Ya know what M&R should be? Constructive, informative debate. Yes, there are those who will always spam the forum and put up the bullshit arguments, but the attitude of a lot of ED and M&R regs helps worsen this.

I'm not sure if constructive informative debate without the obviously flawed tactic of nukers vs. nurses is feasible right now. At the very least it would require a complete overhaul of the way the regulars of the forum operate. I just don't have enough faith that the regs of M&R can pull that off.

So I guess you can say I'm lowering my standards for now? >.> I can understand if that's disappointing but I'd rather take one tiny baby step in a better direction then go nowhere at all.

Also keep in mind that the nuker/nurse methodology really ought to only be used on the willfully ignorant douches. Not genuine learners. Oh gods I hope you didn't get the impression that I thought nuker/nurse methods should be used on everyone did you? Holy s**t no, that would be terrible. o_o

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I'm an a*****e. But I'm also mocking the very nature of these so-called debaters by doing so. Every thread I've posted in, I've kept in mind to attempt to show people how absurd they are being. Arrogant? Perhaps. But M&R and the regulars within desperately need it.

Well in days like this, sometimes crazy solutions are necessary. 3nodding

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I mean, ********, some of the regs are vicious even to the people who say, "help me learn?" People who are asking an honest to gods question and poorly phrased it get themselves torn a new a*****e. And then we wonder why they refuse to listen to anyone after that.

It's ridiculous.

And it is. It absolutely is.

Think for a second what the constant is in M&R. The regulars. There's a lot of turnover in the "noob" department, but the same general attitude persists. It is hard not to make a connection to that which stays the same.

Oh it gets worse than that.

These people, after having been flayed alive by the forum at large, retreat into various guilds as a safe space. But because those defensive hackles have been raised they now respond to each and every discussion in which opposition to their views exists as though it were an attack on them or a battle of ego to be won. And many of the regs actually follow them into these guilds making the paranoia worse.

When we're gone, who's going to be the next regulars of this forum? They are. The people we taught to be exactly like us by ripping them apart with little to no justification for so long.

I find the whole M&R "trial by fire" to be a disturbing concept in that it's often taken to far. In that people often reach a level of vitriol in it that defies reason. Not only that, but this is expected. Even welcomed by some. After the pain of it these people jump into the ranks. But how many of them question the party line?

What if an issue comes up and 90% of the primary heavy regs in M&R are wrong on it? What then? No one is going to speak up. No one is going to address it. And the few that do will simply end up in fire spitting matches, because that's how things work here. It's a problem that I don't see a lot of solutions for.

I guess this is just me venting because I've got nothing to offer to fix this.  

[Wrath of Ezekiel]

As an Indian male, apparently I'm not supposed to marry a "BMMW".

OR: "Black, male, Muslim, or white". scream  

[TagraNar]

Note: This wasn't really directed at you. General you was being used.

Recursive Paradox

I'm not sure if constructive informative debate without the obviously flawed tactic of nukers vs. nurses is feasible right now. At the very least it would require a complete overhaul of the way the regulars of the forum operate. I just don't have enough faith that the regs of M&R can pull that off.

Oh, it won't. It never will. Because the regulars are incapable of truly changing. I have no faith that they can.

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So I guess you can say I'm lowering my standards for now? >.> I can understand if that's disappointing but I'd rather take one tiny baby step in a better direction then go nowhere at all.

I'm not going to hold it against you.

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Also keep in mind that the nuker/nurse methodology really ought to only be used on the willfully ignorant douches. Not genuine learners. Oh gods I hope you didn't get the impression that I thought nuker/nurse methods should be used on everyone did you? Holy s**t no, that would be terrible. o_o

Was vague on that, yeah. But whether or not you think that, others don't.

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Well in days like this, sometimes crazy solutions are necessary. 3nodding

Not that it works, really, as Tea has shown. Funnily enough, a lot of those debates I've been in have mellowed and tapered off.

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Oh it gets worse than that.

These people, after having been flayed alive by the forum at large, retreat into various guilds as a safe space. But because those defensive hackles have been raised they now respond to each and every discussion in which opposition to their views exists as though it were an attack on them or a battle of ego to be won. And many of the regs actually follow them into these guilds making the paranoia worse.

I was unaware that they would follow people. That's.. alarming.

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When we're gone, who's going to be the next regulars of this forum? They are. The people we taught to be exactly like us by ripping them apart with little to no justification for so long.

I'm seeing odd racist parallels. xD

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I find the whole M&R "trial by fire" to be a disturbing concept in that it's often taken to far. In that people often reach a level of vitriol in it that defies reason. Not only that, but this is expected. Even welcomed by some. After the pain of it these people jump into the ranks. But how many of them question the party line?

*waves hand* And it gets me bitched at and told that if I ever talk to the person again, it'll be considered harassment.

I dunno if the nukers just have fragile egos, and thus have to put forth the most extreme and confident front possible, or if it's just some.

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What if an issue comes up and 90% of the primary heavy regs in M&R are wrong on it? What then? No one is going to speak up. No one is going to address it. And the few that do will simply end up in fire spitting matches, because that's how things work here. It's a problem that I don't see a lot of solutions for.

I guess this is just me venting because I've got nothing to offer to fix this.

E-peen waving. That's what it will turn into. And whoever has the most "cred" or what the ******** ever in M&R will be considered the winner. Which is how it tends to work in some cases already.

A fix? Nuke M&R, leave it barren for months, then reopen it. And try to get the word out that it's trying to change.

An alternative? Shun the people who nuke like that. Show them they aren't wanted. *shrug*  

[TeaDidikai]

patch99329

What about when people aren't doing any of those things? Or if they are doing so unintentionally?

They get the same correction that anyone else would get. I'm not the kind of person to denounce someone as an evil a*****e offhandedly. It takes some effort.

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It's not even so much about making the attempt to be -nice-, more about reacting to the situation appropriately and not being, to be blunt, a c**t about it.

Part of the problem I am seeing is that people confuse directness with being a jerk.

I hate listening to "non-blaming" language. (It's a psych term use for a style of speech that they teach at places like Crisis Clinics). It comes across as insincere and passive aggressive.

I sure as hell am not going to use it myself just because someone can't tell the difference between addressing a problem in a statement and personal criticism.

As per your example, I don't rely on addressing individuals as racist just for not knowing, I use it when they rely on their privilege to allow themselves to continue to use it after they know.

When they show ignorance, that's fine. Ignorance can be fixed with education after all. When they exert privilege- that's a problem.  

[TagraNar]

TeaDidikai

Part of the problem I am seeing is that people confuse directness with being a jerk.

The problem is, you're a jerk. And a lot of the M&R regulars are jerks and assholes. And they are confusing being a jerk and an a*****e as being direct.  

[maenad nuri]

I think the problem with that Tea, is that sometimes, even when you think well and get where you are privileged and where you are not, and even how they can interact --- sometimes you really just don't know.

And I'm saying this as a person who is fairly aware of her privilege in the world, I am going to say and do things that reflect that our culture is racist, sexist, ablist all sorts of oppressions and biases that interact with each other.

Privilege isn't just actions -- it's pervasive within our culture. I'll be working my whole life to be a good ally.

People who are on the other side of privilege have to deal with it a lot more than I do. I forgive when their tone isn't always perfect -- but on the flip, I'd like it if they tried to do the same for me. I promise to listen and try to understand.

And I think this is important to understand -- even if people are allies, they are going to screw up because our culture is screwed up. We want to decontexualize "isms" and terms because they make us uncomfortable and we want to use them in other ways to take the pressure off. But we don't always divorce them from the problem fully. There's baggage and that baggage is important, until we deal with that baggage, we aren't going to move on.

Sorry, rambled. My point is to give benefit of the doubt, avoid really inflammatory language, and explain your s**t better. Also, down with the kyriarchy!  

[too2sweet]

TagraNar

TeaDidikai

Part of the problem I am seeing is that people confuse directness with being a jerk.

And a lot of the M&R regulars are jerks and assholes. And they are confusing being a jerk and an a*****e as being direct.

Yes, there are definitely some not so nice people in the M&R, however, one of the things that frustrates me to no end, is that so many people see someone disagreeing with them, as a personal attack, when it's not. Could some people maybe phrase things a bit better...sure, but on the whole, it comes from having to repeat the same things over and over and over. It gets frustrating after awhile.

Having been on the receiving end of "directness" any number of times, I can honestly say that I didn't always take it well, and especially when I first wandered into the M&R, I probably made some not so nice comments about it. sweatdrop However I will say this, I have come to really appreciate it when someone is direct and to the point. Though my debate skills suck, and always will, my discussions in the M&R (and with Tea in particular heart ) taught me to stop and think about what I was saying and taught me to pay careful attention to my sources of information. I don't like being told I'm wrong any better than the next person, but I'd rather be pointed in the right direction, then continue to wander blindly down the wrong path. (even when the pointing is painful) xd  

[Fiddlers Green]

Truth be told, I don't really see M&R as a forum for exchange or education anymore.
I rarely post there, often regret when I do, and find myself fairly disgusted by what I have been told is internet courage, where someone types something they would never have the spinal density to say in person.
There is also a lack of civility, in general, which I find appalling.
Long have I accepted that I, and the place I came from, are anachronisms...
However, I do not see how displaying barbarism will encourage people to learn.
Truth be told, there are a fair number of people whom, had I not met them earlier, had I not known them in person, if all I had to go on was the conduct I observe out of them there...
I would want nothing to do with them

Am I arrogant for this?
Likely so.
I expect more out of people, and myself.
We all walk erect, we are thumb bearing, tool using creatures not only with language, but mastery over machines complicated enough to allow access to the realm of lightning and innovation...
Still yet, there are so many people who can do little more than the intellectual equivalent of squatting, placing their hand beneath their posterior, releasing their post consumer foodstuffs, and then hurling the matter at their target.

Maybe that's why I haven't been on so much lately.
Truth be told, I'm not sure.
I may hold out hope for something, a place, some people, but if it disgusts me, maybe I should avoid it all together.

Most likely, I am the problem.
Both for giving up so easily, and for expecting too much.