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 Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:25 am
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Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:41 am
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Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:10 pm
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Saint Of Demons Quote: TeaDidikai The Lemegeton Clavicula Salomonis or the later translation Clavicula Salomonis Regis- or to answer the question, yes. Alright. Quote: Many others or just a few? Or is this something I'm gonna have to find out for myself. Over thirty. Do your homework. Quote: So I should get a partner to do this with me? Should is a tricky question. I don't think you should do any of this. Quote: So the protection charms and stuff? Please do not confuse charms with seals. They aren't always the same. Quote: So for me to get them to do anything for me I first have to honor them and earn their respect but then I have to command them to do what I want?...I'm slightly confused,,, Depends on the spirit. |
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:32 pm
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Quote: Quote: Many others or just a few? Or is this something I'm gonna have to find out for myself. Over thirty. Do your homework.
I see.
What book(s) are these 72 Lords and the others mentioned in?
Quote: Quote: So the protection charms and stuff? Please do not confuse charms with seals. They aren't always the same.
And I would be using seals correct?
Quote: Quote: So for me to get them to do anything for me I first have to honor them and earn their respect but then I have to command them to do what I want?...I'm slightly confused,,, Depends on the spirit. |
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Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:42 pm
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Saint Of Demons I see. What book(s) are these 72 Lords and the others mentioned in?
Quote: And I would be using seals correct?
Quote: So for me to get them to do anything for me I first have to honor them and earn their respect but then I have to command them to do what I want?...I'm slightly confused,,,
I see it more as placating them so they aren't pissed off, then using the sigils that give you the ability to issue your contract with them.
Quote: Alright. I am reading the books/gospels off that list and I wonder what this information will be used for in summoning?
No point in getting the phone number if you cannot operate the phone itself. |
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:53 pm
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Quote: TeaDidikai Saint Of Demons I see. What book(s) are these 72 Lords and the others mentioned in? Answered above. Ok Quote: Quote: And I would be using seals correct? For summoning the spirits mentioned above? Yes. Alright. Quote: Quote: So for me to get them to do anything for me I first have to honor them and earn their respect but then I have to command them to do what I want?...I'm slightly confused,,, Myself, I wouldn't use the terms honor the way Godhi did. I see it more as placating them so they aren't pissed off, then using the sigils that give you the ability to issue your contract with them. That makes more sense lol. Quote: Quote: Alright. I am reading the books/gospels off that list and I wonder what this information will be used for in summoning? In the summoning itself? No. But it is the foundation of the practice. No point in getting the phone number if you cannot operate the phone itself. I see. Makes sense. On that same note I doubt I can just jump straight to summoning after I've read everything right? I would need to be familiar with performing magic correct? What would I "practice" on or probably a better way of saying it "getting aquanted with magic" with? |
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Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:23 pm
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Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:40 pm
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TeaDidikai Saint Of Demons On that same note I doubt I can just jump straight to summoning after I've read everything right? I would need to be familiar with performing magic correct? What would I "practice" on or probably a better way of saying it "getting aquanted with magic" with? Depends completely on what you want to learn to do. Although, after you have read through the Gnostic Gospels and the other books on your list, there are more books to be recommended before you dive into the Lesser Keys.
I see.
eek more? I'm starting to see how this takes a while to learn. |
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Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:44 am
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:52 am
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Saint Of Demons I have been looking at The German Furthark runes and studying them, and I must say they have changed my view on things but the religion I don't really like.
Unfortunately, to get the most out of the Runes, one must really understand the Germanic Folkway, and the underlying worldview of the people whom used the Runes, and their applications in all aspects. The Runes do operate sufficiently well for basic purposes on their own, but if you wish to move ahead with them, you'll find that at a certain point, things will elude you due to a lack of understanding of underlying cultural concepts.
Saint Of Demons Although I do NOT believe in any amount of deities NOR do I WANT to because what I believe that humans ARE alone in the sense of guidance but I do believe there to be 'demons', 'angels', and other more human entities that exist for the sole purpose to interfere whether it be 'demons' to tear everything apart and add a sense of chaos to the world. 'Angels' who put a false sense of hope and protection to cover up the corruption that truly exists. Or human entities that do the same as 'demons' but on a smaller scale only striking fear and revenge.
Within the cultural context of the Germanic Folkway, what you describe is indeed a practical process within the context of the worldview of the Germanic peoples. What detailed study and understanding has elucidated for me, is that the above attitude isn't actually outside the framework of the Germanic Folkways at all. Indeed, they even had a term for such persons, Goðlauss, literally translated as 'without gods'. A person whom was Goðlauss, essentially, whilst recognising the existence of Gods and Goddesses, relied on their own might and main to secure the prosperity of themselves and their families.
Furthermore, the Germanic Folk rarely directly interacted with the Gods and Goddesses. This was the province of heroes, and indeed, is a very rare thing. The constant interaction with a God or Goddess throughout someones life, was a rare thing indeed, and often both boon and bane came with the interaction, so that one gained benefits, but also had problems which were created by the fact that one had a relationship with a particular God or Goddess.
The vast majority of interaction is with 'spirits' and the ancestors. Indeed, the notion of angels and demons as they exist in our modern understanding, is seeded in the traditional otherworld dwellers within Pagan cultures. The very term Demon is derived from Ancient Greek and is originally a neutral term, meaning simply 'spirit'. It has taken on a negative connotation through the activity of Christianity. The term Angel, simply means 'messenger'.
Within the context of the Germanic Folkway, the agents of Chaos are typically the Frost and Fire giants, whose destructive influences can be seen to be derived from the excessive characterisation of their associated elements, being Ice and Fire respectively. Too much of either and you end up with a 'desert'. The interplay of fire and ice, coming together in Ginnungagap, is what the whole multiverse is predicated on, and relates to the necessary tension between opposite forces to create life conditions.
The notion of Angels is corresponded by the Disir and possibly, the Alfar, being in this context the female, and male ancestral spirits, whom one can see often acting as messengers and/or teachers. Indeed, the power of ancestral spirits to provide forewarnings, as well as magical protection is well attested in the Germanic Lore. Demons, as they are recognised in modern concepts in real terms could be used to characterise Frost and Fire giants, as well as any other entity which is innimical to the balance of powers enabled by the Aesir and Vanir. It should be noted, that demonisation has taken place of the Aesire and Vanir by Christians to attempt to ensure the people forsook their ancestral tradtions in favour of Christianity. It also needs to be understood that not all Jotuns (giants) are enemies of the Gods and Goddesses, and indeed the primary deities of the Aesir at least, are part giant.
Your notion of destruction being covered up is interesting from the perspective of the Germanic Folkway. For within this context the process of decay and decrease is in fact a natural process, which the Aesir and to some degree the Vanir work against, more to prevent it from gaining the upper hand, than to halt it completely. Left to it's own devices, the destructive forces, would quite happily engage in destruction to the point where nothing existed, not even themselves. The duality of light/dark, and good/evil, is outside the purview of the Germanic system, for anything can be used for light/dark, or good/evil, it is the choice of the person or entity engaged in the behaviour which determines whether or not it's light/dark, or good/evil.
Saint Of Demons I am however very interested and attracted to magic whether it be ceremonial magic or just low magic.
Curious usage of terminology, 'low magic', how do you define 'low magic'?
Saint Of Demons I have been looking up White, Gray, and Black witches. I am slightly confused on these if someone could please explain.
Within a modern context, this is a methodolgy of classification of the moral code of the person concerned.
White = Good
Black = Evil
Gray = Mix of the two
Saint Of Demons I am drawn to the much darker aspects of life and believe that humans cannot be pure only evil and negative. I believe however that animals are pure (minus a few such as the snake).
Interesting philosophy. So, we should just say stuff it, and go out and crush peoples heads open and eat the goo out inside? *cough* Mayhaps not... I think that the whole concept of purity vs evil/negative is overdone, and is part of the reason that our society is starting to implode. If there is good and there is evil, then invariably, one person needs to be good, and another evil. So, the people whom believe as I do are good, those who don't are evil. The evil ones MUST be made to see the error of their ways, or killed to ensure that their taint doesn't rub off on US. Notice the terminology? Notice the doctrine? Is it a way of life which enables society to move forward as a whole, or will it ensure that violence and strife actually continue? After all, when the non-believers are triumphed over, then it's the evil ones whom used to be your friends whom are then turned on, because they believe slightly different to you, and then the next group, and the next, and the next, until only those whom believe the exact same thing are left. That is the danger of the concepts of monism. Indeed, a monotheistic society tends to be a very small society.
Ah, poor snakes, they cop a beating everywhere. Actually, snakes are usually in most belief systems seen as the bearers of wisdom/knowledge. And yes, snakes are evil in Judeo-Christianity because it was the bearer of knowledge. Oh, no, we can't have human beings having knowledge, for then, they might think for themselves, and if they are the creation of God, then obviously, if they think for themselves, they many question God. Oh no, what a terrible situation. Humans ARE the creation of GOD. They MUST obey. But... hang on... doesn't it say somewhere that they are given freedom of choice? Doesn't add up, does it. Funny about that.
Saint Of Demons Aside from these as somebody who wants to learn I am equally interested in symbols of any religion. From the pentagram to the cross to the hexagram. So a practice that involves symbols would probably entice me.
Then you ideally want to get into the really complex ceremonial stuff. OTO, GD, Dee, etc. That's got some very complext pattern, geometry and mathematically based stuff.
Saint Of Demons I would prefer a practice that involves solitude. I am not a person to go into a 'cult' if you will and practice with others. Now at the same time I would like it to be adaptable to maybe a few others say a partner (girlfriend/wife for me) or a friend or to.
Well, you could then do the Ceremonial Magic thing along the lines of Dee. He worked relatively alone, only having a few close persons whom he worked with. If you're looking at OTO and GD, from my understanding, it tends to require interaction with small groups of practicioners to raise through levels in the organisation.
Saint Of Demons As well I LOVE nature to the extent that I've spent every year of my life since I was 2 (parents told me...I liked nature books being read to me) studying it.
Affinity with nature tends to be better associated with traditional Folkways, rather than the magical orders of Ceremonial Magic.
Saint Of Demons Also...what are the dark arts? Sounds like something i might like but it also sounds like it ties in with the Christian god of evil satan...explanation please?
Last I heard it was something in Harry Potter xd
Strictly speaking, Dark Arts, are any magical workings which are against the context of the positive 'light' based, so Dark Arts in a Judeo-Christian context is anything which is outside the accepted practices of the Judeo-Christian faith. Exorcism would be seen as being a 'light' art. Summoning a 'Demon' is a 'Dark Art'. Most Ceremonial Magic is seen, therefore, as Dark Arts.
Ver thu heil |
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:31 pm
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TeaDidikai A fair amount of the questions posed were answered in previous pages. I am curious as to how you view the bulk of Asatru who use the Matron/Patron neo-pagan world view.
Heilsan Tea ok Allir,
Indeed, I read the whole thread, and was for the most part looking to address it from a Germanic Folkway perspective due to the mention of the Runes and the specific negative attributation of the ancestral Folkways.
That said, it can't hurt to re-inforce the concepts outlined by others and provide additional support for the information outlined, especially as it was within the context of making a complete response to the original posting.
With regards the concept of Matron/Patron, these ideas are indeed highly foreign to the Germanic Folkway from a traditional standpoint. To be completely frank, I personally believe it has nothing to do with the Germanic Folkway, and those whom do espouse this behaviour are indeed 'Asatru' in the context of the definition of Asatru as it existed some twenty to thirty years ago.
I have found that for the most part, many whom once were Asatru, have moved away from the terminology due to such issues. The very term Patron is from the Latin, Patronus, meaning a protector, derived from pater, a father. Among the ancient Romans, this was a master whom had freed his slaves, but still retained some rights over them. Today we consider the concept of patronage to be our placing ourselves under the protection of a god or goddess, to whom we are, in return, bound to.
Certainly there are some people whom seem to have this relationship with one or more deities (mostly it's one), but from my experience, they are actually few and far between. Now, it's interesting to note that there is an important distinction, in that there are people whom seem to personify a deity quite well, in their character, mannerisms, capabilities etc. These people certainly are similar to the deity, but often they can be completely aloof to the gods and goddesses, and hence it can be seen that a person whom expresses the personality of a god or goddess may in fact be doing it unconsciously, especially if you place credence in the concept that certain families are directly descended from certain gods, as, from what we know, was the common belief of the Germanic Folk, whom believed that each tribe was sired by a different God. Even in the lineage of the modern Royal Families of the Scandinavian nations, they still draw their lineage back to the Gods.
Can one cultivate a strong relationship with a god or a goddess, well, my answer is yes. But it's different to that of patronage in the true sense. We have conflicting concepts of how the gods were considered by the people.
Tacitus 39:
Quote: Of all the Suevians, the Semnones recount themselves to be the most ancient and most noble. The belief of their antiquity is confirmed by religious mysteries. At a stated time of the year, all the several people descended from the same stock, assemble by their deputies in a wood; consecrated by the idolatries of their forefathers, and by superstitious awe in times of old. There by publicly sacrificing a man, they begin the horrible solemnity of their barbarous worship. To this grove another sort of reverence is also paid. No one enters it otherwise than bound with ligatures, thence professing his subordination and meanness, and the power of the Deity there. If he fall down, he is not permitted to rise or be raised, but grovels along upon the ground. And of all their superstition, this is the drift and tendency; that from this place the nation drew their original, that here God, the supreme Governor of the world, resides, and that all things else whatsoever are subject to him and bound to obey him. The potent condition of the Semnones has increased their influence and authority, as they inhabit an hundred towns; and from the largeness of their community it comes, that they hold themselves for the head of the Suevians.
Now, a couple of things need to be considered here. First, Tacitus received his information from others, so this is a second or even third hand account. Also, it seems that this is a practice peculiar to this particular tribe, and as such, attributing such beliefs to all the Germanic peoples is a dangerous route to take. So, from the above, we can however see that this is one example where people provide great reverence to an almost fearful level. Are these the sorts of people you'd expect to have relationships on an equal level with a god or a goddess?
The description of the Nerthus procession likewise suggests different behaviours towards the gods and goddesses, than that which we find common among our modern practicioners of Asatru.
I personally don't believe that it's necessary to bow and scrape to the gods and goddesses, but likewise, I dislike the flippancy with which the gods and goddesses are treated by quite a number of persons whom consider themselves Asatru.
Lastly, if one considers a god or a goddess ones patron, the question that needs to be asked is, 'Where's your evidence?'. Now, factors such as 'luck' have an explanation in the Germanic Folkways, which is completely separate from the gods and goddesses, and requires no input on their behalf. Indeed, it's something I intend on addressing more completely when I sit down and write on the topic of Luck. I'll do that when I'm finished with my writing on the 'Soul' smile
Ver thu heil |
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