OH DAMN IT

[Henry Dorsett Case]

TeaDidikai

Two things to note.
1) One does not need to follow the 161 Laws to be Wiccan.

Fair enough, but the Fluffbunnies who say "TEH REDE SAYS HURT NO ONE" don't even point to the 161 Laws as secondary evidence.

Quote:

2) The 161 Laws are only as valid as they are put within a framework of persecution.

Some parts of the Old Laws lose meaning when taken out of the framework of persecution (including the rationale for "Harm None" in the Laws), but not all of them are focused around the concept of "Christians hate us, don't talk about the religion".  

[TeaDidikai]

Henry Dorsett Case

TeaDidikai

Two things to note.
1) One does not need to follow the 161 Laws to be Wiccan.

Fair enough, but the Fluffbunnies who say "TEH REDE SAYS HURT NO ONE" don't even point to the 161 Laws as secondary evidence.

And it wouldn't matter if they did because one doesn't need to follow them anymore than one needs to follow the Rede as it is laid out as a poem.

Quote:

Some parts of the Old Laws lose meaning when taken out of the framework of persecution (including the rationale for "Harm None" in the Laws), but not all of them are focused around the concept of "Christians hate us, don't talk about the religion".

I'll edit in my position on this one later.  

[Neko_Bast]

TeaDidikai

Neko_Bast

(and you did agree with me at the very end......) mrgreen

No. I didn't. I still disagree that fallacious assertions are a valid means to justify entitlement. Period.

stare

lol......I think I seem to remeber you saying you agreed with my idea.......... not the way I was trying to argue it. Thats cool though, I'm fine with calling myself a witch. biggrin  

[TeaDidikai]

Neko_Bast

TeaDidikai

Neko_Bast

(and you did agree with me at the very end......) mrgreen

No. I didn't. I still disagree that fallacious assertions are a valid means to justify entitlement. Period.

stare

lol......I think I seem to remeber you saying you agreed with my idea.......... not the way I was trying to argue it. Thats cool though, I'm fine with calling myself a witch. biggrin

No. I disagreed with your idea. Your idea was based on personal entitlement.

My idea was based on research and citation.  

[Triste-chan]

TeaDidikai

Ban Triste-chan!

TeaDidikai

Why is that awesome?

Oh, I don't know. I suppose it kind of eliminates the possibility of "LOL BUT I CAN'T GET TO A COVEN" arguments.

Although it kind of opens up the possibility of bullshitters. Hm. We seem to be in territory that's a lot more fuzzy than 'lineage/coven plzkthx,' yes?

I don't know.
I'm of the opinion that if you are not resourceful enough to find a lineaged coven and get to where they are to interact with them, I'm not sure you're resourceful enough to learn what it takes to be a part of the Clergy.

You have an excellent point. Then again, it makes it so those who are resourceful enough don't have to waste their energy on finding a group.

If anything, it would be even harder to become a self-initiated member of the clergy - you have the figure that it essentially means starting your own branch of a religion. Going to, say, ATC and getting initiated as clergy is one thing, but I would say that going out and actually getting a community of laity for you to play clergy to would be rather more complicated.

And again, I think that the requirement of Kabalistic influences, along with Wicca as a fertility cult, cuts out a rather large portion of the fluffy population. Cool.

On the matter of the Old Laws, I am pretty much in the same place - assuming the world goes insane and Wiccans start getting burned or hanged or generally harassed, go wild with them. I do think that they've got some good bits on how to deal with conflict within covens. But much of it has been made irrelevant by time. Not that they ever were relevant, but there you go.  

[TeaDidikai]

Then again- you can always pay money to Witch School.

Wait... are the Corries a Fertility Cult?  

[VisasMarr]

So what exactly happened?

Is this why various individuals in M&R aren't asking "What is your lineage? The name of your Tradition? Your coven? And what is the Elemental Weapon of Ether?"  

[Henry Dorsett Case]

TeaDidikai

Then again- you can always pay money to Witch School.

Wait... are the Corries a Fertility Cult?

Tough to say, but Wiki says they're a Cherokee/"Scottish Traditional Witchraft" blend with ties to Aradian Witchcraft (straight lineage to Leland, it appears), so my guess would be no.  

[Molly Mollusca]

VisasMarr

So what exactly happened?

Is this why various individuals in M&R aren't asking "What is your lineage? The name of your Tradition? Your coven? And what is the Elemental Weapon of Ether?"

Hint...
Triste lost. Tea is now the author if the wicca infodump... gonk That's it in a nutshell. sweatdrop  

[TeaDidikai]

Elfin Brill

Tea is now the author if the wicca infodump...

What I wouldn't give to undo that.  

[VisasMarr]

So IRAB Wiccans are indeed Wiccans?

yeesh.  

[TeaDidikai]

VisasMarr

So IRAB Wiccans are indeed Wiccans?

yeesh.

Not across the board.

If you read the thread Brill linked to- you can see on the first page that there are still standards that a large percent of the IRAB's do not meet.  

[Molly Mollusca]

TeaDidikai

VisasMarr

So IRAB Wiccans are indeed Wiccans?

yeesh.

Not across the board.

If you read the thread Brill linked to- you can see on the first page that there are still standards that a large percent of the IRAB's do not meet.

Indeed. Am I right to put it this way Tea? For I am too confused a bit...:

As far as I see it you are a wicca if you:
* are a clergy. (priest or priestess) This includes initiation. Either by the Gods of wicca or a coven.
* honour the Lord and the Lady of the craft. (they have precise names, and if you worship other deities then those, you are not wicca)
* believe in reïncarnation
* your practices include certain kabbalistic practices.
* See yourself as both wicca as witch.
* are part of a fertility cult.

If you do not do any of these things you fell into the realm of eclectic paganisme, not wicca. Is my wording correct?Language... Language.. ~sigh~  

[VisasMarr]

Elfin Brill

TeaDidikai

VisasMarr

So IRAB Wiccans are indeed Wiccans?

yeesh.

Not across the board.

If you read the thread Brill linked to- you can see on the first page that there are still standards that a large percent of the IRAB's do not meet.

Indeed. Am I right to put it this way Tea? For I am too confused a bit...:

As far as I see it you are a wicca if you:
* are a clergy. (priest or priestess) This includes initiation. Either by the Gods of wicca or a coven.
* honour the Lord and the Lady of the craft. (they have precise names, and if you worship other deities then those, you are not wicca)
* believe in reïncarnation
* your practices include certain kabbalistic practices.
* See yourself as both wicca as witch.
* are part of a fertility cult.

If you do not do any of these things you fell into the realm of eclectic paganisme, not wicca. Is my wording correct?Language... Language.. ~sigh~

Oh thanks the gods. I read that, but I wasn't sure. I was afraid....

Does this included "self-initiated" Wiccans?
Meaning, they do all of the above... they have just never been in a Coven?  

[Molly Mollusca]

I believe, only if they are initiated by the Lord and Lady of the wicca themselves. (However, how one can be sure that they are initiated by the lord and lady of the wicca without being initiated in a coven I am not sure... sweatdrop )