Music and Magic

[Deoridhe]

missmagpie

MoonJeli

I've heard a few musicians who were incredible who couldn't read music. I'm just not sure how to get to that point myself.

It's aural. Complete dependence on ear. It's pretty bloody amazing really. I have a lot of respect for those who can pick up a melody like that.

Honestly, I have more respect for people who can create and read than just parrot, but this may be a case of people appreciating most what they can't do.

missmagpie

The way it works in Irish trad is that a piece will be played in a session context. Newcomers will listen, get the tune in their heads, then try to join in or practise it at home. It's literally done entirely by listening. Irish music works particularly well for it because it's a good structure for constant repetition.

This I would love to experience. It sounds fantastic. With a regular song it usually takes me a couple of hearings before I can pick up the tune (closer to fifty or sixty for foreign languages I don't know, unless it's repetition with the phonemes in front of me.

how often is this done and with how wide a range of music? Is it ever recorded? Is there ever a free form thing like is often found with drumming?

missmagpie

Incidentally, has anyone here discovered the wondrous magic that is Glenn Gould?

Afraid not; when I have some time I'll seek him out, though. Also, if you have any nice mezzo-soprano music or musicians to recommend, I'm always looking for new songs.  

[Aya Azura]

Music is my life. My life generally revolves around it, from Loreena McKennitt, (she regave life to me), to rock, to classical (the Eroica) to anything. The Correllian Tradition incorporates music into it, in the sense of the Music of the Spheres. Generally, and more a scientific point of view, when you listen to music, the energy of the atomic particles in your body rises up to the energy of the music, or the frequency of it, so it does affect you, so (not to impose opinion, I'm trying really hard not to), but I believe it would actually be a really good idea if people did incorporate music into magical acts. Anything from chants, to classical would be good, because it helps raise energy. Also, classical music (not sure if true) brings you to a higher state of mind, and so if you meditate to it, it helps you reach the timeless, and spaceless feeling quicker, depending on what you are listening to. All in all, people really should incorporate magic and music. And as for books on this stuff, The Secret Teachings of All Ages, is a great one. Manly P. Hall. Has a whole section on Pythagoras, it's really good.  

[Pelta]

Deoridhe

missmagpie

MoonJeli

I've heard a few musicians who were incredible who couldn't read music. I'm just not sure how to get to that point myself.

It's aural. Complete dependence on ear. It's pretty bloody amazing really. I have a lot of respect for those who can pick up a melody like that.

Honestly, I have more respect for people who can create and read than just parrot, but this may be a case of people appreciating most what they can't do.

It depends on how difficult what you're doing is. Reading Irish music is bloody simple. Playing and learning it by ear is really hard. Or maybe that's just because I was brought up in a completely different musical tradition. wink

Quote:

missmagpie

The way it works in Irish trad is that a piece will be played in a session context. Newcomers will listen, get the tune in their heads, then try to join in or practise it at home. It's literally done entirely by listening. Irish music works particularly well for it because it's a good structure for constant repetition.

how often is this done and with how wide a range of music? Is it ever recorded? Is there ever a free form thing like is often found with drumming?

Irish session music is done every day in pubs all over Ireland. Someone will start up a tune. People who know it will join in. Those who don't will pick it up lickety split and join in by the second or third repetition. It's great! Irish trad is almost always played in sessions. A lot of the exported soloists aren't anything like what a true trad pub atmosphere is like. And although sessions used to only apply to Irish trad, they're starting to be picked up by other genres. Someone might start up a guitar line to a famous song and others fill in solos or harmonies. Someone might even end up playing drums on beer bottles.

Of course it's almost always a pub atmosphere. I even know someone who poured a pint down his wooden flute to soften it up to play! xd :

Sessions are rarely recorded because they're not professional. They're usually just anyone who happens to be in a certain place at a certain time playing together. There are, however, some good recorded examples of this kind of stuff. Begley and Cooney do some good accordion and flute stuff. The Dubliners are a bit cliche but also quite good. Three Men and a Dog are also around. In most session music everyone plays the same tune, so if you've got a big chorus of instruments all playing more or less the same thing then it's probably close to session music.

About the free form, it's interesting that you should mention drumming because that's a lot what it's like. Where a drum circle gets together and plays all with variations on the same basic beat, a session gets together to play with everyone doing their own small variations on the same theme. There's a very specific style. And when the music gets to a certain point, the theme will change.

Most Irish music is in an ABA format; play A section theme, go on to B section then back to A theme again. However because it's very free in the number of repetitions it becomes very easy at the end of a tune to link it straight up to another tune without a break. The music will go through several different reels, hornpipes, jigs or whathaveyou in one long string to end when the musicians finally need a drink. That goes for the dance music. Airs, songs and slower pieces are different.

Um. Did that answer your questions?

Deoridhe

missmagpie

Incidentally, has anyone here discovered the wondrous magic that is Glenn Gould?

Afraid not; when I have some time I'll seek him out, though. Also, if you have any nice mezzo-soprano music or musicians to recommend, I'm always looking for new songs.

Cecilia Bartoli is quite good. I'll look around and see what else I can find. Renee Fleming is also rather famous. Both are divas though; is that what you were looking for?

Glenn Gould is special. Very special. He was possibly autistic and lived on cookies. Extremely intelligent, his Bach is the most soulful, moving, transcendant music I've ever listened to. That's a fact. I cannot listen to his Goldberg Variations all the way through without crying, it is just so powerful. He describes it as a state of Wonder. It is the closest music has ever brought me to the sublime.

Aya Azura

The Correllian Tradition incorporates music into it, in the sense of the Music of the Spheres.

Do they actually use it in workings? If so, how?

Aya Azura

Generally, and more a scientific point of view, when you listen to music, the energy of the atomic particles in your body rises up to the energy of the music, or the frequency of it, so it does affect you

I'm not sure I agree with that from a physics point of view. Mostly because I think that if your atoms rose to the vibrational rate of music you'd probably explode. Now, if you said that spiritual energy is effected by music I would wholeheartedly agree. I've felt that power enough to know the control music has over magic.

Aya Azura

Anything from chants, to classical would be good, because it helps raise energy.

Not to be nitpicky, but no. Not all music is good to help raise energy. Putting aside things like performance quality, certain types of music are definately not good for raising energy. Arvo Paart for cello and piano is the first thing that springs to mind. Berio is another good example. It also depends on personal taste. Anything extremely slow is more likely to be of more use for grounding than for raising energy. Not to say that those kinds of music don't have their magical uses, but I would disagree to say that they're good for raising energy.

Aya Azura

Also, classical music (not sure if true) brings you to a higher state of mind, and so if you meditate to it, it helps you reach the timeless, and spaceless feeling quicker, depending on what you are listening to.

That's a rather vast generalisation. There are some rather gritty renaissance dances that are more likely to bring you to earth than to achieve a higher state of mind. And let's not forget that the "Classical" genre also comprises roughly five hundred years of musical styles and development. Are you saying it's possible to get the same effect from a plainchant parallel organum than from a Berio sequenza? Individual pieces and styles have to be taken into consideration. Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic and Contemporary music are all different periods and styles, and the amount of variation within is phenomenal.

In any case I actually agree with most of your statement. You can achieve states of being through music that are almost impossible to reach even with much contemporary meditation training. Glenn Gould is a perfect example of this kind of power in music. I just wouldn't say the meditating on classical music in general will bring you there.

Aya Azura

And as for books on this stuff, The Secret Teachings of All Ages, is a great one. Manly P. Hall. Has a whole section on Pythagoras, it's really good.

I actually quoted that in the first post. The chapter on Pythagoras is excellent and also free on Sacred-texts.com.  

[MoonJeli]

Let's see how much I can get written before I have to leave for work. xd

missmagpie

It's aural. Complete dependence on ear. It's pretty bloody amazing really. I have a lot of respect for those who can pick up a melody like that. The way it works in Irish trad is that a piece will be played in a session context. Newcomers will listen, get the tune in their heads, then try to join in or practise it at home. It's literally done entirely by listening. Irish music works particularly well for it because it's a good structure for constant repetition.

Oh, I'm doomed then. xd As far as I know, I have no ability to pick up music by ear, even simple tunes. People ask me of favorite songs, "How does it go?" and I can't hum it to save my life. If I hear a note and try to find it on the piano I usually have to be hearing it constantly to compare. It sucks to be so un-musical and yet love music so much!

My fiance can play anything he hears on the piano after one or two listens. He's been able to do that since he was a kid. He can also bring to mind any tune and sing it (i.e. "How does it go?") -- the most remarkable thing about this to me is he can do it while other music is playing. To me, that's just mind-blowing.

missmagpie

Communal music can be amazingly ecstatic. The effect a full choir can have on energy is just phenomenal (as proven by me listening to my college choir performing Elgar's Musicmakers last wednesday... Oooh the shivers!).

Elgar is... inspired. Elgar's Enigma Variations actually make me shake. I usually can't walk for a while after Nimrod. And that's just listening!

My MOST spiritual experiences have been while singing in worship. I was, erm, embraced by some and shunned by others in how devotional music affected me (I would be sobbing, shaking, raising my hands, etc.). Some felt uncomfortable or felt I was showing them up (ah, teens), others (usually church leaders) were impressed that I didn't care what other people felt about how worship moved me.

missmagpie

Unfortunately there tends to be a lack of big hefty groups of people to sing together in pagan paths. Much neo-paganism tends to be a lot more solitary than even the smallest Christian denominations. Thus, sadly, big choirs would be difficult to find.

This is somewhat disheartening but yeah, I see how this is. I know, even my youth group in church was larger than most pagan groups I could find.

missmagpie

But there are alternatives. The drum circle is one of the most striking I can think of. Communal power in a drum circle is just phenomenal. Music is a people thing. When people get together to do it properly it just blows you away.

There is a drum circle that my fiance(e)s have participated in in Portland (I live outside in the suburbs) but I haven't been. It may be something I have to seek out.

I used to work with three guys from Ghana and Mali in an African Rainforest conservation exhibit at the Oregon Zoo. They taught me a lot of things, including how to play (and communicate with) a talking drum. We had many impromptu sessions, with whoever would join in. It was fantastic.

missmagpie

Incidentally, has anyone here discovered the wondrous magic that is Glenn Gould?

Yes, yes, YES. We have his Goldberg Variations and Well-Tempered Clavier and a smattering of other stuff. Amazing, and if anyone is shopping for a recording, I usually recommend his if it's available.

missmagpie

Glenn Gould is special. Very special. He was possibly autistic and lived on cookies. Extremely intelligent, his Bach is the most soulful, moving, transcendant music I've ever listened to. That's a fact. I cannot listen to his Goldberg Variations all the way through without crying, it is just so powerful. He describes it as a state of Wonder. It is the closest music has ever brought me to the sublime.

I didn't know about the cookies! I did know he wore a huge fluffy down coat even in summer. Hehe.

missmagpie

Aya Azura

Anything from chants, to classical would be good, because it helps raise energy.

Not to be nitpicky, but no. Not all music is good to help raise energy. Putting aside things like performance quality, certain types of music are definately not good for raising energy. Arvo Paart for cello and piano is the first thing that springs to mind. Berio is another good example. It also depends on personal taste. Anything extremely slow is more likely to be of more use for grounding than for raising energy. Not to say that those kinds of music don't have their magical uses, but I would disagree to say that they're good for raising energy.

When I listen to Arvo Paart's "Fratres" it puts me into... almost a catatonic state. It's like I can't move and all I can experience is the music. It's amazing (one of my favorite pieces) and I listen to it to get that strange state, that I don't think I've experienced with many other pieces of music. (One comes to mind, an industrial piece actually, but I can't recall the band... it was also very minimalist, as far as popular music goes.)

I'm going to be late. I'd better leave the rest for after work. Heh.

(I editted this when I found out my formatting sucked and made it hard to read, sorry.)  

[Aya Azura]

Well, just like in Manly's book, they have the notes, and vowel sounds for the different planes. Also, they use them as keys to help get into a higher state of mind in mediation. I'm just studying Correllian Wicca now, and I wouldn't say I know a lot, but witchschool.com has a course on Correllian First Degree, and has a chapter on it. Like the Planes of Existence, but as for how they use it, I guess it would vary. Grouding and Energy raising music is different, you're right. I should of specified. Loreena McKennitt has both, in her intrumental music, from La Serenissima, which would ground, to the Sacred Shabbat, which raises energy. I agree with missmagpie on the choir thing, which is why I joined Chorus. Ohmygoodness, the energy when you're singing is amazing, and it instantly connects you to everybody and everything. It's an amazing feeling, truly. I'd love it if you would list more books that teach about the connecting of magic and music if you know any.  

[Deoridhe]

missmagpie

Deoridhe

missmagpie

MoonJeli

I've heard a few musicians who were incredible who couldn't read music. I'm just not sure how to get to that point myself.

It's aural. Complete dependence on ear. It's pretty bloody amazing really. I have a lot of respect for those who can pick up a melody like that.

Honestly, I have more respect for people who can create and read than just parrot, but this may be a case of people appreciating most what they can't do.

It depends on how difficult what you're doing is. Reading Irish music is bloody simple. Playing and learning it by ear is really hard. Or maybe that's just because I was brought up in a completely different musical tradition. wink

If/when we meet you can try to teach me how to read Irish music. My voice teacher was going to teach me to read music (I began with Italian Arias, of course, like any good little mezzo) but I stopped lessons before then. I also never learned to roll my /r/s, a serious weakness for any singer. I'm seriously considering picking up either voice, guitar, or harp in Graduate school to balance out all of the word-learning, though, so it might be too late by then; at osme point someone is going to force me to figure out what the little dots mean when they're on different lines.

Yes, that answered my question. Apparently, when I get to Ireland I need to haunt pubs.

You know, a CD exchange of "divine music" might be a good idea... not that I want to pirate anyone's collections, or anything. ninja Staneslovsky's "Firebird" was one of my first experiences of it, and after stumbling through the first part of Godel, Escher, Bach I discovered fugues and have never quite been the same since.  

[Pelta]

Aya Azura

I'd love it if you would list more books that teach about the connecting of magic and music if you know any.

Um. I don't really know any books. All of this is coming from my own experience.

There are snippets in some certain books, like The Shaman quoted on the first page, that deal with music, but nothing of any sort of depth. Most just say it's useful but never really tell you how or why.

MoonJeli

(One comes to mind, an industrial piece actually, but I can't recall the band... it was also very minimalist, as far as popular music goes.)

Steve Reich?

And yes, much drumming is a good thing. 3nodding Being able to play talking drums properly is a pretty fantastic skill.

Deoridhe

If/when we meet you can try to teach me how to read Irish music.

It's just the same as reading normal music. I might be able to put up a little tutorial on how to read music if you like. It's really quite simple with practise.

And yes, we must meet. You must to Ireland come!

Quote:

Yes, that answered my question. Apparently, when I get to Ireland I need to haunt pubs.

The Cobblestones is a good one. There's also a bodran player who comes to Fibbers every thursday. He's damn good.

And besides, wasn't it taken as a given that you would haunt pubs if you came here? wink

Quote:

You know, a CD exchange of "divine music" might be a good idea... not that I want to pirate anyone's collections, or anything. ninja Staneslovsky's "Firebird" was one of my first experiences of it, and after stumbling through the first part of Godel, Escher, Bach I discovered fugues and have never quite been the same since.

You sure it's not Stravinsky's Firebird? I'm not sure there are that many ballets by the same name. And while we're at it, Stravinsky's Petrushka and The Rite of Spring are awesome. The Rite of Spring is a ballet of his take on a pagan festival. It's just fantastic... and was a huge flop when it first came out. Debussy wins greatness with La Mer and Prelude du l'apresmidi d'un faun. Oh, and Syrinx is great too, though perhaps of not as much interest to non flute-players. Elgar wrote some amazing choral stuff, The Dream of Gerontius perhaps being the most famous. Wagner's entire Ring Cycle, although hefty, is well worth a concentrated listen, and his other operas like Tristan and Isolde are quite good too. Going back further you're safe with pretty much anything by Mozart, in particular The Magic Flute. All Bach is unspeakably brilliant. He also tends to overshadow his contemporaries, such as Handel, whose flute sonatas and oratorios are quite wonderful. He also tends to overshadow his sons, such as Carl-Philip Emmanuel Bach who also wrote some lovely music. Going back even further in time we have perhaps the most influential composer in the history of music: Claudio Monteverdi. He changed the world. Listen to his madrigals.

Um... It is a pretty impossible task to give someone a listening list. There is just so much out there! My advice is: If you've heard of something, listen to it. It's quite likely there's a reason you've heard of it. Even Handel's Messiah, so ridiculously overplayed, is so renowned because it's so bloody good! Also take care of certain editions. You can get some really bad recordings of this stuff, and that makes all the difference. Berlioz as a conductor is excellent, as is Bernstein (did I mention West Side Story?), Tilson Thomas, and it is possible to get recordings of Stravinsky conducting his own works. For instrumental performers there are some celebrities. In piano, Andras Schiff, Alfred Brendel and Glenn Gould are just a fraction of the good pianists. Violin it's mostly Joshua Bell, Hilary Hahn, Vengerov, Oistrach and a few others. Oistrach playing the Bach Chaconne from the Partita in D minor is incredible. For flute, technically James Galway is the best, but don't get bogged down in his cheesy stuff. I much prefer Jean-Pierre Rampal (but not for Bach), or Patrick Galois (who I had masterclasses with) if you can find his recordings of Mozart. Also beware of certain orchestras. London, NY and San Fran Phil are great, as is the Chicago Symphony. The Dublin RTE Symphony orchestra are crap, but I doubt you'd find recordings of them anyway.

Even amongst the performers there are discrepances in style and proficiency. For example, I love the way Rampal plays; he is my most admired flute player. I very much disagree with the way he plays Bach. There are certain stylistic conventions which are in place now that weren't when he recorded that make him play Bach in a style I abhorr. Patrick Galois is much better for accurate portrayal of Baroque and Classical music as they were possibly intended to sound. He does his research and plays in a sensitive, informed way. This applies to pretty much all music; a player's interpretation and style effect the way you interact with the music. So make sure you get good recordings of pieces when you buy them. There are a couple guides to classical CDs out there, such as Gramophone and Diapason. Except Diapason is in French so that might not be of much use to you...

In any case just listen around and enjoy. There's just so much out there to listen to!

 

[Aya Azura]

I totally agree with you on Debussy, also Cair de Lune is really sweet for grounding. I also can't read music, which makes Chorus that much harder. I hate having to listen to other people to know my part, because when they mess up, so do I. Instrumental pieces by Loreena McKennitt are amazing. I can't stress this enough, though I will try. Um....going to more common pieces, the Ode To Joy, and the 9th Symphony. Beethoven are great, nothing makes you feel more uplifted. I think it's a great coming out of meditation piece. I think the general explanation would be that since magic is the use of energy, and music IS energy, and using music then, is using the energy, which ever appropriate, to help direct the energy in a more precise way. That's what I think, maybe I'm wrong.  

[CuAnnan]

Aya Azura

I think the general explanation would be that since magic is the use of energy, and music IS energy, and using music then, is using the energy, which ever appropriate, to help direct the energy in a more precise way.

Music is NOT energy. What form of work do you believe comes from music itself? Sound is energy, music uses sound. That does not mean that music is energy, drop the pseudo science, there are people with scientific training at university level here.  

[Pelta]

Aya Azura

I also can't read music, which makes Chorus that much harder.

I know I come from a privelaged musical background, but I find it amazing that so many people don't read music! It's just so weird to me because I learned to read music like I learned to read words; by the age of 4 I was spelling out stuff. I may have to write up something about reading music... There are also several good online tutorials on how to read. They tend to get a bit on the complicated side though.
Click.
Click. (Oooh! This one's got listening attached!)
I might end up writing a tutorial to post here if there is much demand.

Quote:

I think the general explanation would be that since magic is the use of energy, and music IS energy, and using music then, is using the energy, which ever appropriate, to help direct the energy in a more precise way. That's what I think, maybe I'm wrong.

I wouldn't say that music is energy. It is a lot more complicated than that. Music uses energy, which is possibly why it's so close to magic, but then again that could be said of many things. Music also affects energy.

Perhaps what music does is transform energy. Perhaps in the body of the listener the sound energy is transmuted to spiritual energy, or at least has an effect on the vibrational rates of a person's supply. I'm more likely to go with the side that music has an effect as opposed to creating it. It's the performers who give the energy you pick up from music; that's why dancing at a live drum circle is so frantic. Recordings pick up from the power inherent in the actual music and sound vibrations themselves.  

[Aya Azura]

Again, I apologize for the misconception, but Reagun, I can't for the life of me even begin to fathom why you're yelling at me. I thought the whole point of this guild was for me to learn, not for you to crush me. If my mistake offended you, I'm sorry, but that's exactly what it was. A mistake. We learn from them. It's great that you have scientific training, but since some people don't, could you try to be a bit more understanding, and not chew my head off, please? Thank you so much. And thanks missmagpie for the links, I really appreciate it.  

[Pelta]

So how many people would like a post up here on how to read music?

You can PM and tell me if you're too shy to say so on the thread.  

[CuAnnan]

Aya Azura

Again, I apologize for the misconception, but Reagun, I can't for the life of me even begin to fathom why you're yelling at me.

You're making that up. These are my four modes of writing (one sentence chosen for it's repetition rather than as a go at you):
Yelling: YOU ARE NOT IRISH, MY GODS DESPISE YOU NOW SHUT THE ******** UP
Emphasis of importance: You are not Irish, my Gods despise you now shut the ******** up.
Emphasis of obviousness: You are not Irish, my Gods despise you now shut the ******** up.
No emphasis: You are not Irish, my Gods despise you now shut the ******** up.


I have been an active member of the internet since the early nineteen eighties. Can we please not lecture me on my netiquette? I keep correcting you. If you would rather I leave you in ignorance, you have but to ask. I will correct you none-the-less in case your ignorance spreads to others.

Aya Azura

If my mistake offended you, I'm sorry, but that's exactly what it was. A mistake.

It was more that you presumed to lecture about science when you clearly lack the fundamental understandings of sonics.

Aya Azura

We learn from them.

Only if we are made aware of them. Last I heard, every time we make a mistake we don't learn but every time a mistake is pointed out we are given the opportunity to learn.

Aya Azura

It's great that you have scientific training, but since some people don't, could you try to be a bit more understanding, and not chew my head off, please?

Chew your head off? Look down, able to do that? Your head is still attached. We don't like displays of melodrama here. I have not accosted you yet, I have corrected you. If you would like to see me let loose at someone, engage me in either skype or an IM client. Though, be warned, child I am a particulalry venomous type of Irish serpent.

Aya Azura

Thank you so much.

You're ever so welcome.  

[Deoridhe]

missmagpie

So how many people would like a post up here on how to read music?

You can PM and tell me if you're too shy to say so on the thread.

*jumps up and down waving her arms wildly* ^^  

[jaden kendam]

Deoridhe

missmagpie

So how many people would like a post up here on how to read music?

You can PM and tell me if you're too shy to say so on the thread.

*jumps up and down waving her arms wildly* ^^

Hmmm...I can read music, both Treble cleff and bass clef. I am also a songwriter (automatic, except for the hardcore stuff). So, if anyone wants they can pick my brain a little. Not too much though.