|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:08 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:42 am
 |
|
|
|
Lady Button Umbrae Ac Silentium To be honest that sort of logic just has a certain air of foolishness. Hey, dying in the military and voting are both idiotic, so why can't you drink? That's just as idiotic, if not more so! I don't see where you get the idiotic from. You pulled that out of thin air. I never said anything like that or intended it in that way. I'm just saying to show me a correlation between drinking and the rest. Besides, it's not like the military don't already drink on base (underaged or not). I'm going to be honest and say I don't give a ******** what the drinking age is. I don't care. I was merely saying that how does, "If you can vote, then you should be able to drink!" make ANY sense. Voting is important, as well as being in the military. Is drinking? No, far from it. Explain how they connect and I might start to care.
You know you're in love when you can't fall asleep...
Was there ever some rule that I had to restate your opinion? Or was I entitled to make my own? In short, I was agreeing with you, while pointing out the only possible correlation between the three things. Unless you count drinking as a mark of being able to be responsible to make one's own decisions. And, I laugh at that notion. If anything, it shows that someone is LESS responsible to make smart choices.
...because reality is finally better than your dreams... |
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:13 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:25 am
|
|
|
|
Lady Button Umbrae Ac Silentium You know you're in love when you can't fall asleep...
Was there ever some rule that I had to restate your opinion? Or was I entitled to make my own? In short, I was agreeing with you, while pointing out the only possible correlation between the three things. Unless you count drinking as a mark of being able to be responsible to make one's own decisions. And, I laugh at that notion. If anything, it shows that someone is LESS responsible to make smart choices.
...because reality is finally better than your dreams... Wow I hate my life! I thought your were saying that my logic has an air of foolishness. I feel stupid right about now.
You know you're in love when you can't fall asleep...
blaugh Ohh... of course, that makes sense then. No, gosh no. The logic that you were attacking has an air of foolishness. Because it makes no sense! 3nodding And that's okay, we all make mistakes.
...because reality is finally better than your dreams... |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:35 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:44 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:05 am
|
|
|
 |
Artto Lord Redtail Rathan That's why Medical Marijuana is illegal in the Military. That's why if they DO legalize marijuana (God forbid), it'll STILL be illegal in the military. While I agree that the military argument is bullshit, I'd have to disagree on the marijuana point. It doesn't make much sense to make the use for medicinal purposes illegal in the military, unless we're talking about it as strictly a symbolic restriction since pot is a "drug" (as if alcohol wasn't). If we're talking about its effects on the mind, then all mind altering drugs should be forbidden in the military - including alcohol, morphine, certain cough medicines and so on. Especially alcohol, since it has no medicinal value, except for being a moderately effective pain killer.
Tell that to Lieutenant General Eric P. Shoemaker, the Surgeon General and MEDCOM Commander, as well as the Secretary of Defense and the SG's successor.
As you can see from my signature, I happen to be a medic, so this is one arguement I know very much about.
Morphine is entrusted only to certain medical personnel that have gained the trust of their PA or unit MD. Even breaking the seal without it being used on a patient that got severely hurt causes a MASSIVE investigation that can cause the medic in question, AND the PA/MD to go to jail. The Military does urinalysis constantly, and always randomly. SOmetimes a person does three in a row, all because it was random. And when you deploy, you are forbiddon from alcohol. You get caught drinking in theater, you get royally ********. And a reason why Medical Marijuana will always be illegal is because Soldiers (All encompassing) have free health care, to include surgury or all kinds (Even one free cosmetic). So instead of marijuana, they get the issue fixed. For free, something civilians cannot do. And you have to admit, there are those ******** that abuse the system. It's not hard.
As I said before, Average Joe Soldier is held to a higher standard than Average Joe Civilian.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:50 am
|
|
|
|
Lord Redtail Rathan And a reason why Medical Marijuana will always be illegal is because Soldiers (All encompassing) have free health care, to include surgury or all kinds (Even one free cosmetic). So instead of marijuana, they get the issue fixed.
Medical marihuana is only used as supporting treatment for alleviation of symptoms, the most common example being noticeable improvements when used to treat side effects of chemotherapy. It's not a substitute for any conventional treatment. You can't just "fix" stuff like cancer. A soldier that would be using medicinal marijuana would probably be incapable of combat, due to his medical condition, anyway.
Lord Redtail Rathan As I said before, Average Joe Soldier is held to a higher standard than Average Joe Civilian.
Then why is he allowed to consume alcohol and, more specifically, why would marijuana use (responsible use, of course) be so much worse (if we leave out the fact that it's illegal, for the sake of the argument)? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:04 pm
|
|
|
|
Artto Lord Redtail Rathan And a reason why Medical Marijuana will always be illegal is because Soldiers (All encompassing) have free health care, to include surgury or all kinds (Even one free cosmetic). So instead of marijuana, they get the issue fixed. Medical marihuana is only used as supporting treatment for alleviation of symptoms, the most common example being noticeable improvements when used to treat side effects of chemotherapy. It's not a substitute for any conventional treatment. You can't just "fix" stuff like cancer. A soldier that would be using medicinal marijuana would probably be incapable of combat, due to his medical condition, anyway. Lord Redtail Rathan As I said before, Average Joe Soldier is held to a higher standard than Average Joe Civilian. Then why is he allowed to consume alcohol and, more specifically, why would marijuana use (responsible use, of course) be so much worse (if we leave out the fact that it's illegal, for the sake of the argument)?
To the first part: A soldier that is diagnosed with cancer is chaptered out of the Army anyway. And there are soldiers incapable of combat that are in anyway because they are good soldiers. I know a man that retired after 20 years, never left the US. And yes, certain cancers CAN be fixed. Otherwise my friend would be dead of Ovarian and my ex-girlfriend would be dead of Cervical. I would be dead. Surgery is a very good thing.
Two: You can't leave out that marijuana is illegal "for the sake of arguement" because of the fact that your arguement don't exist then. But alas, there is some things to bring up as to WHY it's illegal and alcohol isn't...
1. Alcohol related incidents involving a soldier that had been drinking is negligent compared to civillians, due to extensive training. A soldier is a lot of money...it takes the US almost $150,000 to train one soldier for nine weeks of Basic Combat Training. I personally am worth $1.2 million at this very moment.
2. The impairing effects of Marijuana are stronger than alcohol. And they take effect almost immediately, depending on your tolerance. It's not something you can sip on for a time and be used socially. And if I were sitting next to you and I was drinking and you weren't, no effect on you. If I were smoking weed and you weren't, you just got a contact high.
3. Contrary to popular belief, marijuana frys your brain cells. Alcohol only effects your liver, and only after a decent amount is consumed. There's a reason the FDA has declared it a narcotic, yet alcohol is still legal to an extent. Alcohol is not addicting. Marijuana is. And you have to remember that it's called a Gateway drug. There's a reason for that. Ever hear of PCP? most marijuana is laced with it these days. Makes you want to by other things. And marijuana loosens your inhibitions quicker and more powerfully than alcohol.
And to ward off what I know is coming, Congress has been trying to make cigarettes illegal for decades now, ever since the mid-70's. The problem is, because it was already legal, too many voters (all smokers) are keeping them legal, but only by a VERY slim margin. Give it another 5-10 years and cigarettes will be illegal. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:21 pm
|
|
|
|
Lord Redtail Rathan 1. Alcohol related incidents involving a soldier that had been drinking is negligent compared to civillians, due to extensive training. A soldier is a lot of money...it takes the US almost $150,000 to train one soldier for nine weeks of Basic Combat Training. I personally am worth $1.2 million at this very moment.
Why would it be any different with pot?
Lord Redtail Rathan 2. The impairing effects of Marijuana are stronger than alcohol. And they take effect almost immediately, depending on your tolerance. It's not something you can sip on for a time and be used socially. And if I were sitting next to you and I was drinking and you weren't, no effect on you. If I were smoking weed and you weren't, you just got a contact high.
The effect isn't neceseraly imediate, depends of the method of consumption - you can also eat stuff infused with pot, like brownies. Please look up what "contact high" means. You can get a contact high form alcohol, too.
Lord Redtail Rathan Alcohol is not addicting. Marijuana is.
What?? Ever heard of alcoholism? Alcohol is very addictive. It's way more addictive than marijuana, since it causes serious physical withdrawal symptoms, while marijuana doesn't.
Lord Redtail Rathan And you have to remember that it's called a Gateway drug. There's a reason for that.
By the same reasoning as marijuana gets labeled a gateway drug, alcohol can be labeled a gateway drug - after all, almost everyone who ever tried any drug, tried alcohol first.
Lord Redtail Rathan Ever hear of PCP? most marijuana is laced with it these days.
Source?
Lord Redtail Rathan And marijuana loosens your inhibitions quicker and more powerfully than alcohol.
From my personal experience, alcohol makes you do a lot more crazy stuff. Pot just makes you lazy and hungry.
It's about responsible use and it goes the same for alcohol or pot. I have experience with both. Personally, I don't like pot, but I've had my share of the stuff when I was younger. And it's in no way as horrible as you describe it. I have no bad experiences with pot and a ton of bad experiences with alcohol.
Having a joint here and there won't have any negative consequences, just as having a beer here and there won't. It's all about moderation and responsible use. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:45 pm
|
|
|
|
Artto Lord Redtail Rathan 1. Alcohol related incidents involving a soldier that had been drinking is negligent compared to civillians, due to extensive training. A soldier is a lot of money...it takes the US almost $150,000 to train one soldier for nine weeks of Basic Combat Training. I personally am worth $1.2 million at this very moment. Why would it be any different with pot? Lord Redtail Rathan 2. The impairing effects of Marijuana are stronger than alcohol. And they take effect almost immediately, depending on your tolerance. It's not something you can sip on for a time and be used socially. And if I were sitting next to you and I was drinking and you weren't, no effect on you. If I were smoking weed and you weren't, you just got a contact high. The effect isn't neceseraly imediate, depends of the method of consumption - you can also eat stuff infused with pot, like brownies. Please look up what "contact high" means. You can get a contact high form alcohol, too. Lord Redtail Rathan Alcohol is not addicting. Marijuana is. What?? Ever heard of alcoholism? Alcohol is very addictive. It's way more addictive than marijuana, since it causes serious physical withdrawal symptoms, while marijuana doesn't. Lord Redtail Rathan And you have to remember that it's called a Gateway drug. There's a reason for that. By the same reasoning as marijuana gets labeled a gateway drug, alcohol can be labeled a gateway drug - after all, almost everyone who ever tried any drug, tried alcohol first. Lord Redtail Rathan Ever hear of PCP? most marijuana is laced with it these days. Source? Lord Redtail Rathan And marijuana loosens your inhibitions quicker and more powerfully than alcohol. From my personal experience, alcohol makes you do a lot more crazy stuff. Pot just makes you lazy and hungry. It's about responsible use and it goes the same for alcohol or pot. I have experience with both. Personally, I don't like pot, but I've had my share of the stuff when I was younger. And it's in no way as horrible as you describe it. I have no bad experiences with pot and a ton of bad experiences with alcohol. Having a joint here and there won't have any negative consequences, just as having a beer here and there won't. It's all about moderation and responsible use.
1. Seeing as how it would never be legalized, that question can't be answered.
2. Fine. Let me rephrase that. You can't get drunk sitting next to me while I drink, but you can get high.
3. You obviously have never work in a psych ward where addicts broke their habits. I have. It takes a LOT of alcohol to develop alcoholism, and there's normally outside stressors from life that cause it.
4. Bullshit. As you like to say "Source?" I know MANY a pot smoker that has never drank in their life.
5. Ask any DEA official, cop, doctor, or drug dealer that has been busted. Also: Check EVERY medical report on someone that was examined while high or coming off of it. Also: We had four soldiers pop hot for marijuana in my brigade. Every one of them also popped hot for PCP.
6. Your experience is one against many many others. Most people when they get drunk get sad and lazy. Or talkative.
Your point of view comes from being Average Joe. My view comes from the Medical standpoint, where I can actually SEE what it's effects are. And I agree that it should be kept illegal.
And food for thought: Amsterdam is making marijuana illegal due to health concerns. Amsterdam. Munch on that one for a while. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:10 pm
|
|
|
|
Lord Redtail Rathan 4. Bullshit. As you like to say "Source?" I know MANY a pot smoker that has never drank in their life.
Everyone I know have tried alchohol before pot. Practically everyone I know has tried pot at some point in their life (excluding my mother and grandmother). None of them are drug addicts.
Lord Redtail Rathan 5. Ask any DEA official, cop, doctor, or drug dealer that has been busted. Also: Check EVERY medical report on someone that was examined while high or coming off of it. Also: We had four soldiers pop hot for marijuana in my brigade. Every one of them also popped hot for PCP.
Got any more accessible sources?
Lord Redtail Rathan Most people when they get drunk get sad and lazy.
Ever been to any party? Or a club? Coming from a country where social drinking is very common, "sad and lazy" drunk people are not very common. Unless you're totally shitfaced lying on the floor puking.
Lord Redtail Rathan Your point of view comes from being Average Joe. My view comes from the Medical standpoint, where I can actually SEE what it's effects are. And I agree that it should be kept illegal.
My point of view comes from a country where pot isn't being unecessarily demonized (still illegal, but the laws are usually not enforced). And practically everyone I know trying pot at some point, some being regular smokers and none of them having any problems whatsoever.
Lord Redtail Rathan And food for thought: Amsterdam is making marijuana illegal due to health concerns. Amsterdam. Munch on that one for a while.
They are banning it because of drug turism and the nuisances related to that. And they are only banning turists from coffee shops. They are not making marijuana illegal, since it already is illegal, but the laws are not enforced.
Also:
(Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17382831) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:18 pm
|
|
|
|
Artto Lord Redtail Rathan 4. Bullshit. As you like to say "Source?" I know MANY a pot smoker that has never drank in their life. Everyone I know have tried alchohol before pot. Practically everyone I know has tried pot at some point in their life (excluding my mother and grandmother). None of them are drug addicts. Lord Redtail Rathan 5. Ask any DEA official, cop, doctor, or drug dealer that has been busted. Also: Check EVERY medical report on someone that was examined while high or coming off of it. Also: We had four soldiers pop hot for marijuana in my brigade. Every one of them also popped hot for PCP. Got any more accessible sources? Lord Redtail Rathan Most people when they get drunk get sad and lazy. Ever been to any party? Or a club? Coming from a country where social drinking is very common, "sad and lazy" drunk people are not very common. Unless you're totally shitfaced lying on the floor puking. Lord Redtail Rathan Your point of view comes from being Average Joe. My view comes from the Medical standpoint, where I can actually SEE what it's effects are. And I agree that it should be kept illegal. My point of view comes from a country where pot isn't being unecessarily demonized (still illegal, but the laws are usually not enforced). And practically everyone I know trying pot at some point, some being regular smokers and none of them having any problems whatsoever. Lord Redtail Rathan And food for thought: Amsterdam is making marijuana illegal due to health concerns. Amsterdam. Munch on that one for a while. They are banning it because of drug turism and the nuisances related to that. And they are only banning turists from coffee shops. Also:
1. Brooke Army medical Center (Services civilians as well) statistics on that: +90% drank AFTER becoming regular smokers. Memorial hermann northwest hospital has almost the same statistics. This point is hereby invalid.
2. Nope. Sorry kid.
3. Yes. i have. And what you see on TV/read about/hear about is untrue. Especially if you're not in the US.
4. Again, medical standpoint. medicine reveals what the media and the people hide.
5. Really? Sorry, but I'd rather believe my buddy who I'd trust with my life, as well as my Uncle, who can get me a lot more information on that then you ever could.
Also: Your graph makes absolutely no sense to me. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:28 pm
|
|
|
|
Lord Redtail Rathan 1. Brooke Army medical Center (Services civilians as well) statistics on that: +90% drank AFTER becoming regular smokers. Memorial hermann northwest hospital has almost the same statistics. This point is hereby invalid.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17151165
Lord Redtail Rathan 3. Yes. i have. And what you see on TV/read about/hear about is untrue. Especially if you're not in the US.
I'm talking from personal experience, and parties are definately not full of sad and lazy people. If alcohol made "most people sad and lazy", why would anyone even drink?
Lord Redtail Rathan 5. Really? Sorry, but I'd rather believe my buddy who I'd trust with my life, as well as my Uncle, who can get me a lot more information on that then you ever could.
That's not really an argument.
Lord Redtail Rathan Also: Your graph makes absolutely no sense to me.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17382831
I see this isn't going anywhere. It's probably because I'm a dirty stinking liberal hippy. Or maybe because I'm arguning with someone who says that "Alcohol only effects your liver" and that alcohol isn't addictive. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:38 pm
|
|
|
|
Artto Lord Redtail Rathan 1. Brooke Army medical Center (Services civilians as well) statistics on that: +90% drank AFTER becoming regular smokers. Memorial hermann northwest hospital has almost the same statistics. This point is hereby invalid. Lord Redtail Rathan 3. Yes. i have. And what you see on TV/read about/hear about is untrue. Especially if you're not in the US. I'm talking from personal experience, and parties are definately not full of sad and lazy people. Lord Redtail Rathan 5. Really? Sorry, but I'd rather believe my buddy who I'd trust with my life, as well as my Uncle, who can get me a lot more information on that then you ever could. That's not really an argument. Lord Redtail Rathan Also: Your graph makes absolutely no sense to me. Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17382831I see this isn't going anywhere. It's probably because I'm a dirty stinking liberal hippy.
1. I wish I could hook my harddrive into this computer, then I could link you 20+ reports that contradict that, one of them written by the Surgeon General himself.
2. Personal experience does not hold any weight whatsoever here. Because my personal experience comes from fellow soldiers, and bars and clubs in the places I've been.
3. Let me rephrase that: I'd believe those two over you, and the reasons they give me have nothing to do with tourism. And to give you an idea of my Uncle, I'd believe him over the SG in a heartbeat.
4. I read that description. And the first link. They are so full of medicalese that they might as well stamp "Bullshit" all over the place.
The reason it's going no where is because this is the wrong topic. And because we have two different sources and information as well as being from two different countries. And personally, and I mean no disrespect by this, but you're not in the US. So why are you even debating this with me, on either the drinking age OR the legalization of marijuana?
And I never said it isn't addictive. I said marijuana is MORE and is EASIER to become addicted to. And I'm talking a PERMENANT effect on the body. Alcohol's effect on the mind is temporary. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
