Tarot?

[TeaDidikai]

Ultramarine Violet

eek Let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly - what you're saying is, that cross-referencing and building associations through media other than the cards themselves has potential to interfere with what sounds like an almost instinctive reaction to the cards?

(Not challenging - paraphrasing to confirm understanding.)

It's a base understanding, yes. This can also be contaminated by referencing media associated with the cards themselves as well.

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I'm guessing that since you referred to the 'instinctive' types as the Listeners, that the reaction is not to imagery, but to something more internal, yes?

It would depend on the person and their reading style. Like I said, it's a scale, not an absolute.

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Really? Ick. I must have skimmed over that in the little booklet - it spent so much time pitching her Angels oracle deck that I could very well have missed a reference to that.

It's in her books as I recall. I can try and find them, they're in a storage unit about thirty miles north of here.  

[FlySammyJ]

TeaDidikai

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I'm wondering if you have any numbers, though.

Not to hand. Likely no one does, considering you'd have to catalog by publisher, country of origin, age- to say nothing of the fact that there are decks that had small runs and some that have completely disappeared.

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I'm only going on observations, but I'd be willing to bet that out of all the decks in actual use in the states, RW and RW-style decks are pretty dominant, and have been for long enough to make an impression. So I guess I meant contemporary (pop culture) standard.

I'm inclined to disagree. Rider-Waite and those based on the deck has a niche. Thoth has a niche, usually amongst CMers and Thelemites (in the rare case those two don't overlap). But by far, the most commonly produced deck was the IJJ, a reproduction of an 1860 tarot deck that US Games Inc first published. It's a Visconti-Sforza styled deck. The Rider-Waite based decks have decades of catching up to do before the sheer sales numbers overtake the older decks.

Might be worth nothing that the Tarot de Marseilles is another hugely popular Visconti-Sforza based deck- rivaling the popularity in the Americas of the Rider-Waite based decks.

I'll buy it.

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Well, for a start, you might want to learn to correlate the actual meanings of the cards to their non-pictorial counterparts.

Wouldn't the actual meanings of the cards depend on the context from which they came and the way in which they're read? They were a game before they were a tool, after all, and I've never really seen a satisfactory explanation of why each card is ascribed the meaning it ended up with. I've memorized the standard meanings of the cards, of course, their associations and relationships, but I certainly don't think that's all they have to say. Can you elaborate?

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If nothing else, it might show the quality of your reading.

I tend to judge my reading by other rubrics.

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What makes you think that animism applies more heavily to things that are made by you than things made by others?

Magic.

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A well made tool does carry an impression of its maker,

I hope not. I'd find it highly insulting to have a tool I bought from JoAnn's to carry the stress and turmoil of the individual who manufactured it.

That's why I try not to buy from sweatshops.

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If the animistic principle- the spark of being is within these things- to suggest that it's mere design is what dictates it's passions is rather insulting.

If this is what you gathered from my statements then either I miscommunicated or you misunderstood. Design is of course not 'what dictates its passions,' only an influence. A strong one, under certain circumstances.

All things are whole unto themselves. All things contain the whole. The whole contains all things. When a thing is made, it is made from other things, with their own wholeness, and their own being. A hatchet is made from iron, wood, and the maker. The maker controls design, and also how much of herself goes into the made.

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How so? I see the relationship between the deck and the reader as like that between the fiddle and the player. Both have their own qualities and strengths, and the music is where the two meet.

You

When I go to this deck with a question, it tells me exactly what I need to know, no more and no less, without sugarcoating anything.

See how that is a contradiction. It's telling you- you're not placing any importance on the reader or their skills.

Didn't I speak to the reader in my last post? I see my contradiction, but you're ignoring my continuity.

TeaDidikai

Ultramarine Violet

eek Let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly - what you're saying is, that cross-referencing and building associations through media other than the cards themselves has potential to interfere with what sounds like an almost instinctive reaction to the cards?

(Not challenging - paraphrasing to confirm understanding.)

It's a base understanding, yes. This can also be contaminated by referencing media associated with the cards themselves as well.

I think we coat the cards with specific, rich symbolism for a reason, and the media is not to be ignored. Your seer v listener scale bring up the point that tarot is not the best divination system for all people or situations. I use cartomancy when I seer and other methods (hydromancy, pyromancy, or scrying) when I listen for exactly those purposes. Not to separate the two - as you said a decent diviner uses the best of all methods available.

edited for clarity  

[TeaDidikai]

demisara

Wouldn't the actual meanings of the cards depend on the context from which they came and the way in which they're read? They were a game before they were a tool, after all, and I've never really seen a satisfactory explanation of why each card is ascribed the meaning it ended up with. I've memorized the standard meanings of the cards, of course, their associations and relationships, but I certainly don't think that's all they have to say. Can you elaborate?

I can comment on other traditions:
We talk about their role as a game, but there are also illusions to their role as a memory tool, a set of flash cards.

For decks like the Thoth deck, there is an association between it and the pathways between the Sephera and other traditions have a numerological reference to them.

Still other decks comment upon the Hero's Journey and how it relates to spiritual struggles in one's life.

Whatever other traditions do is pretty much their business. Their justification doesn't really sway my tradition. ~shrugs~

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What makes you think that animism applies more heavily to things that are made by you than things made by others?

Magic.

That is a tricky proposition. So you're more adept at imbuing an essence then all the other artists?

Reading this, my suspicion is that this is not a function of animism, but of sympathy.

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That's why I try not to buy from sweatshops.

You missed the point. Your position is a proof by assertion.

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If this is what you gathered from my statements then either I miscommunicated or you misunderstood. Design is of course not 'what dictates its passions,' only an influence. A strong one, under certain circumstances.

All things are whole unto themselves. All things contain the whole. The whole contains all things. When a thing is made, it is made from other things, with their own wholeness, and their own being. A hatchet is made from iron, wood, and the maker. The maker controls design, and also how much of herself goes into the made.

That's a flawed assertion since it assumes that 1) the maker controls the reflection of the self and not the impressionability of the material to say nothing of the specific actions going into the fashioning to begin with.

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I see my contradiction, but you're ignoring my continuity.

Intentionally so. Why contest what I agree with?

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I think we coat the cards with specific, rich symbolism for a reason, and the media is not to be ignored.

And I think that to project alien forms of meaning onto other traditions is ignorant and base. ~shrugs~  

[FlySammyJ]

TeaDidikai

I can comment on other traditions:
We talk about their role as a game, but there are also illusions to their role as a memory tool, a set of flash cards.

For decks like the Thoth deck, there is an association between it and the pathways between the Sephera and other traditions have a numerological reference to them.

Still other decks comment upon the Hero's Journey and how it relates to spiritual struggles in one's life.

Whatever other traditions do is pretty much their business. Their justification doesn't really sway my tradition. ~shrugs~

So you're saying that I should deduce their meanings according to my own tradition? This assumes I haven't done so already. The images used are another layer of meaning or association that may or may not be useful to the interpretation, not the determinant.

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Magic.

That is a tricky proposition. So you're more adept at imbuing an essence then all the other artists?

Not at all. I was originally going to use the analogy of a painter, and how he can be said to pour himself into his work.

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Reading this, my suspicion is that this is not a function of animism, but of sympathy.

Well I'll admit the line is blurry for me.

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That's why I try not to buy from sweatshops.

You missed the point. Your position is a proof by assertion.

Sorry, I never took debate.

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That's a flawed assertion since it assumes that 1) the maker controls the reflection of the self and not the impressionability of the material to say nothing of the specific actions going into the fashioning to begin with.

I don't really see the reflection and impression as a duality. Medium and mode use both on a scale.

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I see my contradiction, but you're ignoring my continuity.

Intentionally so. Why contest what I agree with?

Again sorry, I was having a conversation, not a debate. It's easier to have a conversation when you know what your common ground is.

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I think we coat the cards with specific, rich symbolism for a reason, and the media is not to be ignored.

And I think that to project alien forms of meaning onto other traditions is ignorant and base. ~shrugs~

Oh, I get it, I'm taking tarot cards out of context. Cultural appropriation. Never mind their history in my culture or whatever. ******** some relativism. Sorry.  

[TeaDidikai]

demisara

So you're saying that I should deduce their meanings according to my own tradition? This assumes I haven't done so already.

It assumes no such thing. It merely comments on my position.

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The images used are another layer of meaning or association that may or may not be useful to the interpretation, not the determinant.

You're misunderstanding the point. External layers of meaning can be a determinant. For example, how would you presume to tell me that the coloration of a particular card, which clearly shows uncleanliness within my tradition, should be read as "purity" without you indulging in your ethnocentrism.

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Not at all. I was originally going to use the analogy of a painter, and how he can be said to pour himself into his work.

And while there are artists that bleed for their art- there are pieces that demand to be independent, artists who withhold and a host of other things.

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Well I'll admit the line is blurry for me.

If it's blurry for you, why not say so from the beginning and acknowledge that the presence of an animistic element is not dependent on the creator, but your perception thereof is strengthened by your hand thus has more to do with sympathy then souls?

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Sorry, I never took debate.

Do you need it further explained?

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I don't really see the reflection and impression as a duality. Medium and mode use both on a scale.

That's another proof by assertion.

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Again sorry, I was having a conversation, not a debate. It's easier to have a conversation when you know what your common ground is.

I don't personally treat debate like it's a dirty word myself.

I think a lot of these assumptions, especially when they lead to you setting yourself up to be a god, deserve to be challenged and questioned.

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Oh, I get it, I'm taking tarot cards out of context. Cultural appropriation. Never mind their history in my culture or whatever. ******** some relativism. Sorry.

No- ******** anyone who tries to suggest that decontextalization should be universal.  

[Silver Luminate]

I am quite new to tarot, I have bought a Tarot Deck called The Original Rider-Waite Tarot Deck by A.E. Waite, It came with a small divinatory chart of the Celtic Cross tarot spread and the tiny book with the Ouroboros symbol on it "The Key to the Tarot" by A.E. Waite.

I have experimented with spreads like the Past Present Future tarot spread, and have tried out the Celtic Cross tarot spread. I am unsure of how to read the tarot cards as there seems to be many meanings associated with the same card, for example The World - Assured success, voyage, Route, emigration, flight, change of place, Reversed - Inertia, fixity, stagnation, permanence. Source - "The Key to the Tarot" A.E. Waite.

Websites online seem to be giving different meanings or close to the same but not exactly the same meanings or even more meanings. It's quite confusing, So how does one interpret the Tarot Cards?  

[TeaDidikai]

Luminated Occultist

It's quite confusing, So how does one interpret the Tarot Cards?

Typically contextually.

I've seen folks who are trying to impress people by not having any context and being "on the mark".

Some of it is also based on experience. Eventually your tradition will provide an understanding or you'll come up with your own.  

[TeaDidikai]

Luminated Occultist

Are there any books that you could recommend?

What tradition are you of?  

[Silver Luminate]

TeaDidikai

Silver Luminate

Are there any books that you could recommend?

What tradition are you of?

I am a Christian.  

[rmcdra]

Silver Luminate

TeaDidikai

Silver Luminate

Are there any books that you could recommend?

What tradition are you of?

I am a Christian.

Valentin Tomberg might be a good start. here  

[Kuroiban]

Glee!

http://www.shadowscapes.com/Tarot/cardsmain.php?suit=0

I'm SO waiting for this deck! It comes from one of my more favored artists.  

[FlySammyJ]

TeaDidikai

demisara

The images used are another layer of meaning or association that may or may not be useful to the interpretation, not the determinant.

You're misunderstanding the point. External layers of meaning can be a determinant. For example, how would you presume to tell me that the coloration of a particular card, which clearly shows uncleanliness within my tradition, should be read as "purity" without you indulging in your ethnocentrism.

Did I suggest any such thing? I fail to see what you're getting at.

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Not at all. I was originally going to use the analogy of a painter, and how he can be said to pour himself into his work.

And while there are artists that bleed for their art- there are pieces that demand to be independent, artists who withhold and a host of other things.
I find this more likely to happen with wood than with canvas.

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Well I'll admit the line is blurry for me.

If it's blurry for you, why not say so from the beginning and acknowledge that the presence of an animistic element is not dependent on the creator, but your perception thereof is strengthened by your hand thus has more to do with sympathy then souls?

Because I think there is change taking place during the creation process. I'm not an essentialist. Just like sustained exchange with other humans changes both me and them, such intercourse between the artist, muse, and medium changes each. That isn't a proof, just an opinion. I don't know how in the hell you expect me to use proofs in this range of conversation.

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Sorry, I never took debate.

Do you need it further explained?

I was saying that I don't know what a proof by assertion is. I've since looked it up, and fail to see how I've made it.

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I don't really see the reflection and impression as a duality. Medium and mode use both on a scale.

That's another proof by assertion.

I think we discussed before that I'm a soft polythiest. Does it make sense to expand the concept to soft-individualist? Would that make my perceptions make more sense?

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Again sorry, I was having a conversation, not a debate. It's easier to have a conversation when you know what your common ground is.

I don't personally treat debate like it's a dirty word myself.

Neither do I. I was simply noting that we were using two different rules for engaging in conversation, and this can easily lead to misunderstanding. I'm not asking you to change your mode.

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I think a lot of these assumptions, especially when they lead to you setting yourself up to be a god, deserve to be challenged and questioned.

I don't shrink from question, I'm just terrible at making myself understood.

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Oh, I get it, I'm taking tarot cards out of context. Cultural appropriation. Never mind their history in my culture or whatever. ******** some relativism. Sorry.

No- ******** anyone who tries to suggest that decontextalization should be universal.

Did I?  

[mirawin]

i have both oracle and tarot deck of which i prefer the oracle. the cards are smaller and i've had them for longer so my understanding/ interpretation is better with it. Just wanted to say how informative i found this topic for the most part and it has given me some food for thought about things i never considered like making my own spread.
i would like to add though that the side arguments kind of draw one out of the discussion and i just wonder if there is not a better place then in the middle of a honestly asked question in search of knowledge; to have these arguments with each other. Now i'm not specificly pointing to anyone as i have no wish to start another argument or trouble with anyone its just these little fights that pop up in the middle of topics can scare people who are perhaps new to all this and might fear asking questions for fear that someone will attack them or pick apart everything little thing they happen to say. Its just a thought!