This is a stupid question but I'm going to ask anyway thread

[Yanueh]

too2sweet

I think (other than within specific traditions which may have certain requirements), the key is that you are clearly visualizing a door (of sorts), that can be opened and closed without disturbing the rest of the circle. So in theory you could make that door in whatever way you choose. The zipper method might be ok, but the curtains maybe not so much - that sort of implies that there wasn't a complete "un-broken" circle.

Kk. Maybe imagine a big slimy self-healing membraneous alien egg thingy instead.  

[Esiris]

Ultramarine Violet

]The way of making an athame and the symbols that mark it, from what I understand, have more to do with preparing it to behave a certain way with some types of energy.

That's what I was trying to say. Thanks for putting it better! sweatdrop

Quote:

My teacher has said often that "Method is nice, but in the end it's all headology." Basically meaning that the most important thing in magic is intent - tools are just that, tools, and the first tools humans had for anything were the hands. If you're comfortable with the feel and the visualization, it should be a-okay to cut out of a sacred space with your hands, unless you're practicing within a tradition that specifically dictates otherwise.

3nodding I get the impression Wicca is one of those traditions- but my best guess is that it has to do with the difference between what most people do when they cast a circle and how different a Wiccan circle is.

Quote:

I've also heard of people visualizing a circle wide enough to encompass the nearest housecoat and bathroom, just to cover their bases, though I don't tend to do it myself, except at the request of other participants. sweatdrop

whee  

[Dante Moonshadow]

Runs With Beetles

question:
is it possible for one to summon baphomet using hoodoo rit, as long as one pays proper homage to the law of the gates?

I suppose one could, but as was mentioned before...it's not likely an intelligent idea. Summoning much of anything from another plane is generally best done with a group, and even then it's questionable, too many variables really. Not to mention there would need to be a valid reason to summon the entity. Generally, they don't take too kindly to being summoned to be pestered with questions they would likely deem to be trivial, and they take even less kindly to being summoned to carry out the bidding of a mortal. Depending on the nature of the entity, to summon them to do your bidding can be quickly reversed. Having first-hand experience in handling possessions, i can say that it's not by any means a fun outcome. In short, just because you can doesn't necessarily mean you should.  

[saint dreya]

Esiris

Quote:

My teacher has said often that "Method is nice, but in the end it's all headology." Basically meaning that the most important thing in magic is intent - tools are just that, tools, and the first tools humans had for anything were the hands. If you're comfortable with the feel and the visualization, it should be a-okay to cut out of a sacred space with your hands, unless you're practicing within a tradition that specifically dictates otherwise.

3nodding I get the impression Wicca is one of those traditions- but my best guess is that it has to do with the difference between what most people do when they cast a circle and how different a Wiccan circle is.

Possibly.

***Any initiated Wiccan, please correct me if I am wrong.***

Given how Wiccan is orthopraxic, it might require that a blade be used to open the circle. As I understood it, each tool upon the altar had a specific purpose and was also to evoke certain event, internal or no, when used in the capacity intended.

Mind, I'm not saying it's not okay for you to use your hands. In one's own practices, one's own experiences are more often going to count for more than what someone else's. Some religions require certain things to fall under their umbrella, though. No issue either way, really.  

[Ultramarine Violet]

saint dreya

***Any initiated Wiccan,

Present! 4laugh

Quote:

please correct me if I am wrong.***

Given how Wiccan is orthopraxic, it might require that a blade be used to open the circle. As I understood it, each tool upon the altar had a specific purpose and was also to evoke certain event, internal or no, when used in the capacity intended.

Mind, I'm not saying it's not okay for you to use your hands. In one's own practices, one's own experiences are more often going to count for more than what someone else's. Some religions require certain things to fall under their umbrella, though. No issue either way, really.

I don't know for sure if it's a solid right/wrong, actually. I've been present at Wiccan circles where some participants did not have their athames, and used their hands (held flat or with two fingers extended to signify direction of energy), but I've never been in a circle where the officiators did not have access to an athame.

I'll ask my HP/S next week, when I see them.

[ EDIT ] My fiancee, who is also 1* Gard, has pointed out to me that our coven's training/mindset is a bit unusual, and he says that an athame is required for a Trad-proper circle. I'm still gonna verify, but Tris has a better memory for detail than I, so... Probably correct.

[EDIT EDIT] So my HP tells me that for a Gardnerian circle that is totally Tradition-proper, an athame is necessary. He seemed to indicate that this is only the case until the practitioner is of a certain degree, but didn't elaborate any more on it, and I opted not to press the issue.

So, the answer is "Most, if not all of the time, yes."  

[Ultramarine Violet]

So, this recent discussion has gotten me thinking, and inspired me to write a ritual with a bare minimum of tools, to explore the idea of getting away from dependency on these props.

There's one thing I keep getting stuck on, though: libation.

Because this is a project independent of my Trad work, I thought I'd poll here before continuing on: what's the general feeling here about offerings of energy?  

[saint dreya]

Ultramarine Violet

Because this is a project independent of my Trad work, I thought I'd poll here before continuing on: what's the general feeling here about offerings of energy?

If anything involving energy, I usually prefer something I've put my energy into making; crocheted a hat, cooked a cake, written a poem, etc.

I feel I can control how much energy I give this way.  

[Ultramarine Violet]

saint dreya

Ultramarine Violet

Because this is a project independent of my Trad work, I thought I'd poll here before continuing on: what's the general feeling here about offerings of energy?

If anything involving energy, I usually prefer something I've put my energy into making; crocheted a hat, cooked a cake, written a poem, etc.

I feel I can control how much energy I give this way.

That's a good point, and it's given me loads of ideas that are still fairly minimalist, but psychologically satisfying at the same time. Thanks!

Maybe, rather than eliminating the physical libation, I'll make the components from scratch... It seems more honest, that way, anyhow. Dunno why I don't do that to begin with.  

[saint dreya]

Ultramarine Violet

saint dreya

Ultramarine Violet

Because this is a project independent of my Trad work, I thought I'd poll here before continuing on: what's the general feeling here about offerings of energy?

If anything involving energy, I usually prefer something I've put my energy into making; crocheted a hat, cooked a cake, written a poem, etc.

I feel I can control how much energy I give this way.

That's a good point, and it's given me loads of ideas that are still fairly minimalist, but psychologically satisfying at the same time. Thanks!

Maybe, rather than eliminating the physical libation, I'll make the components from scratch... It seems more honest, that way, anyhow. Dunno why I don't do that to begin with.

I don't know about you, some offerings are completely out of blue, almost as if they simply say, "hey, I want this from you. May I have it?"  

[Ultramarine Violet]

saint dreya

Ultramarine Violet

Maybe, rather than eliminating the physical libation, I'll make the components from scratch... It seems more honest, that way, anyhow. Dunno why I don't do that to begin with.

I don't know about you, some offerings are completely out of blue, almost as if they simply say, "hey, I want this from you. May I have it?"

I know what you mean! This is especially odd to me when it involves something outside of a ritual context... For instance, I've been thinking a lot recently about how to be of service in my community. I haven't got a whole lot of time or money on my hands, after all.

Since I began thinking about this, I have done a circle for another purpose (my aunt's in the hospital again) and the next day I discovered opportunities to donate blood (there's a Red Cross location across from my fiancee's work) and hair (my hairdresser is working with Locks of Love this summer). At risk of sounding like a fluff... I really think that the gods have put these opportunities in my path because our interests coincide on this point.

So, needless to say, I'll be donating some DNA pretty soon. 4laugh  

[saint dreya]

Ultramarine Violet

saint dreya

Ultramarine Violet

Maybe, rather than eliminating the physical libation, I'll make the components from scratch... It seems more honest, that way, anyhow. Dunno why I don't do that to begin with.

I don't know about you, some offerings are completely out of blue, almost as if they simply say, "hey, I want this from you. May I have it?"

I know what you mean! This is especially odd to me when it involves something outside of a ritual context... For instance, I've been thinking a lot recently about how to be of service in my community. I haven't got a whole lot of time or money on my hands, after all.

Since I began thinking about this, I have done a circle for another purpose (my aunt's in the hospital again) and the next day I discovered opportunities to donate blood (there's a Red Cross location across from my fiancee's work) and hair (my hairdresser is working with Locks of Love this summer). At risk of sounding like a fluff... I really think that the gods have put these opportunities in my path because our interests coincide on this point.

So, needless to say, I'll be donating some DNA pretty soon. 4laugh

Nice!  

[DemoniaFairy]

I'm trying to get a better understanding of Christianity and the bible. I don't plan to be a follower, I am trying to expand my knowledge of many religions.
I was wondering if there was a particular version that is the most historically correct?
I got the New World Translation from the Salvation Army, but somebody told me that the King James version is the only "real" christian bible. Is that true?

I noticed in a program on the History channel they were making references to Christian beliefs but they often quoted from the Hebrew bible. Is the Hebrew bible the Old Testament or another book entirely?

Also, if anyone can help me find good sources or good articles on the history of Christianity, it's origins etc. you would be a big help. biggrin  

[Eltanin Sadachbia]

DemoniaFairy

I'm trying to get a better understanding of Christianity and the bible. I don't plan to be a follower, I am trying to expand my knowledge of many religions.
I was wondering if there was a particular version that is the most historically correct?
I got the New World Translation from the Salvation Army, but somebody told me that the King James version is the only "real" christian bible. Is that true?

I noticed in a program on the History channel they were making references to Christian beliefs but they often quoted from the Hebrew bible. Is the Hebrew bible the Old Testament or another book entirely?

Also, if anyone can help me find good sources or good articles on the history of Christianity, it's origins etc. you would be a big help. biggrin

It's nice to be able to contribute, instead of just learning from here... LOL

One thing that many Christians believe is that the Bible is synonymous with history text book, which isn't the case. Yes, parts of the Bible quote history, but it is itself, a religious text. The main point of the stories found within are for spiritual purpose, and so as such, I myself do not believe that there is a certain translation that is more "Real" than any other, as long as the principles taught within are the same. All translations that I have came across describe the same events in the same verses in the same order, just with different wording.

Many people do say that the Old King James is the only real Bible. Most people can't even understand the wording of the King James version though... maybe that's why there are so many arguments within the different sects of Christianity. LOL

Anyway, the first 5 books of the Bible are equivalent to the Torah, but because of the linguistic nuances of the Hebrew language, it doesn't always come across in translations the way it is meant to by the Hebrew language. It is always best to have a Bible dictionary (even online) that can break down certain words to their basis when studying the deeper meanings of the scriptures.

Another thing to note about the Bible is that it started as a collection of smaller works, and letters, and groups of men argued for centuries on what texts should and shouldn't be included. They weren't only Hebrew texts, but also Greek and Latin. It is also worth taking note that many quotes of other Hebrew sources are found within the Bible, but the sources are not texts found within the Bible itself... There are many texts that were important to the early Christians that were left out of the Bible we have today.

I think that you would do well to read through the Bible you have, it will be much easier to understand than the King James version. Then if you are interested in learning more, you can search for non-canonical texts (early Christin works that didn't make it to the Bible). Try to keep an unbiased attitude, because you must realize society and culture are different today, and it's easy to think some things are 'unfair', such as how women are treated and the like.

Here is a pretty cool place to find links to online translations of several early Christian writings, those that made it to the Bible and some that didn't- Early Christian Writings

Bible Dictionary- You can look up a verse and then the individual words within to try to find their original meanings.

If you want to know more about the history of Christianity itself, just do a Google search. I am a bit hesitant to give you specific links because they tend to be pro-Christianity, and anti-Christianity, which just means that they are biased in favor of their own argument for or against the religion. I would suggest you read articles from both sides to get the bigger picture, and stay away from articles written by specialty groups (such as pro/anti women or pro/anti gay) because they tend to use incomplete quotes from the Bible to demonize the opposing side, with no real history to help.  

[DemoniaFairy]

Eltanin Sadachbia

DemoniaFairy

I'm trying to get a better understanding of Christianity and the bible. I don't plan to be a follower, I am trying to expand my knowledge of many religions.
I was wondering if there was a particular version that is the most historically correct?
I got the New World Translation from the Salvation Army, but somebody told me that the King James version is the only "real" christian bible. Is that true?

I noticed in a program on the History channel they were making references to Christian beliefs but they often quoted from the Hebrew bible. Is the Hebrew bible the Old Testament or another book entirely?

Also, if anyone can help me find good sources or good articles on the history of Christianity, it's origins etc. you would be a big help. biggrin

It's nice to be able to contribute, instead of just learning from here... LOL

One thing that many Christians believe is that the Bible is synonymous with history text book, which isn't the case. Yes, parts of the Bible quote history, but it is itself, a religious text. The main point of the stories found within are for spiritual purpose, and so as such, I myself do not believe that there is a certain translation that is more "Real" than any other, as long as the principles taught within are the same. All translations that I have came across describe the same events in the same verses in the same order, just with different wording.

Many people do say that the Old King James is the only real Bible. Most people can't even understand the wording of the King James version though... maybe that's why there are so many arguments within the different sects of Christianity. LOL

Anyway, the first 5 books of the Bible are equivalent to the Torah, but because of the linguistic nuances of the Hebrew language, it doesn't always come across in translations the way it is meant to by the Hebrew language. It is always best to have a Bible dictionary (even online) that can break down certain words to their basis when studying the deeper meanings of the scriptures.

Another thing to note about the Bible is that it started as a collection of smaller works, and letters, and groups of men argued for centuries on what texts should and shouldn't be included. They weren't only Hebrew texts, but also Greek and Latin. It is also worth taking note that many quotes of other Hebrew sources are found within the Bible, but the sources are not texts found within the Bible itself... There are many texts that were important to the early Christians that were left out of the Bible we have today.

I think that you would do well to read through the Bible you have, it will be much easier to understand than the King James version. Then if you are interested in learning more, you can search for non-canonical texts (early Christin works that didn't make it to the Bible). Try to keep an unbiased attitude, because you must realize society and culture are different today, and it's easy to think some things are 'unfair', such as how women are treated and the like.

Here is a pretty cool place to find links to online translations of several early Christian writings, those that made it to the Bible and some that didn't- Early Christian Writings

Bible Dictionary- You can look up a verse and then the individual words within to try to find their original meanings.

If you want to know more about the history of Christianity itself, just do a Google search. I am a bit hesitant to give you specific links because they tend to be pro-Christianity, and anti-Christianity, which just means that they are biased in favor of their own argument for or against the religion. I would suggest you read articles from both sides to get the bigger picture, and stay away from articles written by specialty groups (such as pro/anti women or pro/anti gay) because they tend to use incomplete quotes from the Bible to demonize the opposing side, with no real history to help.

Thank you so much for your help! biggrin
I will definitely remain unbiased, I have nothing against Christians or their religion. I am going to be very busy for a while...
My mom invited me to join a bible study with her and a small group from the church she attends. She knows I have other interests and understands it would only be for intellectual reasons. Do you think it would be disrespectful for me to join even though I don't follow the religion or their deity?