Music and Magic

[Pelta]

Ok, for those of you who've proferred lyrics, again I make no promises. I have another project first to post when I get my scanner working. It may be weeks, months or years before I get to putting something to music, but it probably will happen eventually.

Deo, I heard music in my head when I read that Ode you posted. Is it ok if I attempt to do something with it? It probably wouldn't be very complicated, most likely drawing on something of a cantus firmus/plainchant style. And it might be completely different to what you expect. It just got the inner instruments twitching so I'd like to give it a go.

Sovereign, many artists work best under strict confines. Stravinsky wrote some of the best ballets to extremely rigorous rules and sections. So I have a little project if you want to take it:
2 lines (rhyming or not, it's up to you)
14 syllables total (7 per line)
Topic: Coming together or justice being done, or alternatively seven syllables for apparent equality.

This could be fun. But don't worry about it if you don't get to it. It aint essential. Tis just a little project for fun if you'd like to try. 3nodding  

[Deoridhe]

missmagpie

Deo, I heard music in my head when I read that Ode you posted. Is it ok if I attempt to do something with it? It probably wouldn't be very complicated, most likely drawing on something of a cantus firmus/plainchant style. And it might be completely different to what you expect. It just got the inner instruments twitching so I'd like to give it a go.

Go for it. That was my first Ode, ironically enough, and it was triggered by a religious discussion. Several of the images are overtly religious, and the numerology certainly is.

missmagpie

Sovereign, many artists work best under strict confines.

I work well that way. Some of my best poetry is Sonnets, which are horribly difficult to write in English, apparently.  

[Pelta]

Numerology

Credit goes to reagun ban for this idea.

So one thing we haven't touched on much is the numerological aspect of music. Music can be looked at mathematically as sequences of intervals. An interval, just to recap, is the space between two notes. This can be a harmonic interval, where two notes are played at the same time, or a melodic interval, where two notes are played in succession. Intervals are always measured from the lowest note sounded.

Intervals are what give music shape, or indeed are what make music work. Music can also be thought of as sequences of consonances and dissonances; tension and resolution. Certain harmonic intervals are dissonances, others are consonances. To take a basic approach to it:

Dissonances: 2nds, 4ths, 7ths
Consonances: Unisons, 3rds, 5ths, 6ths, Octaves

Unisons, Perfect Fifths and Octaves are called Perfect consonances. They have additional rules governing them in elementary counterpoint, which is where I drew my ideas for this discussion. Note that I am referring to harmonic intervals; melodic intervals can be saved for another time. It is also important to note that all dissonances must be resolved to a consonance in western classical music.

So for a simple example, D - E is a major second. If played at the same time they create a dissonance. This can then resolve to D - F (a minor third) to create a consonance and relieve our ears. That's kinda the basic principle.

Right, on to the fun stuff.

Once deciding that I was going to write a contrapuntal piece, I created two cantus firmi. Counterpoint is the art of two or more interweaving melodic lines. The cantus firmus is the base (or the first melody, if you like) that you build the counterpoint on.

So I sat down at my piano and wrote:


Note: All of the musical examples will be written in C clefs. Middle C is denoted by the line between the two squiggles. For more information, look here. In this example, middle C is on the middle line of the staff.

In any case, because C clefs are hard to get the hang of, the notes are:
D - F - D - A - D - C - D2 in the first section.
D2 - A - C - G - A - E - D in the second section.
Not to complicated, and rather simple cantus firmi. Play them through a couple times if you like. If playing on the tin whistle, remember the F and C naturals. Otherwise you'll be in D major instead of D dorian! xp

So I then put my two cantus firmi against a D pedal note. It looks like this:

and


The numbers between the staves denote the intervals created between the melody and the pedal note. 1 is a unison, 8 an octave. You get the idea. In this example the top line uses the soprano clef; middle C is on the bottom line of the staff.

Oh, and just as a disclaimer, this isn't anything like traditional counterpoint. My counterpoint teacher would kill me for this. I'm simply using the idiom.

So as you see, Example A is made up of mostly consonances, the only dissonance being the 7 in the antipenultimate bar. Originally the two first examples were meant to be played in succession with the sustained D in the lower part. So let's look a little closer. The two examples are in two seven bar phrases. The first phrase rises an octave, the second returns down the octave. They are two halves of a whole, although each could stand on their own. This is important for later.

I then combined the two:


I wanted it to end on a unison, so I had the bottom line start two octaves below the top. Thus the top line comes down the octave and the bottom line rises to meet in exactly the middle of where it started. This sounds surprisingly cool.

This also finally brings in how this has anything to do with magic. When I sat down at the piano I was resolved to write a contrapuntal piece for the purpose of equality, or for someone to get what they deserve; justice. This particular combination would work incredibly well for that for several reasons. First of all, the 7-bar phrase is divided neatly into two sets of three by the strongest dissonance in the counterpoint: the minor 7th in bar four. Secondly, the melodic motion of both lines brings together the two singers to the unison on the final note. Although they are in contrary motion they arrive in equality. Thirdly, all of the melodic intervals are also in contrary motion (read: going in opposite directions) to finally arrive on the same note. Finally, the end 'cadence' is the resolution of a third to a unison, which is just the perfect motion for two lines to come together.

So we have the perfect counterpoint for balance between two parties, or for justice or equality. For let's not forget, all of that is just in the music itself. That's before you add words. Because in the end, it's probably supposed to be sung.

Before I forget, the last example included compound intervals (Ie. intervals of over an octave). To easier understand the consonances and dissonances, it might make more sense to give you the intervals of 8 - 3 - 7 - 7 - 5 - 3 - 1. I know I said the 7th in bar four is the strongest dissonance, even though there is a compound 7th right before it. This is because the compound dissonance of the 7th in bar three is not as strong. Try playing them - the closer two dissonant notes are together the stronger the dissonance assaults the ear.

There is still one more example, where I superimposed both on top of each other in the same range. This was before I realised they weren't going to end on a unison this way:


However, this works in a different way. This includes the interesting (and incredibly illegal in species 1 and 2 counterpoint) phenomenon of part-crossing. This is where the lower part goes higher than the upper part. Thus the negative intervals denote where the bottom line goes over the top. Intervals are still measured from the lowest note.

Here we have the same two cantus firmi superimposed over each other in the same register. Thus the two parts essentially make an X, the lower line ending where the top line began and vice versa. Again, the strongest dissonance is in bar four - a major second this time. This version sounds very different to example D from the previous working, and therefore I believe would have a different magical effect. Because of the much more apparent balance in this example, it could possibly used to much benefit for equality or the balancing of a situation.

Try playing them all on a piano if you can, and remember that they are meant to be sung or played on separate instruments; Ie they are in distinct parts. Don't get confused by the part-crossing.

This was a little fanciful project of mine and hasn't been used for anything yet. This was to demonstrate a potential technique for the integration of music and magic drawing from the idiom of counterpoint. I hope it hasn't been to technical to understand, and would love to hear questions and feedback.

Thanks for your time.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

That's so cool. It also gave me the motivation to figure out my midi program since I don't have a piano or a keyboard and my tinwhistle's at home, just to see what it sounded like. smile  

[Pelta]

TheDisreputableDog

That's so cool. It also gave me the motivation to figure out my midi program since I don't have a piano or a keyboard and my tinwhistle's at home, just to see what it sounded like. smile

Oh s**t midi is so evil. I absolutely hate my music technology class. But it can be bloody useful too. If you've got a midi keyboard you could play it there. Also you could do all sorts of crazy crap with it if you edit it into the note editor. Like play it way to fast to hear or put a chromatic line right through it. Silly computer craziness. xd  

[TheDisreputableDog]

missmagpie

TheDisreputableDog

That's so cool. It also gave me the motivation to figure out my midi program since I don't have a piano or a keyboard and my tinwhistle's at home, just to see what it sounded like. smile

Oh s**t midi is so evil. I absolutely hate my music technology class. But it can be bloody useful too. If you've got a midi keyboard you could play it there. Also you could do all sorts of crazy crap with it if you edit it into the note editor. Like play it way to fast to hear or put a chromatic line right through it. Silly computer craziness. xd

Yeah, for chorus in high school I had the job of "midi gremlin"--transcribing all our pieces to midi files so the people who couldn't read music could practice their parts.

missmagpie

or alternatively seven syllables for apparent equality.

Does What goes must come; what comes, go work? Might be a little too "rule of three" now that I'm looking at it, but it popped into my head today.  

[MoonJeli]

I'm sure you may have gathered from the Harry Potter thread that I'm a classical music and opera geek.

I can't read music. I have dyscalculia (it's like a math learning disability) which makes it really hard for me to make out the staff. I know intellectually which note is which, but I have to count up the bars -- my mind can't just "take it in" and see where they are. I took band in grade school (clarinet and alto sax) and piano lessons in middle school to no avail. I was frustrated from the years of practicing and still unable to read music, and my teachers taught in a way that one would have to be able to read music to learn. I could play a song fine once I memorized it, but that was a very difficult thing for me to get to.

I do play a didge and ocarina badly though! xd Both instruments that you can learn to play at home in your spare time without reading music.

At any rate, I wish I could get into it again, but my confidence in my ability sucks.

My family are very music oriented, and as a baby I would be lulled to sleep listening to folk or rock, such as Melanie, Harry Nilsson, Doors, Pink Floyd or Moody Blues. My mom played the piano and I would lie on the floor next to the piano bench and listen for hours.

My fiance is really the one who got me into classical music. He sings, plays the piano and composes (secretly to himself, he'd never show me his works). He is musically gifted, and can play anything he's heard, and so on. Classical music, I think, is his religion, along with literature and poetry.

One of the reasons I came here is I miss music spiritually. In the Christian church I went to, music was communion -- it was sort of Pentacostal leaning, with ecstatic sorts of traits, though not like you'd see in actual Pentacostal churches (Foursquare for those who know it).

That's why I'm seeking... something... again. Music to me IS spiritual and I need that in my life. I need participatory music. Chant, hymns... something.  

[Pelta]

MoonJeli

I can't read music. I have dyscalculia (it's like a math learning disability) which makes it really hard for me to make out the staff. I know intellectually which note is which, but I have to count up the bars -- my mind can't just "take it in" and see where they are. I took band in grade school (clarinet and alto sax) and piano lessons in middle school to no avail. I was frustrated from the years of practicing and still unable to read music, and my teachers taught in a way that one would have to be able to read music to learn. I could play a song fine once I memorized it, but that was a very difficult thing for me to get to.

You're not the only one with that problem. I can't imagine not reading music, but I know it's extremely difficult for some. That's why I put up the note names on my posts with melodies. If you like I can use the Helmholtz system of notation.

Middle C is: c'. The C below Middle C is: c. Every subsequent octave gets another '. So a scale from the C below Middle C looks like:

c d e f g a b c' d' e' f' g' a' b' c'' d'' e'' etc.

Anything lower than the octave below c' is denoted by a capital letter. Lower than that the capital letter gets a '.

Does that make sense?

Quote:

I do play a didge and ocarina badly though! xd Both instruments that you can learn to play at home in your spare time without reading music.

You do know there are exceptional trad musicians all around the world who never read a note of music in their lives? Some of the most amazing Irish musicians barely know what key they're playing in but man can they play it! The same goes for most drummers.

Music isn't about being able to read or do theory. Music existed well before any kind of notation was invented. It will persist long after. It's aural and spiritual, and ears and souls are things that most people possess.

Quote:

My family are very music oriented, and as a baby I would be lulled to sleep listening to folk or rock, such as Melanie, Harry Nilsson, Doors, Pink Floyd or Moody Blues.

Paul Simon was mine. As well as Bach and Wagner... ninja

Quote:

That's why I'm seeking... something... again. Music to me IS spiritual and I need that in my life. I need participatory music. Chant, hymns... something.

Oh I know that feeling far too well. That's why I created this thread in the first place. I think it's just one aspect of pagan spirituality that is missing in so many faiths. I mean, Christians have their chorales, Muslims their call to prayer, Hindi have fantastic songs and mantras... The list is endless. But for some reason it doesn't seem to have been as much embraced in many neo-pagan religions*. Part of that is that many established religions had centuries of development and composers and their disposal. I think it has been quite a long-standing trend of music to be acknowledged as one of the most spiritual collective ways of worship, and that again is something that is lacking in many pagan paths.

Not completely, though. There are still songs to sing. I am a great proponent of changing words to existing melodies. Or if that doesn't work, write your own. Drum circles and trad sessions are still going strong, and even much classical music can be appropriated for spiritual fulfillment. Ultimately it would be desirable to write stuff yourself to play with other people, but music is such a soulful thing in general that a simple hummed tune can have as much power as a full chorale if you know what you're doing.

That said, music is also about people. It's not a lonely art. It's important to have a collective base of believers if you want to write a specifically pagan song. And that is something sorely lacking. Not that that's a bad thing. It just means we can't have huge choirs. But even Bach's chorales were probably meant to be sung one-to-a-part....

I don't entirely know what I'm getting at here. It's lacking, but we can do something about it. It's just a matter of knowing that it's possible, and knowing how. That's why I've been posting up these techniques and things as they come to me. It's to get the ball rolling, so to speak.


*Yes, I know Hinduism is technically pagan but not so much part of the current trend towards neo-pagan religions.  

[Pelta]

TheDisreputableDog

Yeah, for chorus in high school I had the job of "midi gremlin"--transcribing all our pieces to midi files so the people who couldn't read music could practice their parts.

Wow. eek They actually did that for people? I've never heard of a choir here that writes out things in midi for those who can't read. That seems like a lot of effort, but also a really good idea. Say, if you figure out my counterpoint stuff on midi, would you mind posting it here? It'd be great to have that actually in the thread.

Oh, just don't use the general midi violin. It sounds like an organ farting. xp

Quote:

missmagpie

or alternatively seven syllables for apparent equality.

Does What goes must come; what comes, go work? Might be a little too "rule of three" now that I'm looking at it, but it popped into my head today.

I'm not entirely sure that would work, but it's the right idea. Here's a few too:
What is lost will come again
Balance woven comes as one
Motion towards a whole... (that one's not quite 7, but we're allowing for a bit of mellisma...)
That sort of thing. There's also the possibility of using the first two examples in tandem, thus ending up with 14 syllables in the line.

I'm just not sure I could keep up this sort of contrapuntal working for a whole piece. I might try to do a simple song at some point. The hardest part is finding a good, catchy melody.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

missmagpie

Say, if you figure out my counterpoint stuff on midi, would you mind posting it here? It'd be great to have that actually in the thread.

Oh, just don't use the general midi violin. It sounds like an organ farting. xp

Putfile link to example

Stupid GarageBand doesn't actually do midi files so it's mp3, and I don't have my own webspace anymore so it's Pufile, my sincerest apologies.

I put all three versions of it on the same file. The first part is each cantus firums in sequence. The second part is the two simultaneously in the same octave (example C). The third part is with the bottom line starting two octaves below the top line (example D).

I just realized I forgot example A with the D pedal note, but I don't think it would've sounded great given the instruments I've got to work with.

Hope that's useful. 3nodding  

[Pelta]

TheDisreputableDog

missmagpie

Say, if you figure out my counterpoint stuff on midi, would you mind posting it here? It'd be great to have that actually in the thread.

Oh, just don't use the general midi violin. It sounds like an organ farting. xp

Putfile link to example

Stupid GarageBand doesn't actually do midi files so it's mp3, and I don't have my own webspace anymore so it's Pufile, my sincerest apologies.

I put all three versions of it on the same file. The first part is each cantus firums in sequence. The second part is the two simultaneously in the same octave (example C). The third part is with the bottom line starting two octaves below the top line (example D).

I just realized I forgot example A with the D pedal note, but I don't think it would've sounded great given the instruments I've got to work with.

Hope that's useful. 3nodding

Maybe I'm stupid but it doesn't seem to be working. Maybe there's something wrong with the file? I dunno.

Thanks for working on it anyway! I really think midi is such a pain in the a** so I really appreciate it!  

[TheDisreputableDog]

missmagpie

Maybe I'm stupid but it doesn't seem to be working. Maybe there's something wrong with the file? I dunno.

Thanks for working on it anyway! I really think midi is such a pain in the a** so I really appreciate it!

Boo. It was working for me. I'll see what's up. There's another thing I can use.  

[MoonJeli]

missmagpie

You're not the only one with that problem. I can't imagine not reading music, but I know it's extremely difficult for some. That's why I put up the note names on my posts with melodies. If you like I can use the Helmholtz system of notation.

Middle C is: c'. The C below Middle C is: c. Every subsequent octave gets another '. So a scale from the C below Middle C looks like:

c d e f g a b c' d' e' f' g' a' b' c'' d'' e'' etc.

Anything lower than the octave below c' is denoted by a capital letter. Lower than that the capital letter gets a '.

Does that make sense?

Yes it does! I've been looking up more information on it as well, and actually found it in one of our music theory books. I find it fascinating that it's used in the medical and scientific communities. Thank you!

Quote:

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I do play a didge and ocarina badly though! xd Both instruments that you can learn to play at home in your spare time without reading music.

You do know there are exceptional trad musicians all around the world who never read a note of music in their lives? Some of the most amazing Irish musicians barely know what key they're playing in but man can they play it! The same goes for most drummers.

I've heard a few musicians who were incredible who couldn't read music. I'm just not sure how to get to that point myself.

Quote:

Music isn't about being able to read or do theory. Music existed well before any kind of notation was invented. It will persist long after. It's aural and spiritual, and ears and souls are things that most people possess.

Ironically I think that one of the things that ties me so desperately to music is that I come from a Deaf family. My dad is congenitally Deaf, as were his parents and brothers, various of my aunts and extended family beyond that. My paternal uncles are almost all linguists and researchers into language development. My mom is hearing, and both my sister and I were born hearing.

I have this fear that some day I'll lose my hearing -- a fear grounded in reality -- and I'll lose music.

The fear has been eased somewhat over the years by incredible Deaf musicians like Evelyn Glennie. At least, if I can't hear it, I can still feel it. It's still terrifying.

I make my fiance sing so that I can capture that sound and remember it. I surround myself with music whenever possible. My other fiancee isn't very music-oriented, unlike us, and so I have to work around her, with less MUSIC ALL THE TIME like I grew up with.

Quote:

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That's why I'm seeking... something... again. Music to me IS spiritual and I need that in my life. I need participatory music. Chant, hymns... something.

Oh I know that feeling far too well. That's why I created this thread in the first place. I think it's just one aspect of pagan spirituality that is missing in so many faiths. I mean, Christians have their chorales, Muslims their call to prayer, Hindi have fantastic songs and mantras... The list is endless. But for some reason it doesn't seem to have been as much embraced in many neo-pagan religions*. Part of that is that many established religions had centuries of development and composers and their disposal. I think it has been quite a long-standing trend of music to be acknowledged as one of the most spiritual collective ways of worship, and that again is something that is lacking in many pagan paths.

I wrote in my introduction that this was one of the things drawing me to seek my spirituality again. The time I spent in a Christian church was intense and very spiritual. I miss "chapel", the worship songs and hymns, so much that I find myself wanting to go to church just for that, despite my beliefs not being compatible. When I noticed this draw, I realized I needed to look again at the lack of the spiritual in my life.

I can't sing worth beans. (Maybe I inherited my sense of key from my dad, heh.) Normally I am extremely shy about it, but not so when I have sang in celebration, spirit or worship. Nothing moves me like music, whether it be shaking as I sit listening to Nimrod, or singing my heart out in praise of a god. I have a leaning toward ecstatic experiences, and chants, hymns and the like really do it for me.

I just don't know enough, though, and that's why I came here. I'm hoping, eventually, to find someone who can be a mentor to me in finding such a path. I have read a lot of books and as I get some money plan on going through the "recommended books" list here and reading the ones I haven't yet, but it's a connection with people, sharing that music, that I want to find.

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Not completely, though. There are still songs to sing. I am a great proponent of changing words to existing melodies. Or if that doesn't work, write your own. Drum circles and trad sessions are still going strong, and even much classical music can be appropriated for spiritual fulfillment. Ultimately it would be desirable to write stuff yourself to play with other people, but music is such a soulful thing in general that a simple hummed tune can have as much power as a full chorale if you know what you're doing.

I actually think that for the past couple years, classical music HAS been my connection to the spiritual. So much of it is in praise of things greater than ourselves, so I've at least had that. It hasn't been participatory though, and while my fiance understands and is moved by music, there aren't many people who have that same connection to it in my life.

I don't know if I have the ability to write music (does anyone remember Mario Paint? ha!) but it does greatly appeal to me as a spiritual tool.

Quote:

That said, music is also about people. It's not a lonely art. It's important to have a collective base of believers if you want to write a specifically pagan song. And that is something sorely lacking. Not that that's a bad thing. It just means we can't have huge choirs. But even Bach's chorales were probably meant to be sung one-to-a-part....

It's the people part that is missing from my spiritual life, indeed. I was hoping of finding a path that fits me and that is musically oriented, but I don't know if there is anything like that out there.  

[Pelta]

MoonJeli

I've heard a few musicians who were incredible who couldn't read music. I'm just not sure how to get to that point myself.

It's aural. Complete dependence on ear. It's pretty bloody amazing really. I have a lot of respect for those who can pick up a melody like that. The way it works in Irish trad is that a piece will be played in a session context. Newcomers will listen, get the tune in their heads, then try to join in or practise it at home. It's literally done entirely by listening. Irish music works particularly well for it because it's a good structure for constant repetition.

So you pick up a tune and play it, much like you might hum something you hear on the radio. This gets a little more complicated when applying to things like Beethoven sonatas, but a well-trained ear can pick up melodies and some chordal structures quite easily.

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I miss "chapel", the worship songs and hymns, so much that I find myself wanting to go to church just for that, despite my beliefs not being compatible.

Communal music can be amazingly ecstatic. The effect a full choir can have on energy is just phenomenal (as proven by me listening to my college choir performing Elgar's Musicmakers last wednesday... Oooh the shivers!). Unfortunately there tends to be a lack of big hefty groups of people to sing together in pagan paths. Much neo-paganism tends to be a lot more solitary than even the smallest Christian denominations. Thus, sadly, big choirs would be difficult to find.

But there are alternatives. The drum circle is one of the most striking I can think of. Communal power in a drum circle is just phenomenal. Music is a people thing. When people get together to do it properly it just blows you away.

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It hasn't been participatory though, and while my fiance understands and is moved by music, there aren't many people who have that same connection to it in my life.

Be prepared to wait. Even as a music student I very, very rarely get chances to play with other people. But when it does happen it keeps us up till after midnight playing everything we can get our hands on.

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It's the people part that is missing from my spiritual life, indeed. I was hoping of finding a path that fits me and that is musically oriented, but I don't know if there is anything like that out there.

Neither do I. Look, a lot of neo-pagan paths are hard. They're lonely, difficult roads that you often have to forge for yourself. It'd be great if things were readymade and easy but unfortunately that's not the case for a lot of us. You have to find what works, and if you find a way to work music into that more power to you.

Incidentally, has anyone here discovered the wondrous magic that is Glenn Gould?  

[queertastrophy]

missmagpie

(Super-amazing post about numerology and music, music theory, magic, etc.)

That's bloody amazing. heart I can see myself enjoying many experimentations with this idea.

So, the fall semester next year (I've all ready picked out my spring classes, or else I'd do it then) shall be filled with funeral service and music theory classes.

I've been meaning to write some kind of lyric having to do with the Aesir, or a certain God I'm feeling fond of from that pantheon for a bit now, or even adding music to certain powerful lines from the Eddas, and I'm trying to calculate how well I can mesh these two ideas...

(It would probably be good if I got my piano tuned, so it wasn't a whole half-step flat, neh? sweatdrop )