Baptism and Converting

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Bastemhet>> What denomination? My suspicion is that someone would be in deep s**t for that kind of thing- profaning the Host and all.

Well, this is what happened to me, actually. I was in a Catholic private school even though I was not Catholic. Mother was raised traditionally Catholic, but didn't practice, so decided not to baptise me- also for the reason that my father is I think Protestant...but seeing as how he has dementia, there would be no point asking because I don't think he really recognizes me so much as remembers what he practiced. I think he was pretty much "generic Christian" and was not so much a hardliner for church hierarchy dogma but I'll have to ask my mother to be sure.

In 2nd grade the whole school had to go to the church and take 2nd communion. Seeing as I was not baptised and did not partake of 1st communion, my teacher thought that it would be ok for me to eat the wafer but not drink the juice. I have no idea why she thought that and I did as I was told because I didn't know any better.

Only other experience that may be near an oath but I don't consider it as such is an informal church meeting where children were asked to come to the front if they wanted to allow Jesus into their heart. I did this to try and establish a relationship with him but he did not answer, and never has. I saw that as more of an invitation to establish a relationship with me, not an oath to follow him and by proxy God.  

[TeaDidikai]

Damn. That teacher caused you to defile the Host. eek  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Damn. That teacher caused you to defile the Host. eek

That might explain why he didn't bother to answer my request for a relationship. I'll need to apologize, then. I hope he can forgive me. I really had no idea what was going on. sweatdrop  

[Gho the Girl]

TeaDidikai

Damn. That teacher caused you to defile the Host. eek

I don't think Yeshua would hold it against her, seeing as how it wasn't in her intent to do so.  

[TeaDidikai]

Bastemhet

TeaDidikai

Damn. That teacher caused you to defile the Host. eek

That might explain why he didn't bother to answer my request for a relationship. I'll need to apologize, then. I hope he can forgive me. I really had no idea what was going on. sweatdrop

My understanding is that he's a pretty forgiving guy.  

[TeaDidikai]

Gho the Girl

TeaDidikai

Damn. That teacher caused you to defile the Host. eek

I don't think Yeshua would hold it against her, seeing as how it wasn't in her intent to do so.

Oh- I'm not worried about Bastemhet, I'm worried about the teacher.  

[Gho the Girl]

TeaDidikai

Bastemhet

TeaDidikai

Damn. That teacher caused you to defile the Host. eek

That might explain why he didn't bother to answer my request for a relationship. I'll need to apologize, then. I hope he can forgive me. I really had no idea what was going on. sweatdrop

My understanding is that he's a pretty forgiving guy.

Especially in a situation where
1) the transgression was due to the ignorance and misleading of another, with no ill intent in the guilty party
2) the party is genuinely sorry.

It's people too prideful to admit error that are kinda in trouble. I say this of course while damning myself. sweatdrop  

[TeaDidikai]

Gho the Girl

I say this of course while damning myself. sweatdrop

Good thing he's forgiving. wink  

[Gho the Girl]

TeaDidikai

Gho the Girl

I say this of course while damning myself. sweatdrop

Good thing he's forgiving. wink

I know he is.

I'm just sorry He's stuck with a follower like me. I screw up so very much. And I'm going to do it again. And again.  

[TeaDidikai]

Gho the Girl

I know he is.

I'm just sorry He's stuck with a follower like me. I screw up so very much. And I'm going to do it again. And again.

Hey Sweets? The whole Self Loathing thing? Where does that fit into Agape?  

[Gho the Girl]

TeaDidikai

Gho the Girl

I know he is.

I'm just sorry He's stuck with a follower like me. I screw up so very much. And I'm going to do it again. And again.

Hey Sweets? The whole Self Loathing thing? Where does that fit into Agape?

It doesn't, but getting home I just got the feeling I've been doing things wrong again.

You know what? You're right, I shall learn how to accept failure and screw ups better. Jesus loves me just the way I am, who am I to contradict?  

[TeaDidikai]

Gho the Girl

TeaDidikai

Gho the Girl

I know he is.

I'm just sorry He's stuck with a follower like me. I screw up so very much. And I'm going to do it again. And again.

Hey Sweets? The whole Self Loathing thing? Where does that fit into Agape?

It doesn't, but getting home I just got the feeling I've been doing things wrong again.

You know what? You're right, I shall learn how to accept failure and screw ups better. Jesus loves me just the way I am, who am I to contradict?

Not only that, but what you do unto the least of his children, you do unto him. Love yourself Sweets.  

[Namikikyo]

As a last resort to finding out some serious answers, my Father brought me to the Preacher who baptized me and a Sunday school teacher for adults at the church I was Baptized in who is my Grandfather.

They both explained to me that the baptism is done in the hopes that the child will grow up and be Confirmed. It is a special hope, a promise to raise that child in a christian background and a way of giving the child a chance to have a relationship with Jesus.

My Grandfather also added that sometimes the most complex thing is actually the simplest, he believes that everything is not as rigid as I was making everything out to be. "God gave us free will, do you really think he would force you into something by proxy? Then there'd be no reason for Confirmation." Then he went on to rant about Rome.. not sure why.

The easiest way they explained it to me was;

It is a gift, a chance/petition to be able to be in a relationship with Jesus/God/Holy Spirit. But just like any gift, we have to accept it, which is what being Confirmed is. It is accepting that gift and confirming that this is what is wanted.

When I also confronted them about the parts that you bolded, Tea, they said it was a hope and a blessing and not a bond like I was "assuming". A hope that I would confirm it at the Confirmation.

They also believe that without Baptism, one can not go to Heaven nor establish a relationship with Jesus. Though, as you get older you have to be Confirmed because Baptism is good as a child, but Confirmation is what you need to do as an Adult if this is what you want.

I've asked every question imaginable about it and this is the information that has been presented to me by the church and it's followers.

Stick a fork in me, I'm done asking people. All they do is get irritated after hours of re-answering the same questions. xD I had one guy throw his hands up in the air and walk away after a while, only to come back and say "You can read the bible and I can read the bible, but come out with two different epiphanies. No two denominations are the same, we interpret things DIFFERENTLY." Maybe not in so little words, but needless to say.. I stopped asking. sweatdrop
...

Personally, I don't know what to believe anymore. I trust everyone who has given me information, yet both sides are contradicting the other.

On the plus side, I'm glad I have so much support from all of you. Though, I'm not sure if I can count shameless advertising as support, but I'll take whatever's handed to me at the moment, Lol.

Gho, Thank you for your offer and your complements. I must say, your pathway thread is very lovely and inspiring. It sparked a conversation with my Father about the Law of Agape. He showed me this little hand sign where two fingers twisted and one bent down, he explained to me what it meant with great pride. I almost began to cry at how beautiful it was to me. Thank you for that moment, Gho. I had almost forgotten how loving Christianity is.

 

[Gho the Girl]

Namikikyo

Gho, Thank you for your offer and your complements. I must say, your pathway thread is very lovely and inspiring. It sparked a conversation with my Father about the Law of Agape. He showed me this little hand sign where two fingers twisted and one bent down, he explained to me what it meant with great pride. I almost began to cry at how beautiful it was to me. Thank you for that moment, Gho. I had almost forgotten how loving Christianity is.

As do I sister. As do I.

Now I don't actually know what hand sign he's referring to, but I'm not all that knowledgeable about such information.

But I'm glad that my ramblings on Agape could touch you deeply.  

[TeaDidikai]

Namikikyo

As a last resort to finding out some serious answers, my Father brought me to the Preacher who baptized me and a Sunday school teacher for adults at the church I was Baptized in who is my Grandfather.

They both explained to me that the baptism is done in the hopes that the child will grow up and be Confirmed. It is a special hope, a promise to raise that child in a christian background and a way of giving the child a chance to have a relationship with Jesus.

They seem like really nice folks- but they're wrong when it comes to their religion. It happens some times.

Basically, their catechism and their canon have a specific position. Their personal opinion goes against that. Perhaps another denomination would be better suited to them- one they agree with and all.

Quote:

"God gave us free will, do you really think he would force you into something by proxy? Then there'd be no reason for Confirmation."

Confirmation is a celebration of maturity within the faith- it notes the maturity that engages the Holy Spirit again- basically, within the CoE and other traditions that come from it, it is a coming of age rite in Faith, it is not considered as fundamental to spiritual life as Baptism is.

The Book of Common Prayer Catechism

Holy Baptism
Q. What is Holy Baptism?
A. Holy Baptism is the sacrament by which God adopts us
as his children and makes us members of Christ's Body,
the Church, and inheritors of the kingdom of God.

Q. What is the outward and visible sign in Baptism?
A. The outward and visible sign in Baptism is water, in
which the person is baptized in the Name of the Father,
and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Q. What is the inward and spiritual grace in Baptism?
A. The inward and spiritual grace in Baptism is union with
Christ in his death and resurrection, birth into God's
family the Church, forgiveness of sins, and new life in
the Holy Spirit.

Q. What is required of us at Baptism?
A. It is required that we renounce Satan, repent of our sins,
and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Q. Why then are infants baptized?
A. Infants are baptized so that they can share citizenship in
the Covenant, membership in Christ, and redemption
by God.

Q. How are the promises for infants made and carried out?
A. Promises are made for them by their parents and
sponsors, who guarantee that the infants will be
brought up within the Church, to know Christ and be
able to follow him.

Compound that with the information that is affirmed in the rite itself.

Quote:

Then he went on to rant about Rome.. not sure why.

Protestant v. Catholic breakdowns. It happens.

Quote:

The easiest way they explained it to me was;

It is a gift, a chance/petition to be able to be in a relationship with Jesus/God/Holy Spirit. But just like any gift, we have to accept it, which is what being Confirmed is. It is accepting that gift and confirming that this is what is wanted.

When I also confronted them about the parts that you bolded, Tea, they said it was a hope and a blessing and not a bond like I was "assuming". A hope that I would confirm it at the Confirmation.

Their tradition disagrees with them.
It happens.
Sometimes people don't want to engage a tradition in it's nature. ~shrugs~

Quote:

They also believe that without Baptism, one can not go to Heaven nor establish a relationship with Jesus. Though, as you get older you have to be Confirmed because Baptism is good as a child, but Confirmation is what you need to do as an Adult if this is what you want.

Again, their tradition disagrees with them.

The Catechism within The Book of Common Prayer

Other Sacramental Rites
Q. What other sacramental rites evolved in the Church
under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
A. Other sacramental rites which evolved in the Church
include confirmation, ordination, holy matrimony,
reconciliation of a penitent, and unction.

Q. How do they differ from the two sacraments of the
Gospel?
A. Although they are means of grace, they are not
necessary for all persons in the same way that Baptism
and the Eucharist are.

Quote:

I've asked every question imaginable about it and this is the information that has been presented to me by the church and it's followers.

Stick a fork in me, I'm done asking people. All they do is get irritated after hours of re-answering the same questions. xD I had one guy throw his hands up in the air and walk away after a while, only to come back and say "You can read the bible and I can read the bible, but come out with two different epiphanies. No two denominations are the same, we interpret things DIFFERENTLY." Maybe not in so little words, but needless to say.. I stopped asking. sweatdrop

That's really too bad. Sorry you had such a rough time.

If you like, I can talk to some of the ministers I know, see if anyone would be willing to do an indepth phone conference.

Quote:

Personally, I don't know what to believe anymore. I trust everyone who has given me information, yet both sides are contradicting the other.

This is common. Especially given the lack of scholarship within Christendom.

Basically, if you want to know what the Church says, look it up in the hard texts. If you want to know the spirit in which your family approaches the tradition, ask them.

Quote:

On the plus side, I'm glad I have so much support from all of you. Though, I'm not sure if I can count shameless advertising as support, but I'll take whatever's handed to me at the moment, Lol.

Gho, Thank you for your offer and your complements. I must say, your pathway thread is very lovely and inspiring. It sparked a conversation with my Father about the Law of Agape. He showed me this little hand sign where two fingers twisted and one bent down, he explained to me what it meant with great pride. I almost began to cry at how beautiful it was to me. Thank you for that moment, Gho. I had almost forgotten how loving Christianity is.

Gho is a Sweetie.