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 Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:25 pm
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maenad nuri We're not overtly racist. But damn, if we don't express our racism constantly and consistently. It's systemic, inherent in the system we've created -- white is privileged, anything else is not. We're not hanging people, but I hear racism every day while I'm working from coworker, customers --everyone. It even comes out of my mouth from time to time, despite my best efforts. It's present in how "Natural Black" hair isn't considered professional, in how Tea has been told that her culture and ethnic group isn't real, in how "Asians are smart!". (Also, it's CLASS NOT RACE, is a classic derail. We exist in multiple modes of privilege and isms. The best way to describe this is in a system called kyriarchy.) I cannot help my privilege. I can only seek the understand it and use it in a way that minimizes harm to others. Guess what's on my To do list this week folks!
Are you arguing that certain minorities are more privilaged than others?
I'm a Scottish Jew who is female. All 3 of those groups have been repressed and faced racism or sexism at one point in their history. Jews in particular, followed by women in the more recent eras. I could go all 1740 and white man's burden to civilize the barbaric Scots, but I don't think that that is needed to mention as that struggle is almost over.
In regards to natural black hair, naturally curly white hair faces the same issue, esp if it is a very curly hairstyle that is "distracting". If anything, African type hair is considered more PC as it's a natural trait of nearly all people of African Ancestry, as opposed to just being a trait of some white people. Most of my "black" friends relax their hair so they can do some rather strange styles that require straight hair. The ones who keep it natural tend to keep their hair in more normal styles in my experiance. Same deal with my hooked nose. I know I can't get a job in customer service due to the fact my nose makes me look : Cheap, Stingy, Mean, angry, and hungry if I'm not smiling constantly, and in this economy, it's hard to get a job and apperance is a perfectly acceptable disqualifier if my job requires a pretty apperance. I'm thankfully not planning a career in such a job. That's not racist. I won't deny I would look more attractive without a hooked nose, by anyone's standards. I look unique with my nose though, and I prefer it. People often deny ethnicities exist, out of ignorance, not out of racism. I didn't know Catalonia viewed itself as a seperate nation till I met a Barcaloan Anarcho-nationalist(She believes anarchy starts with the reconition of Catalonia as a seperate nation, and that only by granting Catalonia it's seperate status, can her nation gain the power to fight facism in the modern world as they attempted to during ww2. A very strange view, but it made sense when she said it.).
Racism is not very prevelant IMO. Ignorance may be, but true hatred is pretty rare. I live in the North Eastern Coast of America, near Boston and NYC, so I may not have the clearest view of the whole country. |
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Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:46 pm
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Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:50 pm
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maenad nuri CuAnnan maenad nuri "Natural Black" hair isn't considered professional Huh? Natural black hair? I'm pretty certain I genuinely don't understand this. Already explained it to you, but in case anyone else doesn't. In very basic terms, it describes the type of hair that many people of color have. Particularly for women, their natural hair isn't "good" and there's an entire industry built up around making their hair more like, well, mine.
Yes.
I know I remember wondering why my sister bought all those weird shampoos that didn't seem to do anything different to her hair, why she straightened it all the time, why she went and got it chemically straightened.
Then there was greasy-, thin-, straight-haired me, going, "But your hair is so gorgeous!"
Ah, childhood. |
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Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:51 pm
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Violet Song jat Shariff Crew
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Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:04 pm
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Orchidsandfractals Are you arguing that certain minorities are more privilaged than others?
Um. No.
In fact, rather the opposite. Privilege isn't something that minorities have.
Actually, I'd say that if your appearance is due to ethnic traits, and those traits are giving others the impression that you aren't trustworthy, merely because they are indicative of a certain ethnicity. Then yes, I'd say that's racist.
Quote: People often deny ethnicities exist, out of ignorance, not out of racism.
And when they continue to do so, such as I've had, and that Tea has had with people denying that her ethnicity exists, that is racism. I do a bit of Rroma education myself, and I've come across that attitude more often these days.
Quote: Racism is not very prevelant IMO. Ignorance may be, but true hatred is pretty rare. I live in the North Eastern Coast of America, near Boston and NYC, so I may not have the clearest view of the whole country.
Racism isn't just hatred. Ignorance is also part and parcel of racism being systemic in our society. |
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Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:23 pm
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:16 am
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maenad nuri I was giving the benefit of the doubt for equating it to lying. I was hoping it would go no further because that is a very stupid area to start treading in. (Stupid, being equating it to lying, not drag/trans/etc itself)
Well hopefully people will stop.
Aino Ailill One black person once professed to prefer it in my hearing. However, I think it was hyperbole in this person's rant against political correctness.
Hyperbole I've seen, actually preferring it? Yeah that's rare.
whiporwill-o it wasn't meant as lying, at least it was not my intention, more like disguising oneself as not to appear as his or her birth gender. as already stated, it was a poor example on my part. my apologies, i meant no offense.
Disguising is, quite frankly, just as bad of a word to use for it. Drag folk are just wearing unexpected clothing for performance. Crossdressers do it for a myriad of reasons (sometimes sexual, sometimes hobby, sometimes amusement and sometimes disguise but very rarely that).
Implying that all instances of it is disguise is a very dangerous view to take because it's easily extended to degendering trans folk. And we're already degendered a s**t ton now.
TeaDidikai Recursive Paradox This argument hedges upon the false assumption that the word Rroma is a political correctness term and not the actual primary endonym of the culture. This is pretty much what set my teeth itching in regards to her "friend". Since being Rroma means participating in the culture and the culture is tied to the language and practices, it's almost impossible to be within the culture and not understand the linguistics involved in how the term is applied to us and it's source within the different dialects found within the culture itself.
Yep. That and quite frankly if her friend participated in the culture in the least bit she'd at least know that her peers didn't want the word used and would specify that instead of doing broad "corrections" of people.
I mean hell, even a mildly well educated outsider like myself can catch the bullshit wading off this girl's claim. |
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:44 am
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Orchidsandfractals Recursive Paradox- I have met several AA POC people who prefer the N word. It's not the most common form I would say, but out of the people I have met that prefer that term, they prefer it to African American. They basically explained it as European American sounds awkward, so if we're to describe our culture, it's the n word culture, as black is not an accurate term for our skin tone, and it is a word used by our people.(I use our and we in this case to indicate the people I have met, their stance).
That's fairly odd. Of course, it isn't a very good analogy for either of us considering that AA/black POC don't have one single culture (but instead a mess of cultures)
Quote: I can think that my peer is Rroma as she has told me she is, but as you doubt here that she is, I will take both yours and TeaDidikai's opinions into consideration.
The reason why I do not consider your peer Rroma is because she shows absolutely no knowledge of the word G~ being a slur that her culture dislikes largely and doesn't (at the very least) warn people not to use it around her other culture mates. Extending further is the linguistic elements of Rroma (an endonym) and G~ (an intensely racist exonym that implies that Rroma are Egyptian). To feel that G~ applies better is to fundamentally lack comprehension of the word structures.
I can see some making the argument that AA isn't very applicable (cuz not all black POC folk are from African descent) and that the word black is fairly inapplicable because very few people have that dark of a skin tone. You'll notice that those words are also exonyms though, applied by white culture to black folk.
Rroma is an endonym. That means that the culture itself made it, chose it and uses it. It's meaning is the best suited to the culture.
Quote: I have seen racism when it appears in my experiance. I am a Scottish Jew, a female. I have seen sexism, I have seen anti semitism, and I have seen anti Latino racism in person. I am not Latino. Your logic that I have no reason to see racism as I am privileged is inaccurate.
Your analogy is piss poor. Jews see antisemitism. Women see sexism. Having witnessed one fairly visible racially motivated hatred doesn't mean you would automatically see less visible ones.
How many trans women have you seen degendered and recognized it? How many people with disabilities have you seen demeaned and recognized it? It's probably happened near you and you don't have a clue.
Quite frankly, you are not a magical viewscope. And pretending that because you've personally seen some racist actions means you would see all of them is the most damn illogical thing I have ever heard. The logic does not follow.
And quite frankly you are privileged.
You can use the bathrooms you need to because your gender is not constantly challenged by everyone you meet. You can enter any building that is public because your legs function and it doesn't matter to you if they have ramps. You are not at the intensely high risk I am for being murdered (trans women murder rates are intensely high) because you are not regarded as a "trap" for straight men to turn them gay. You don't see G~ as a slur because you haven't been beaten while people called you it. You've not had your hair challenged as not valid simply because it's more curly and less straight. You aren't intensely wounded every time someone says, "she looks like a man" because you have the base level of acceptance for your gender as a woman. You aren't wounded every time you hear someone say "invalid" or "cripple" in a joke because you are able-bodied/minded.
You are steeped in privilege. It doesn't matter if you have other zones of oppression. There are areas in which you are privileged and where you are oppressed. Neither erases the other. This concept is a fairly simple one called intersectionality. Intersecting lines of privilege and intersecting lines of oppression. Because it isn't as simple as a binary of oppressor and oppressed.
Quote: I may not see all the instances, or have the viewpoint of an insider of a culture as to racism for one's culture, but I have seen racism as existing.
So you didn't exactly read what I wrote either. Great. Let's try this again, this time with you actually paying attention:
You can be aware of racism but that doesn't mean you are aware of every racist act that goes on. Your privilege acts against you, robs you of perspective, you may be aware but that's as an outsider at best, only seeing some of the things gone wrong if any. To dismiss a racist experience as unlikely simply because you didn't see it is quite frankly the most godawfully stupid thing anyone could say.
Because really you're one goddamn person. How in the hell does it make sense to claim, "If I didn't see it, it didn't happen!" We don't even know if you're living in an area with a pocket of Rroma people making a home there. You aren't a magical ******** seer. Stop saying stupid s**t and accept a little realism into your life.
Quote: In regards to drag queens and kings. I don't think it was meant as offensive as drag is an art form.
It was offensive because you all were implying it was lying, not art.
Quote: Trans is a gender choice(Not that it's exactly a choice, but a choice as in you can either deny a part of yourself or not).
Don't use that sentence. Ever again.
I don't give a ******** if you're using it to denote that some of us can choose to hurt ourselves and deny a part of ourselves. The best way to say that is trans folk can choose to handle their s**t or not. Not "trans is a gender choice".
Right there, your cis privilege got in the way and made you say stupid wounding cissexist s**t.
Quote: I haven't seen everyone naked, that is correct, but my statement was basically saying it's a lot easier to tell if someone is a drag queen or king if you've seen them in person, as opposed to an avatar and typing style on the internet.
I would call bullshit on this. Some drag queens and kings look amazing.
Quote: My cousin is a drag queen for the lulz at times, and he's pretty clearly male, even with makeup and a dress on. One of my dear friend's fathers is a drag king(Or he was one in the 1960s I should say.), and looking at the photos of him, there is no way anyone could mistake him for a woman. Same deal with all the people I know to be drag queens or kings IRL.
Because clearly your very limited experiences represent the norm for the universe because you are the magical oracle of all sorts of s**t and see all.
...wait.
Quote: That being said, in high school, my next door neighbor honestly thought I had a 25 inch long p***s because I made a joke with friends about it, and I didn't shave my armpits(for the record, I am a cisgendered woman who looks like a woman.).
Cuz trans women aren't actually women, right? We only look like women? You better step the ******** off right now because you are saying some seriously cissexist s**t.
Oh look, privilege too. You're proving me right continuously.
Quote: So, I could be quite wrong about mistakening people as drag queens or kings. Though, I hang out with quite a few men who wear makeup, so I may just have better than average genderdar.
There's men who wear makeup for no other reason than they want to.
Quote: I am not talking about people who have been taking hormones, and who have had further sugery to look more male or female. I am talking about people who do drag as an art form.
No, but when you do talk about folks who do transition you sure put your ******** foot in your cis privileged mouth a lot.
Quote: A vivid acting performance may pass for reality for a short amount of time, but it is not substained for a long amount of time. Drag is the acting of different genders. Transgender is feeling you are a different gender you are born in. One is a lie(an act), and the other is a different state of mind.
An act is not a lie. There is no fooling one to believe something. Drag queens express the fact that they are drag queens. It's a part of the performance.
Quote: However, I may be totally off on what drag is. As far as I know, it's meant for acting basically. Paintings are not reality, no matter how good they are. They are meant as a reflection of reality, not as reality itself.
So paintings are... lies? Sense. You make none. |
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:45 am
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:28 am
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:13 pm
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:42 pm
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:17 pm
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:50 pm
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maenad nuri Fiddlers Green maenad nuri (Also, it's CLASS NOT RACE, is a classic derail. We exist in multiple modes of privilege and isms. The best way to describe this is in a system called kyriarchy.) Are establishing that there is no class based privilege?  Nope. There's plenty of class-based privilege. Tons of it. And it's important. It's just that in dicussions about race, saying that "it's not race but class" or what was said here, that "Race isn't a problem anymore, Classism is the problem" is a derail. A massive one.
I agree with you, but we shouldn't ignore classism in the discussion of priveledge. Class is quickly becoming a more reliable signifier in issues such as health and sustained stress levels than race in the States. They're frequently both symptoms of a common systemic cause.
...what tangent? |
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:10 pm
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demisara maenad nuri Fiddlers Green maenad nuri (Also, it's CLASS NOT RACE, is a classic derail. We exist in multiple modes of privilege and isms. The best way to describe this is in a system called kyriarchy.) Are establishing that there is no class based privilege? Nope. There's plenty of class-based privilege. Tons of it. And it's important. It's just that in dicussions about race, saying that "it's not race but class" or what was said here, that "Race isn't a problem anymore, Classism is the problem" is a derail. A massive one. I agree with you, but we shouldn't ignore classism in the discussion of priveledge. Class is quickly becoming a more reliable signifier in issues such as health and sustained stress levels than race in the States. They're frequently both symptoms of a common systemic cause. ...what tangent?
In a general discussion of privilege, no we shouldn't ignore classism. In a very specific discussion of racism, yes we should. It isn't relevant to racism beyond a parallel to be drawn like say I did with cissexism (i.e. here's an example of privilege making one unable to spot this, with classism) |
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