Tarot?

[rmcdra]

Nines19

TeaDidikai

Nines19

Well, if we apply that concept to other things, it doesn't work out so neatly. Books are just lots of pieces of paper with ink on them, but they can tell us many things - from our favorite story to the history of a nation.

The books do no such thing. wink

The reader tells themselves that much by interpreting what is in front of them. In the case of the books- letters.

I'll use Red as an example. In a post where I responded to Red's false claims about the Wica, I addressed what Wica is, and from that she told herself I was 1) A member of the Cult 2) Obsessed with sex 3) A slut and 4) Had desires to not be seen as such.

Clearly, since I didn't provide misinformation, and yet, her conclusions are everything but fact- this information came not from her computer, not from me, not from objective reality, but from herself.

So what you (and rmcdra?) are saying is that the cards don't tell, but provide a basis for what the reader can interpret from them?

In my understanding so far, yes.  

[redtearsblackwings]

Ultramarine Violet

redtearsblackwings

Ultramarine Violet

Collowrath

redtearsblackwings

Can someone tell me, does Tarot or Orical give you a deeper understanding of the reading?

It's already been explained to you: Tarot is a specific kind of cards; anything else that has a similar purpose but different design and suits, etc, are oracle cards.

Neither of them tell you more or less than the other. Whether or not you have a "deeper understanding" of any reading, tarot or not, is up to how good you are.

Collowrath: It might be fair to note that a deeper understanding of card readings, whether Tarot or Oracle, can also be attained/enriched by study. In terms of Tarot, I find correspondences to be a useful place to start - z.B. looking up herbal correspondences to the Major Arcana and relating the herbal energies/uses to the card can enhance what one's already learned from study exclusively within data and definitions provided from a solely Tarot-based perspective.

Interrelating the data from seemingly opposed (or at least vastly different) Major Arcana, and comparing herbal, planetary, elemental, and numerological correspondences thereof, could be an interesting thought excercise, now it occurs to me. heart

As for the original topic - I was actually given a rather interesting (though somewhat biased) oracle deck called "Healing with the Faeries". I haven't gotten much good out of it, except for pretty generic good advice - use positive affirmation to change your behavior for the wiser, cleaner, and healthier. But it's very possible that I'm being inhibited by the fact that I'm somewhat suspicious of any object or set of beliefs that portray faeries in only a positive light. From what I understand, aren't they cast as something of troublemakers, in common folklore? Or did that just rise as a rather confused provincial attitude with the spread of Christianity?

Thank you, even though I know this wasn't directed at me it's cleared alot up for me.

Er, glad I could help. Please be aware, though, that what I've said is a very limited means, and not to be mistaken for an end. Knowing something will work or help is different from initiating it, and the learning process is ongoing - I'm finding that out to my increasing exhaustion. sweatdrop The more you know, the more you know that you don't know. Or, if you prefer, "The greater the island of knowledge, the wider the shore of mystery."

Yes I understand what you mean.  

[rmcdra]

@Nines19
Here's a question to provide perspective on my stance. Who is the diviner? The person reading the cards or the cards themselves? Where does the power of divination lay? Within the cards or within the person using them?  

[redtearsblackwings]

rmcdra

@Nines19
Here's a question to provide perspective on my stance. Who is the diviner? The person reading the cards or the cards themselves? Where does the power of divination lay? Within the cards or within the person using them?

Sorry to butt in, but that is a really good question.
I've never thought I Tarot like that.  

[Nines19]

rmcdra

@Nines19
Here's a question to provide perspective on my stance. Who is the diviner? The person reading the cards or the cards themselves? Where does the power of divination lay? Within the cards or within the person using them?

That depends on what we mean by "divination". The definition in my head (that may conflict with objective reality, of course) is that divination is the interpretation of signs and symbols in order to predict the future. Keyword: Interpretation. The cards don't interpret themselves; the reader does.
So I would say "the reader" would be my answer(s).

redtearsblackwings

Sorry to butt in

These threads are here for anybody in the guild to post in. You're free to "butt in" whenever you like (provided you don't do something that gets on Nuri's nerves). No need to be sorry. 3nodding  

[redtearsblackwings]

Nines19

rmcdra

@Nines19
Here's a question to provide perspective on my stance. Who is the diviner? The person reading the cards or the cards themselves? Where does the power of divination lay? Within the cards or within the person using them?

That depends on what we mean by "divination". The definition in my head (that may conflict with objective reality, of course) is that divination is the interpretation of signs and symbols in order to predict the future. Keyword: Interpretation. The cards don't interpret themselves; the reader does.
So I would say "the reader" would be my answer(s).

redtearsblackwings

Sorry to butt in

These threads are here for anybody in the guild to post in. You're free to "butt in" whenever you like (provided you don't do something that gets on Nuri's nerves). No need to be sorry. 3nodding

But what about the way that the cards are layed out? I know that there can be some very simple layouts but there can also be eleberate ones. They make the postioning of the cards different there for the meaning different.
I think its a bit of a mix-match of both cards and reader are 'divine' for lack of a better word.

Ah good to know. This disucssion is very intersting.  

[Nines19]

redtearsblackwings

But what about the way that the cards are layed out? I know that there can be some very simple layouts but there can also be eleberate ones. They make the postioning of the cards different there for the meaning different.
I think its a bit of a mix-match of both cards and reader are 'divine' for lack of a better word.

But who lays out the cards? The meanings that different positions have are there only because we give them meaning - which can probably also be said of the cards themselves and their symbols.

(Side note: I tend to semi-randomly "make up" spreads and lay the cards however I feel like. Is that a "bad" thing?)  

[CuAnnan]

Nines19

(Side note: I tend to semi-randomly "make up" spreads and lay the cards however I feel like. Is that a "bad" thing?)

I often do that.  

[Ultramarine Violet]

Nines19

(Side note: I tend to semi-randomly "make up" spreads and lay the cards however I feel like. Is that a "bad" thing?)

That's actually pretty neat. I wonder, do you ever find (after the fact) that the placement of the cards had any symbolic effect on the final interperetation of the spread?

... Is it sad that I get... well, really excited about Tarot and the surrounding theory? sweatdrop  

[Nines19]

Ultramarine Violet

Nines19

(Side note: I tend to semi-randomly "make up" spreads and lay the cards however I feel like. Is that a "bad" thing?)

That's actually pretty neat. I wonder, do you ever find (after the fact) that the placement of the cards had any symbolic effect on the final interperetation of the spread?

... Is it sad that I get... well, really excited about Tarot and the surrounding theory? sweatdrop

Usually what I do is place them face down and as I'm doing so, say/think, "This card is about X, this one is about Y, and this one is about how they relate to Z," and such. The placement itself is usually dependent on how each of them relate to facets of what I'm asking. In the example I gave, I might put the card about X down, put the card about Y down below it, and put the card about Z to the right in between them.
Something like:
__
|X| --
__ |Z|
|Y| --
--  

[Ultramarine Violet]

Nines19

Ultramarine Violet

Nines19

(Side note: I tend to semi-randomly "make up" spreads and lay the cards however I feel like. Is that a "bad" thing?)

That's actually pretty neat. I wonder, do you ever find (after the fact) that the placement of the cards had any symbolic effect on the final interperetation of the spread?

... Is it sad that I get... well, really excited about Tarot and the surrounding theory? sweatdrop

Usually what I do is place them face down and as I'm doing so, say/think, "This card is about X, this one is about Y, and this one is about how they relate to Z," and such. The placement itself is usually dependent on how each of them relate to facets of what I'm asking. In the example I gave, I might put the card about X down, put the card about Y down below it, and put the card about Z to the right in between them.
Something like:
__
|X| --
__ |Z|
|Y| --
--

Okay! So it's not so much the form of the spread that's semi-random, but the flow and purpose, yeah?

Thanks for clearing that up!  

[TeaDidikai]

redtearsblackwings

Well I just thought it sounded nicer then saying that I dont like the way you answer my questions so I don't want you answering this one.

Since it's an open forum, I'm going to answer as I see fit. Your choice to blind yourself to answers is squarely on you.

Ultramarine Violet

Collowrath: It might be fair to note that a deeper understanding of card readings, whether Tarot or Oracle, can also be attained/enriched by study. In terms of Tarot, I find correspondences to be a useful place to start - z.B. looking up herbal correspondences to the Major Arcana and relating the herbal energies/uses to the card can enhance what one's already learned from study exclusively within data and definitions provided from a solely Tarot-based perspective.

Interrelating the data from seemingly opposed (or at least vastly different) Major Arcana, and comparing herbal, planetary, elemental, and numerological correspondences thereof, could be an interesting thought excercise, now it occurs to me. heart

A note on this:
Yes, it can be helpful for certain kinds of readers.
It can also end up hampering other kinds of readers, since how one approaches their practice of divination may differ.

I'm going to present what is essentially a scale as a dichotomy for the sake of explanation.

Readers are either "Seerers" or "Listeners". They either "see" the pattern in the tools before them and formulate the answers based on that or they "listen" for small whispers that come through in little details that resonate in a small portion of the tool at hand.

That understanding of correspondences works well for "Seerers" but it will harm a "Listener" who will have a harder time picking out that small whisper amongst the din of internal chatter about X being akin to Y.

Like I said, this is a simplification and I think any reader worth their salt will incorporate both as the situation warrants.

Quote:

As for the original topic - I was actually given a rather interesting (though somewhat biased) oracle deck called "Healing with the Faeries". I haven't gotten much good out of it, except for pretty generic good advice - use positive affirmation to change your behavior for the wiser, cleaner, and healthier. But it's very possible that I'm being inhibited by the fact that I'm somewhat suspicious of any object or set of beliefs that portray faeries in only a positive light. From what I understand, aren't they cast as something of troublemakers, in common folklore? Or did that just rise as a rather confused provincial attitude with the spread of Christianity?

I have issues with the bastardizations Doreen Virtue issues in the name of spiritual entities.

As I recall, she calls Faeries a form of Angels. eek

redtearsblackwings

I've never thought I Tarot like that.

It's pretty much what I had said before. Not quite so rhetorical, but it's the same message.

Nines19

But who lays out the cards? The meanings that different positions have are there only because we give them meaning - which can probably also be said of the cards themselves and their symbols.

This is very much the position of the "Seerer" in my earlier example. The validity of which I would challenge if it were presented as exclusive truth.

CuAnnan

Nines19

(Side note: I tend to semi-randomly "make up" spreads and lay the cards however I feel like. Is that a "bad" thing?)

I often do that.

Likewise. I have a "standard" that I use when reading for folks who want readings though.
I blame cultural translations.  

[TeaDidikai]

Ultramarine Violet

That's actually pretty neat. I wonder, do you ever find (after the fact) that the placement of the cards had any symbolic effect on the final interperetation of the spread?

There are family spreads that require placement for context.

Quote:

... Is it sad that I get... well, really excited about Tarot and the surrounding theory? sweatdrop

I don't see why it would be.

Nines19

Usually what I do is place them face down and as I'm doing so, say/think, "This card is about X, this one is about Y, and this one is about how they relate to Z," and such. The placement itself is usually dependent on how each of them relate to facets of what I'm asking. In the example I gave, I might put the card about X down, put the card about Y down below it, and put the card about Z to the right in between them.
Something like:
__
|X| --
__ |Z|
|Y| --
--

Interesting.  

[Ultramarine Violet]

TeaDidikai

Ultramarine Violet

Collowrath: It might be fair to note that a deeper understanding of card readings, whether Tarot or Oracle, can also be attained/enriched by study. In terms of Tarot, I find correspondences to be a useful place to start - z.B. looking up herbal correspondences to the Major Arcana and relating the herbal energies/uses to the card can enhance what one's already learned from study exclusively within data and definitions provided from a solely Tarot-based perspective.

Interrelating the data from seemingly opposed (or at least vastly different) Major Arcana, and comparing herbal, planetary, elemental, and numerological correspondences thereof, could be an interesting thought excercise, now it occurs to me. heart

A note on this:
Yes, it can be helpful for certain kinds of readers.
It can also end up hampering other kinds of readers, since how one approaches their practice of divination may differ.

I'm going to present what is essentially a scale as a dichotomy for the sake of explanation.

Readers are either "Seerers" or "Listeners". They either "see" the pattern in the tools before them and formulate the answers based on that or they "listen" for small whispers that come through in little details that resonate in a small portion of the tool at hand.

That understanding of correspondences works well for "Seerers" but it will harm a "Listener" who will have a harder time picking out that small whisper amongst the din of internal chatter about X being akin to Y.

Like I said, this is a simplification and I think any reader worth their salt will incorporate both as the situation warrants.

eek Let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly - what you're saying is, that cross-referencing and building associations through media other than the cards themselves has potential to interfere with what sounds like an almost instinctive reaction to the cards?

(Not challenging - paraphrasing to confirm understanding.)

I'm guessing that since you referred to the 'instinctive' types as the Listeners, that the reaction is not to imagery, but to something more internal, yes?

Quote:

As for the original topic - I was actually given a rather interesting (though somewhat biased) oracle deck called "Healing with the Faeries". I haven't gotten much good out of it, except for pretty generic good advice - use positive affirmation to change your behavior for the wiser, cleaner, and healthier. But it's very possible that I'm being inhibited by the fact that I'm somewhat suspicious of any object or set of beliefs that portray faeries in only a positive light. From what I understand, aren't they cast as something of troublemakers, in common folklore? Or did that just rise as a rather confused provincial attitude with the spread of Christianity?

I have issues with the bastardizations Doreen Virtue issues in the name of spiritual entities.

As I recall, she calls Faeries a form of Angels. eek

Really? Ick. I must have skimmed over that in the little booklet - it spent so much time pitching her Angels oracle deck that I could very well have missed a reference to that.  

[Collowrath]

Ultramarine Violet

I'm guessing that since you referred to the 'instinctive' types as the Listeners, that the reaction is not to imagery, but to something more internal, yes?

At least in my case, there is a degree of animism involved, and there's a distinct possibility that looking through all this information would cause me to overlook what the card is actually "saying" to me. I would say, in my case, that the associations and established meanings, etc, would provide a context or a lens through which to interpret what it's actively trying to get across.

I guess you could say it's similar to any conversation with a person; knowing their background, education, what-have-you, is useful in understanding the subtext or context of their words (maybe helping to flesh out what is being said).

I may have completely missed the mark though.