Telling Your Loved Ones

[aoijea23487]

i almost converted to Catholicism by way of RCIA. since i've never been baptized, confirmed, etc. though YHVH did invite himself to the first pagan ritual i held and, long story short, got pissed off and ruined it.

my family never went to church. i grew up in an atheistic household; "God" was never discussed and any worship was completely absent, just like if God simply did not exist.

i was given the explicit freedom to follow whichever religion i wanted, yet when i chose a pagan spirituality people started freaking out.

my brother all of a sudden identifies as Methodist, but as he's never even been baptized and acts as though he's never heard of Jesus or his teachings, i don't consider him a true Christian. he disowned me [as far as siblings can be disowned] because i was a 'radical' and was involved in things that were not mainstream. according to him, if it's not mainstream, it's automatically evil/wrong/sick. so that's why he's a conservative protestant Christian--to fit in. i've drilled him on his faith and he does not even understand the basic mainstream Christian concept that Jesus is God. he has very little understanding of his faith, and he thinks i'm Wiccan so obviously he doesn't understand mine. nonetheless he continues to try to make my life miserable. he told me that if i ever needed help that i go elsewhere because he wouldn't give it to me until i "came back from the dark side," and that even if he did invite me into his house he "could never look me in the eye and call me his sister."

my crimes? i'm vegan, pagan, a feminist, and not a Republican.
that's it. he disowned me for my socio-political and spiritual views. not even for my practices, just my views. he said that he knows who i am because of the books on my bookshelf. ...yeah, i know.

it's so shocking to me that someone could be so cruel without even asking me what it is i specifically believe. he thinks i'm Wiccan for goodness' sake! every time he says it i have to correct him! ugh, willful ignorance is so revolting! plus, he thinks that homosexuals and transexuals are disgusting freaks that are better off dead or excluded from society. absofreakinglutely closed-minded, much? i can't believe that college-educated people are still living in the freaking box.

[what's ironic is that my brother's arguments against anything i say is that he has a college degree in political science and therefore understands exactly how the world works, and because i don't have a college degree, i know absolutely nothing about the world]

if my dad were still alive, i have zero doubt that he'd be the same way as my brother. my dad said that the best thing my gay cousin's parents could have done was leave him on someone else's doorstep.

my mother thinks i'm weird, but doesn't really care, not even enough to ask what i believe. same with my friends. extended family most likely has no idea, and for now i have no desire to tell them. it'll come out sooner or later because i'm going to college about 30 minutes away from two of my adult cousins and their families. luckily they're far more liberal-minded and when i DO tell them i'm sure it will not be such a big deal.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Your brother is a complete moron and reminds me of a massively more screwed up stupid version of my brother.  

[TeaDidikai]

Illiezeulette

nonetheless he continues to persecute me

Really? Has he tried to kill you? Perhaps he beat you? Maybe he threw stones at you to chase you from your parent's home?


Maybe it's more subtle. Has he called your employer or school and told them that you're engaging in ritualistic sex and killing animals for Satan?

Quote:

it's so shocking to me that someone could be so cruel without even asking me what it is i specifically believe. he thinks i'm Wiccan for goodness' sake! every time he says it i have to correct him! ugh, willful ignorance is so revolting! plus, he thinks that homosexuals and transexuals are disgusting freaks that are better off dead or excluded from society. absofreakinglutely closed-minded, much? i can't believe that college-educated people are still living in the freaking box.

Sounds a bit like my little brother actually.

Quote:

[what's ironic is that my brother's arguments against anything i say is that he has a college degree in political science and therefore understands exactly how the world works, and because i don't have a college degree, i know absolutely nothing about the world]

Did you point out this is an appeal to authority and that if his education was so complete, he would have taken formal logic and have known his justification is fallacious?  

[Ashley the Bee]

TeaDidikai

Illiezeulette

nonetheless he continues to persecute me

Really? Has he tried to kill you? Perhaps he beat you? Maybe he threw stones at you to chase you from your parent's home?


Maybe it's more subtle. Has he called your employer or school and told them that you're engaging in ritualistic sex and killing animals for Satan?

So, Merriam-Webster says that "to persecute" means, " to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict ; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief" or " to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities)".

Both of these definitions fit the description provided, at least as far as intent.

Being willfully ignorant of the actual practices of his sister, but still having the desire to castigate her for them, seems as though he is saying these things specifically to cause her to feel emotional distress and suffer.

Perhaps he is truly only thinking about her bests interests, in his mind, and is only really doing it to get her to return to YHWH. Still, the fact that he is causing emotional harm to so, means it still falls under the definition of "persecute".

TeaDidikai

Quote:

[what's ironic is that my brother's arguments against anything i say is that he has a college degree in political science and therefore understands exactly how the world works, and because i don't have a college degree, i know absolutely nothing about the world]

Did you point out this is an appeal to authority and that if his education was so complete, he would have taken formal logic and have known his justification is fallacious?

*snicker*

I'm certain that this would cause him to immediately reconsider his world view and sit down for a long conversation with her so that he would better understand what she is doing. lol  

[saint dreya]

when i first came out as Pagan, my mother was right to question. my intentions were not for the religion, but for the shock value.

i've since grown and my mother, and grandmother, have become quite impressed with how my religion is expressed. both have attended rituals with me at my grove, my grandmother seeing a High Day i was a celebrant in. regularly, i will have discussions about Christianity with my grandmother and general spirituality with my mother. both are very accepting and encouraging about my faith and path.

my uncle, i don't think he knows what to do with me. when i was grieving for my friend's babies, he counseled me with a Christian theology as support (literally, they are waiting in Heaven and are in a better place, no more pain, and we will see them after death). i love my uncle dearly and see his intent and don't take offense. i don't think he can wrap his head around my religious beliefs. additionally, i feel uncomfortable talking about my path around his children as they are incredibly impressionable and it is not my part to "teach" them of a new religion. that is his and his wife's responsibility.

my aunt and her family. i don't think they know and don't think they care in the slightest. a couple of my cousins might show some curiousity, but nothing intense that might last beyond a 2 minute conversation. mostly, they've only ever asked about my tattoo.

my other uncle was very supportive in the beginning, even when my intentions weren't quite so honest. he encouraged the searching, which i think in the long run helped.

i'm very happy with where i am in my family, religiously speaking. they have not rebuked me, and haven't even attempted to "steer" me either. they have let me take my own journey and find out where i stand and they are there when i come back. pretty typical for much of my life.  

[TeaDidikai]

Ashley the Bee

So, Merriam-Webster says that "to persecute" means, " to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict ; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief"

Problem right there, the intent is to draw back to health, not injure, grieve or afflict.

Quote:

or " to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities)".

The day I acknowledge annoyance as an actual form of persecution is the day my Baba is going to rise from her grave and slap me.

By all means then though- parents persecute their children by repeatedly telling them to go to bed...

Quote:

Still, the fact that he is causing emotional harm to so, means it still falls under the definition of "persecute".

" in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict "

The annoyance is a byproduct (one she could actually opt out of if she so decided) not a design.  

[Collowrath]

TeaDidikai

The day I acknowledge annoyance as an actual form of persecution is the day my Baba is going to rise from her grave and slap me.

This.

I'm pretty sensitive to this - my family fled our home country to escape ethnic cleansing and were then subject to 19th Century American racism. This has left a huge mark on the family - our name is now an Anglo one so we could have jobs, there are a lot of us who hate or resent our heritage because they've been taught Slavs are stupid or less than human.

Illiezeulette, I understand the situation. There are elements in my family that are very conservative protestants. Some of them refuse to have anything to do with us, others are very vocal toward certain individuals in the rest of the family. I have an uncle who wishes I wasn't born because he hates that a f** shares his name. In short, you're going to be fine. Just be... private. Provide no opportunity for him to be this way to you, and hopefully he'll realize what a jerk he's acting like.

If it's any consolation, my PoliSci professors regularly joke about PoliSci being a joke field in and of itself. Apparently, "created by the economists so they'd have someone to make fun of too."  

[aoijea23487]

Ashley the Bee

So, Merriam-Webster says that "to persecute" means, " to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict ; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief" or " to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities)".

Both of these definitions fit the description provided, at least as far as intent.

Being willfully ignorant of the actual practices of his sister, but still having the desire to castigate her for them, seems as though he is saying these things specifically to cause her to feel emotional distress and suffer.

Perhaps he is truly only thinking about her bests interests, in his mind, and is only really doing it to get her to return to YHWH. Still, the fact that he is causing emotional harm to so, means it still falls under the definition of "persecute".

actually, he DID used to hit me, but just when we were younger and he was having anger management issues and hit me just because he could.

my brother only wants me to "return to YHVH" because "normal" people are Christians and right now i'm a "freak." he did physically hurt me once within the past year, but it wasn't a fist but more of a really painful arm-grab. he said that he was "trying to teach me about consequences" [i told him to STFU moments before in response to when he told me to STFU] i said if he tried it again, i'd call the cops. all this took place in the middle of some extremely heated argument over me and my "lifestyle choices."

however, since it was out of retribution and not out of correcting my "freakishness," according to Tea's argument about what is and is not persecution, that instance was not technically spiritual persecution. however, the emotional abuse is by no means an "annoyance." it is ABUSE, and on numerous occasions he goes out of his way to break me down all the way to violent sobbing. i'd say that's some "designing to injure" going on there.

i didn't mean persecution like fleeing-the-country burn-at-the-stake persecution. i have to agree; poor word choice on my part... too exaggerated. sorry.

Ashley the Bee

*snicker*

I'm certain that this would cause him to immediately reconsider his world view and sit down for a long conversation with her so that he would better understand what she is doing. lol

i did inquire about my brother's education, and the only logic class he took was mathematics-oriented. i can't remember what it's called, but he said he didn't learn about logical fallacies. no wonder... whenever i point one out he never reacts the way i expect.

i engaged him in friendly debate today about YHVH. apparently he thought that the angel Gabriel impregnated Mary, and he still cannot grasp that Jesus is God and people can be divine and human at the same time. good news is that in the course of our discussion he admitted that he doesn't understand much about Christianity and that he is a "newbie." which only further disappoints me because it's proven to me that he is only calling himself Christian because he wants to fit in. because a true Republican is a white middle/upper-class Protestant, right? -sigh-

little by little our relationship is becoming far more civil than it once was. also, he's leaving permanently in two weeks to go after a job in D.C. and i'm leaving for college in two months, so it's likely the only times i'll ever have to put up with him are holidays. [:

anyway, back on topic...
yeah, so i've had mixed experiences "coming out" to my family. i'd just say to keep it on the DL until you are certain as to how they'll react.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

This probably sounds odd, but if your brother is treating you this way now, perhaps it is for the better that he's cut himself off? Hopefully in the future he'll wise up and things will be different, but for now...you don't deserve to be treated like that.
Of course, I don't know how close you are to your family, so maybe the suggestion of just letting him go is totally bizarre.  

[aoijea23487]

Violet Song jat Shariff

This probably sounds odd, but if your brother is treating you this way now, perhaps it is for the better that he's cut himself off? Hopefully in the future he'll wise up and things will be different, but for now...you don't deserve to be treated like that.
Of course, I don't know how close you are to your family, so maybe the suggestion of just letting him go is totally bizarre.

to my knowledge, neither of us has any intention of keeping in touch once he moves out.

ehhh i didn't mean to turn this into a combo thread-jack wangstfest.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Illiezeulette

Violet Song jat Shariff

This probably sounds odd, but if your brother is treating you this way now, perhaps it is for the better that he's cut himself off? Hopefully in the future he'll wise up and things will be different, but for now...you don't deserve to be treated like that.
Of course, I don't know how close you are to your family, so maybe the suggestion of just letting him go is totally bizarre.

to my knowledge, neither of us has any intention of keeping in touch once he moves out.

ehhh i didn't mean to turn this into a combo thread-jack wangstfest.

-nod-

And you're okay ^^. If it helps to talk about it or get it off your shoulders then no worries.  

[aoijea23487]

Violet Song jat Shariff

Illiezeulette

Violet Song jat Shariff

This probably sounds odd, but if your brother is treating you this way now, perhaps it is for the better that he's cut himself off? Hopefully in the future he'll wise up and things will be different, but for now...you don't deserve to be treated like that.
Of course, I don't know how close you are to your family, so maybe the suggestion of just letting him go is totally bizarre.

to my knowledge, neither of us has any intention of keeping in touch once he moves out.

ehhh i didn't mean to turn this into a combo thread-jack wangstfest.

-nod-

And you're okay ^^. If it helps to talk about it or get it off your shoulders then no worries.

eh, my post had more than just a dash of self-pity and whine. that's def my bad. i promise to buck up.

also, i think i'm really just surprised at how big of a deal my lifestyle has become. i did not expect this at all. it's moved past the suckage stage into "civil tolerance" mode, which is better by far, and i've learned a lot from the whole experience about my family and me. so in a way i'm quite glad this happened.  

[Recursive Paradox]

I think what you're describing fits more into the realm of emotional abuse than persecution. They're both very negative but different categories of bad treatment and it's important to properly label what you're experiencing as they often have different solutions.  

[Deoridhe]

PhantomPhoenix0

Violet Song jat Shariff

I had a friend on another forum suggest taking the issue to Tyr since he's the fairest judge of all the gods. But I take it that that's not quite the best idea if he'd never accept an oath-breaker.

But isn't Tyr an oathbreaker too? wink

Anyway, the fifteenth stanza of Grimnismal attributes Forseti as being the judge, not Tyr. Infact, the Gylfaginning even states that Tyr is not considered to be a judge.

I've always liked the flavor Tyr has of consequences and the hardline of oaths. Forseti, in my experience, is more about reconciliation and resolution. Tyr more about drawing lines and taking consequences. For what it's worth.  

[TeaDidikai]

Deoridhe

I've always liked the flavor Tyr has of consequences and the hardline of oaths. Forseti, in my experience, is more about reconciliation and resolution. Tyr more about drawing lines and taking consequences. For what it's worth.

My take on it as well.

But then, my understanding of oaths and honor in Norse Paganism tends to fall along the lines of keeping oaths doesn't make you a good person, knowing how to keep oaths and how to break them does.