Suicide

[Priestley]

Lazarus The Resurected

zz1000zz

Lazarus The Resurected

zz1000zz

As for the issue of cowardnice, it is cowardly to live only for someone else's desires. Doing so gives up any sense of self you could have, rendering you nothing more than a subservient extension of those you cling to.

the irony of that statement in a christian guild does not escape me,

There is no irony, not even via the bastardized definition of irony people love to use. Nobody should live only for God. God will accept them whether they are alive or dead, so he would be a terrible excuse for not dying.

Then again, it is hardly surprising you would immediately jump to a negative interpretation of what I said, considering the absurdity of your signature.

Christian v. Satanist. i believe round one goes to you. but just for the record what is so absurd abotu my signature it is a brief summation, yes but it's logic is at least sound.

Take the signature issue to PMs, please.  

[zz1000zz]

Lazarus The Resurected

Christian v. Satanist. i believe round one goes to you. but just for the record what is so absurd abotu my signature it is a brief summation, yes but it's logic is at least sound.

First, I am relatively certain I have not labeled myself a Christian. It is largely immaterial, but you should try to avoid labeling people.

Second, your signature is just a flowery version of the "problem of evil." It is commonly written:

Quote:

If a perfectly good god exists, then there is no evil in the world.
There is evil in the world.
Therefore, a perfectly good god does not exist.

The first statement makes an assumption. This assumption is incorrect, therefore the entire approach is wrong. Indeed, the trappings of a "proof" exist only to hide the incorrectness of the argument. Not only is the "logic" unsound, it is dishonest.

I find it interesting you label yourself a satanist. The most renowned satanism is LeVeyan satanism. Under LeVeyan tenets, you are a miserable ingrate, undeserving of life.  

[zz1000zz]

Priestley

Take the signature issue to PMs, please.

Humorous timing of posts caused my response to already go through before reading this. That said, there is nothing wrong with me responding to the signature in this topic. Posts are allowed to go off topic to some extent.

Of course, if it were to develop into an actual discussion, rather than one simple exchange, it would need to be moved to a different venue.  

[Lazarus The Resurected]

zz1000zz

Lazarus The Resurected

Christian v. Satanist. i believe round one goes to you. but just for the record what is so absurd abotu my signature it is a brief summation, yes but it's logic is at least sound.

First, I am relatively certain I have not labeled myself a Christian. It is largely immaterial, but you should try to avoid labeling people.

Second, your signature is just a flowery version of the "problem of evil." It is commonly written:

Quote:

If a perfectly good god exists, then there is no evil in the world.
There is evil in the world.
Therefore, a perfectly good god does not exist.

The first statement makes an assumption. This assumption is incorrect, therefore the entire approach is wrong. Indeed, the trappings of a "proof" exist only to hide the incorrectness of the argument. Not only is the "logic" unsound, it is dishonest.

I find it interesting you label yourself a satanist. The most renowned satanism is LeVeyan satanism. Under LeVeyan tenets, you are a miserable ingrate, undeserving of life.

True but luckily for me LaVey's been dead long enough that he can't stop me from reading into and agreeing with most of his work. although the part where i am undesreving of life i'm not sure i've checked that part of the Satanic Bible recently.  

[zz1000zz]

Lazarus The Resurected

True but luckily for me LaVey's been dead long enough that he can't stop me from reading into and agreeing with most of his work. although the part where i am undesreving of life i'm not sure i've checked that part of the Satanic Bible recently.

LeVeyan satanism holds the self as supreme. Living only because another would want you to goes against the very foundation of his religion.

This actually brings me to an interesting question. I wonder how many religions would acutally support, or at least condone, suicide.  

[Lazarus The Resurected]

zz1000zz

Lazarus The Resurected

True but luckily for me LaVey's been dead long enough that he can't stop me from reading into and agreeing with most of his work. although the part where i am undesreving of life i'm not sure i've checked that part of the Satanic Bible recently.

LeVeyan satanism holds the self as supreme. Living only because another would want you to goes against the very foundation of his religion.

This actually brings me to an interesting question. I wonder how many religions would acutally support, or at least condone, suicide.

Satanic Bible, Book of Lucifer, page 52:
"Satatanism represents a form of controlled selfishenss. This does not mean that you never do anything for anyone else. If you do something to make someone for whom you care happy, his happiness will give you a sence of gratification."

i don't live strictly for anyone but me but i am cautioned against causing undue harm to those for whom i care. It goes into this in a slightly different vein later in the book as well. at sixteen and contemplating a way out, yes i admit i was weak and yes i know, "Trice cursed are the weak whose insecurity makes them vile, for they shal serve and suffer." but i am made stronger by the experiance.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

I'm fairly certian Buddhism wouldn't, since being overwhelmed by life's problems to the point of suicide would imply that one hasn't been able to disconnect from them and realize that they are irrelevant and inconsequential. Or something. Not sure what other religions might or might not- I don't know enough outside of Christianity to really make that judgement.  

[Priestley]

zz1000zz

Priestley

Take the signature issue to PMs, please.

Humorous timing of posts caused my response to already go through before reading this. That said, there is nothing wrong with me responding to the signature in this topic. Posts are allowed to go off topic to some extent.

Of course, if it were to develop into an actual discussion, rather than one simple exchange, it would need to be moved to a different venue.

It's acceptable if points brought up in the thread have some bearing on or traceable route back to the original discussion. If you can tell me the link between Lazarus' signature and his negativity towards the issue of suicide, then there would be no problem. I don't believe there is a link, which is why I suggested taking the issue to PMs.

If you do wish to pursue Lazarus' negativity towards suicide, however, his personal experience of it is a perfectly acceptable line along which you may continue. smile  

[zz1000zz]

Lazarus The Resurected

zz1000zz

Lazarus The Resurected

True but luckily for me LaVey's been dead long enough that he can't stop me from reading into and agreeing with most of his work. although the part where i am undesreving of life i'm not sure i've checked that part of the Satanic Bible recently.

LeVeyan satanism holds the self as supreme. Living only because another would want you to goes against the very foundation of his religion.

This actually brings me to an interesting question. I wonder how many religions would acutally support, or at least condone, suicide.

Satanic Bible, Book of Lucifer, page 52:
"Satatanism represents a form of controlled selfishenss. This does not mean that you never do anything for anyone else. If you do something to make someone for whom you care happy, his happiness will give you a sence of gratification."

Personal gratification gained through the satisfaction of others is important in LeVeyan satanism, but it is not what you described. That is a positive forcing, whereas what you described was a negative forcing. It is the difference between:

Quote:

He is happy I am living. His joy makes me happy, so I will continue living.

And:

Quote:

He would be sad if I died. I do not want him to be sad, so I will not die.

 

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

Lazarus The Resurected

zz1000zz

Lazarus The Resurected

True but luckily for me LaVey's been dead long enough that he can't stop me from reading into and agreeing with most of his work. although the part where i am undesreving of life i'm not sure i've checked that part of the Satanic Bible recently.

LeVeyan satanism holds the self as supreme. Living only because another would want you to goes against the very foundation of his religion.

This actually brings me to an interesting question. I wonder how many religions would acutally support, or at least condone, suicide.

Satanic Bible, Book of Lucifer, page 52:
"Satatanism represents a form of controlled selfishenss. This does not mean that you never do anything for anyone else. If you do something to make someone for whom you care happy, his happiness will give you a sence of gratification."

i don't live strictly for anyone but me but i am cautioned against causing undue harm to those for whom i care. It goes into this in a slightly different vein later in the book as well. at sixteen and contemplating a way out, yes i admit i was weak and yes i know, "Trice cursed are the weak whose insecurity makes them vile, for they shal serve and suffer." but i am made stronger by the experiance.

I actually think it takes more courage to commit suicide than to continue living- with living, at least you already know what's to come. Dying is an unsure and uncharted process. You can have faith about what's waiting on the other side, but to know for sure requires actually following through, and there is always the possibility of being wrong.

That said, I continue to stand by what I already said: that suicide is an option considered and enacted upon by those who physically and literally cannot fight the thoughts that drive them to that point. I imagine it's more an act of exhaustion- being sick and tired of being sick and tired- rather than fear.  

[Priestley]

Fushigi na Butterfly

Lazarus The Resurected

zz1000zz

Lazarus The Resurected

True but luckily for me LaVey's been dead long enough that he can't stop me from reading into and agreeing with most of his work. although the part where i am undesreving of life i'm not sure i've checked that part of the Satanic Bible recently.

LeVeyan satanism holds the self as supreme. Living only because another would want you to goes against the very foundation of his religion.

This actually brings me to an interesting question. I wonder how many religions would acutally support, or at least condone, suicide.

Satanic Bible, Book of Lucifer, page 52:
"Satatanism represents a form of controlled selfishenss. This does not mean that you never do anything for anyone else. If you do something to make someone for whom you care happy, his happiness will give you a sence of gratification."

i don't live strictly for anyone but me but i am cautioned against causing undue harm to those for whom i care. It goes into this in a slightly different vein later in the book as well. at sixteen and contemplating a way out, yes i admit i was weak and yes i know, "Trice cursed are the weak whose insecurity makes them vile, for they shal serve and suffer." but i am made stronger by the experiance.

I actually think it takes more courage to commit suicide than to continue living- with living, at least you already know what's to come. Dying is an unsure and uncharted process. You can have faith about what's waiting on the other side, but to know for sure requires actually following through, and there is always the possibility of being wrong.

That said, I continue to stand by what I already said: that suicide is an option considered and enacted upon by those who physically and literally cannot fight the thoughts that drive them to that point. I imagine it's more an act of exhaustion- being sick and tired of being sick and tired- rather than fear.

Mm, but it being an escape suggests lack of control whereas, in most cases, suicides are a demonstration of control and determination.

Besides, what is the difference between submission to the circumstances of one's life and the submission to the circumstances of one's death?  

[Lazarus The Resurected]

zz1000zz

Lazarus The Resurected

zz1000zz

Lazarus The Resurected

True but luckily for me LaVey's been dead long enough that he can't stop me from reading into and agreeing with most of his work. although the part where i am undesreving of life i'm not sure i've checked that part of the Satanic Bible recently.

LeVeyan satanism holds the self as supreme. Living only because another would want you to goes against the very foundation of his religion.

This actually brings me to an interesting question. I wonder how many religions would acutally support, or at least condone, suicide.

Satanic Bible, Book of Lucifer, page 52:
"Satatanism represents a form of controlled selfishenss. This does not mean that you never do anything for anyone else. If you do something to make someone for whom you care happy, his happiness will give you a sence of gratification."

Personal gratification gained through the satisfaction of others is important in LeVeyan satanism, but it is not what you described. That is a positive forcing, whereas what you described was a negative forcing. It is the difference between:

Quote:

He is happy I am living. His joy makes me happy, so I will continue living.

And:

Quote:

He would be sad if I died. I do not want him to be sad, so I will not die.

I'm too bleeding tired to argue and besides you are right anyway. so when i return prehaps we could continue form the part where we argue the pro's and cons of Suicide rather than me at 16?  

[Priestley]

Lazarus The Resurected

so when i return prehaps we could continue form the part where we argue the pro's and cons of Suicide rather than me at 16?

But the thread topic really isn't about the good and bad of suicide but the nature of suicide, the mind of suicidal people, and the Biblical and Christian perspectives on it. I think we've thoroughly discussed it but there's always room for more. smile  

[zz1000zz]

EDIT (Priestley): My apologies, zz1000zz. I seem to have edited the post instead of quoting it. Anyway, what I was going to say was that your previous post no longer reads like an ad hominem now that you have explained your thoughts. Please proceed as necessary. smile

Priestley

It's acceptable if points brought up in the thread have some bearing on or traceable route back to the original discussion. If you can tell me the link between Lazarus' signature and his negativity towards the issue of suicide, then there would be no problem. I don't believe there is a link, which is why I suggested taking the issue to PMs.

If you do wish to pursue Lazarus' negativity towards suicide, however, his personal experience of it is a perfectly acceptable line along which you may continue. smile

Lazarus The Resurected's signature is anti-christianity, so there is an obvious tie to any discussion of a topic involving christianity. His religious beliefs, as spoken towards by his signature, would be tied to his beliefs on this topic. Indeed, the logical failure found in his signature helps demonstrate an underlying issue, which may be to blame for the logical failures of his posts on the topic of suicide.

The key to things that are not directly on-topic is just to keep them from disrupting the actual topic. A brief exchange of two or three posts is not harmful to a topic, so it should be allowed.  

[zz1000zz]

Priestley

Mm, but it being an escape suggests lack of control whereas, in most cases, suicides are a demonstration of control and determination.

Most suicides are a demonstration of control, only in that they are a way of regaining control. It is similar to people cutting themselves. They cannot control the situation, so they find something they can control.