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 Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:19 pm
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broken_bleeding_angel Araya_Sunshine_Luvz_ya I am your Mord Sith Araya_Sunshine_Luvz_ya Abortion is murder. There is no doubt in my mind that this is true. But... if I were raped and ended up pregnant... I know I would convince myself it wasn't, just long enough to get an abortion, and feel the pain and guilt for the rest of my life. I would get an abortion if I were the victim of rape, but I would feel the blood on my hands for the rest of my life, and pictures of babies would make me cry. No its not murder. In the beginning stages its not even a fetus or an embryo. Its a zygote, a simple cluster of cells. Its foolish to even think that its murder. You "murder" cells on your body every single day. You "kill" cells just by brushing your teeth or combing your hair. yes, I know the science behind it. When I comb my hair and brush my teeth, I am not trying to kill the cells. I don't even realize I am. And even you admitted that a zygote is a beginning, as in on it's way to becoming something. Something that is not myself, but a whole different being. I would be taking away someone else's lifetime before they got the chance to try. The idea it's self of destroying some little undeveloped cluster of cells is not evil, but when you get an abortion you are fully aware that you are killing the cells, and never giving someone a chance to live. It is in the act of choosing to kill that abortion becomes murder. Well then don't eat eggs, cuz you're killing those "potential" baby chickens too.
Actually, most chicken eggs don't have embryos. It's just the food that the embryo would have eaten if it were there, but since the chicken didn't mate with a rooster the egg went unfertilized and just came out on it's own. You can check if a chicken egg has an embryo with a flashlight, and the chicken embryo is big enough to be visible by the time a hen lays it, so don't just say it's still too small to see. Learned that in kindergarten. Please back up your arguments with science so I can have a serous debate. Thank you. |
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:37 pm
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meleny7 finalfantasyfreak1O1 Rei Uchikino finalfantasyfreak1O1 Rei Uchikino finalfantasyfreak1O1 I know im probally going to get yelled at but why would u want to murrder a child. YES!!!!!! YOU ARE KILLING A CHILD!!!!!!! If you dont want to get pregnant dont do it. The smart thing to do is wait till your married anyway. Its not like u need to get into bed with somone to tell if u want to spend the rest of your life with them anyway. Also i understand that you might be uneasy about having some stranger's kid, but it doesent mean u have to kill the innocent baby for it. Its not their fault. Im emmbarassed of my mom being 16 and my dad being 25(he left shortlly after i was born and never came back) but i cant change it and now im blamed for her not going to college. Dont kill a baby because u dont want it give it up for adoption. Its that simple! Most clinics won't abort after the first trimester. The embryo doesn't grow that much during those first three months. It doesn't look like a human, and it doesn't even have the intelligence of a human infant. Disposing of an embryo is no different than exterminating larvae. An embryo is not the equivalent of a child, therefore you are not killing a child. And also, rape victims feel much more than uneasy at the thought of keeping an unwanted child. And no, adoption is not a good alternative, either. Even if the child is a product of rape, you have no bloody idea the guilt women feel for giving up there own flesh and blood. You'd have to be a heartless fool not to feel the tiniest shred of guilt. The fact that you think any of this is so simple shows how little maternal instincts you really have. And not every woman wants to screw up their body for a kid that they're not even going to keep. If I'm going to ******** up my body having a kid, I'm sure as hell going to keep the little b*****d. Until then, should I ever get pregnant, I'm going abort the little bean shaped leech as many times as I need to. How could you say if you got pregnant you would kill your own child. If you could acctually be ok with killing your kid and treatting them like a nusance just shows how little maternal instincs u have. I would rather know that my child would have a chance to live than kill it when i dont know what kind of person the child could be. Having a child wont mess up your body either if you have enouph brains to know what a gym is. No matter what stage of pregnancey your at it still is a human and has a soul. Also that retarded idea that if a child's mother was a rape victim that its going to be unwanted is not true. How do u know that everyone wont want the kid. I would take any kid in a heart beat that has a monster of a mother to think that thier child is unwanted by everyone because they were raped. I'm not going to explain it to you again. It's not a bloody child. I don't consider it killing when you're sucking out something that isn't even fully developed. Something that isn't even BORN. And don't you ******** dare tell me that I have no maternal instincts. I treat my friend's children and my neice and nephew like they're my own ******** kids. Given the oppurtunity I would take a ******** bullet for any of those kids. So don't you ******** DARE say that. Also, take notice that I didn't say a single word about anyone not wanting the child. Stop putting words in my mouth and reread my ******** post, little girl. And it takes more money to keep the kid and join a gym. I'd rather just spend my money on an abortion. Doesn't cost as much. I work hard for my figure and I'm not going to let anyone take that from me yet. Now take your self-rightous bull s**t and shove it all the way up your a**. I'm so ******** tired of you self-rightous pro-lifers shoving your opinion down everyone's throat. Instead of lecturing strangers on the Internet, why don't you go all the way and start a bloody protest outside of an abortion clinic? All i did was say my opinion. Your the one that wanted to start trouble. Im sorry that your to lazy to take any responsibillity for the stupid choices you make. Goodbye and have a nice day because im not going to waist my time with a idiot like you. And all she did was say her opinion. Your the idiot feeling the need to try and insult her. Also you are putting abortion into one category. There are many situations that could lead to a woman wanting to abort a child. And as it was said before it's not murder unless you take it out too late. I think it's better to have an abortion than to have it and abuse it, or giving it a way making it a bigger chance that something will happen to it. Also if you can't accept or handle the scientific facts that are staring you in the face you should not even be post in the debate subforum.
I said my opinion and she started to tell me that adoption wont work and that if somone is raped that the child will be unwanted.
You people wach way to much TV.
My aunt is a foster parent and all of the kids she hs gotten have been adopted by her or somone elts or went back home to their parents.
She was adopted when she was little.
I know people will get abortions as long as they can, but there are other ways of getting rid of a baby you dont want.
I understand that if somone gets raped they just want to get rid of the baby as soon as posible, but you keep saying you dont want to carry their baby when you should remember that the baby is yours too.
I never mentioned this but the only time i would ever agree with abortion is when the mother is in danger.
I could care less about what you think of me but i dont like it when people tell me im wrong about somthing when i know for a fact that im at least 70% right.
Adoption might not work all the time but i have seen many people be adopted or go home to their parents and all of them are happy.
For all those people who still want to fight forget it this is the last thing im saying in this conversation, stop harrassing me. |
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:04 pm
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:06 pm
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finalfantasyfreak1O1 meleny7 finalfantasyfreak1O1 Rei Uchikino finalfantasyfreak1O1 How could you say if you got pregnant you would kill your own child. If you could acctually be ok with killing your kid and treatting them like a nusance just shows how little maternal instincs u have. I would rather know that my child would have a chance to live than kill it when i dont know what kind of person the child could be. Having a child wont mess up your body either if you have enouph brains to know what a gym is. No matter what stage of pregnancey your at it still is a human and has a soul. Also that retarded idea that if a child's mother was a rape victim that its going to be unwanted is not true. How do u know that everyone wont want the kid. I would take any kid in a heart beat that has a monster of a mother to think that thier child is unwanted by everyone because they were raped. I'm not going to explain it to you again. It's not a bloody child. I don't consider it killing when you're sucking out something that isn't even fully developed. Something that isn't even BORN. And don't you ******** dare tell me that I have no maternal instincts. I treat my friend's children and my neice and nephew like they're my own ******** kids. Given the oppurtunity I would take a ******** bullet for any of those kids. So don't you ******** DARE say that. Also, take notice that I didn't say a single word about anyone not wanting the child. Stop putting words in my mouth and reread my ******** post, little girl. And it takes more money to keep the kid and join a gym. I'd rather just spend my money on an abortion. Doesn't cost as much. I work hard for my figure and I'm not going to let anyone take that from me yet. Now take your self-rightous bull s**t and shove it all the way up your a**. I'm so ******** tired of you self-rightous pro-lifers shoving your opinion down everyone's throat. Instead of lecturing strangers on the Internet, why don't you go all the way and start a bloody protest outside of an abortion clinic? All i did was say my opinion. Your the one that wanted to start trouble. Im sorry that your to lazy to take any responsibillity for the stupid choices you make. Goodbye and have a nice day because im not going to waist my time with a idiot like you. And all she did was say her opinion. Your the idiot feeling the need to try and insult her. Also you are putting abortion into one category. There are many situations that could lead to a woman wanting to abort a child. And as it was said before it's not murder unless you take it out too late. I think it's better to have an abortion than to have it and abuse it, or giving it a way making it a bigger chance that something will happen to it. Also if you can't accept or handle the scientific facts that are staring you in the face you should not even be post in the debate subforum. I said my opinion and she started to tell me that adoption wont work and that if somone is raped that the child will be unwanted. You people wach way to much TV. My aunt is a foster parent and all of the kids she hs gotten have been adopted by her or somone elts or went back home to their parents. She was adopted when she was little. I know people will get abortions as long as they can, but there are other ways of getting rid of a baby you dont want. I understand that if somone gets raped they just want to get rid of the baby as soon as posible, but you keep saying you dont want to carry their baby when you should remember that the baby is yours too. I never mentioned this but the only time i would ever agree with abortion is when the mother is in danger. I could care less about what you think of me but i dont like it when people tell me im wrong about somthing when i know for a fact that im at least 70% right. Adoption might not work all the time but i have seen many people be adopted or go home to their parents and all of them are happy. For all those people who still want to fight forget it this is the last thing im saying in this conversation, stop harrassing me.
Go back and read my post. I never said that adoption wouldn't work. I said that I wouldn't recommend it because of the guilt and emotional pain women feel for giving up their own flesh and blood. And I was implying that the mother wouldn't want the child, not everyone in general. Stop putting words in my mouth because that wasn't what I said.
If I was raped I wouldn't care if the kid was half of me, too, because it would be a constant reminder of my rape. I'm not going to keep a kid that reminds me of something like that and I certainly wouldn't put him or her through that either.
And don't act like you know every single thing about adotion just because you've seen people get adopted and stuff like that. There are a LOT of kids who get put into adoption agencies. A lot of them go into foster homes where they're abused. And if there's the slightest chance that the kid is going to be abused, then I'd much rather avoid putting a kid into an environment like that.
And notice that I never said that you were wrong. I was disagreeing with you. If everyone agreed with you it wouldn't be much of a debate now would it? If you want everyone to agree with you, then you shouldn't be posting in the debate subforum.
Now you said you were done once before and then you came back. So really, I don't believe you when you say that this is your last post. Granted, I said the same, but I'm not going to sit idly by and let people put words in my mouth.
BTW, thanks for proving what a bigot you are. Insulting someone for allegedly saying that you're wrong and abandonning an arguement only shows that you won't accept any opinion but your own. |
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:44 pm
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Kimmy_is_awesome What some of you Pro-Life people are forgetting is that Pro-Choice doesn't necessarily mean KILL THE BABY. I've noticed that Pro-choice to some people is murder. It's not it's the freedom to decide what to do which is getting an abortion or having the child. I'm pro-choice by the way. Another thing, why so much anger :/ It's just a debate to freely express opinions. I don't see the need to be cursing in an abortion forum ninja
Kimmy is the first person to approach this topic with an open mind. Thank you Kimmy, for being the one who spoke up about the profound lack of awareness to the goal of this debate: to reach understanding and express views, not judge and attack each other savagely. Instead of debating there have been petty arguments that resorted to name calling and the such which is completely inappropriate to the situation.
Also Kimmy makes a good point: Giving people the chance to choose does not mean you like to kill babies, it means you think people have the right to choose. I do not agree with this as I believe there should be laws protecting people, or even just the beginnings of people from people like I have admitted myself to be, who would convince themselves that abortion is okay if they were raped. The only condition, as I realized made sense only after seeing other peoples opinions, is if the mother is in danger of dying in or because of childbirth. Wile the baby did nothing wrong, if a life is lost in the process of it's birth, unless the mother is willing to give up her life for the baby, I have to admit that saving the mother's life is priority. I believe that life should be protected at all cost, but sadly there are times when you must choose one life or another, and I admit that choosing to save the mother's life is priority, because nobody knows or laves the beginning of a baby inside her, but if she died many who knew her would probably be devastated, only adding anguish to the world. But I am having some trouble categorizing this opinion. Tell me, does approving of abortion in order to save the mother's life make me pro-life or pro-choice? Please answer with opinions about my statement, counter arguments, scientific fact that proves anything I have stated as fact invalid, or any combination of the three. |
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:30 pm
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finalfantasyfreak1O1 meleny7 finalfantasyfreak1O1 Rei Uchikino finalfantasyfreak1O1 How could you say if you got pregnant you would kill your own child. If you could acctually be ok with killing your kid and treatting them like a nusance just shows how little maternal instincs u have. I would rather know that my child would have a chance to live than kill it when i dont know what kind of person the child could be. Having a child wont mess up your body either if you have enouph brains to know what a gym is. No matter what stage of pregnancey your at it still is a human and has a soul. Also that retarded idea that if a child's mother was a rape victim that its going to be unwanted is not true. How do u know that everyone wont want the kid. I would take any kid in a heart beat that has a monster of a mother to think that thier child is unwanted by everyone because they were raped. I'm not going to explain it to you again. It's not a bloody child. I don't consider it killing when you're sucking out something that isn't even fully developed. Something that isn't even BORN. And don't you ******** dare tell me that I have no maternal instincts. I treat my friend's children and my neice and nephew like they're my own ******** kids. Given the oppurtunity I would take a ******** bullet for any of those kids. So don't you ******** DARE say that. Also, take notice that I didn't say a single word about anyone not wanting the child. Stop putting words in my mouth and reread my ******** post, little girl. And it takes more money to keep the kid and join a gym. I'd rather just spend my money on an abortion. Doesn't cost as much. I work hard for my figure and I'm not going to let anyone take that from me yet. Now take your self-rightous bull s**t and shove it all the way up your a**. I'm so ******** tired of you self-rightous pro-lifers shoving your opinion down everyone's throat. Instead of lecturing strangers on the Internet, why don't you go all the way and start a bloody protest outside of an abortion clinic? All i did was say my opinion. Your the one that wanted to start trouble. Im sorry that your to lazy to take any responsibillity for the stupid choices you make. Goodbye and have a nice day because im not going to waist my time with a idiot like you. And all she did was say her opinion. Your the idiot feeling the need to try and insult her. Also you are putting abortion into one category. There are many situations that could lead to a woman wanting to abort a child. And as it was said before it's not murder unless you take it out too late. I think it's better to have an abortion than to have it and abuse it, or giving it a way making it a bigger chance that something will happen to it. Also if you can't accept or handle the scientific facts that are staring you in the face you should not even be post in the debate subforum. I said my opinion and she started to tell me that adoption wont work and that if somone is raped that the child will be unwanted. You people wach way to much TV. My aunt is a foster parent and all of the kids she hs gotten have been adopted by her or somone elts or went back home to their parents. She was adopted when she was little. I know people will get abortions as long as they can, but there are other ways of getting rid of a baby you dont want. I understand that if somone gets raped they just want to get rid of the baby as soon as posible, but you keep saying you dont want to carry their baby when you should remember that the baby is yours too. I never mentioned this but the only time i would ever agree with abortion is when the mother is in danger. I could care less about what you think of me but i dont like it when people tell me im wrong about somthing when i know for a fact that im at least 70% right. Adoption might not work all the time but i have seen many people be adopted or go home to their parents and all of them are happy. For all those people who still want to fight forget it this is the last thing im saying in this conversation, stop harrassing me.
I have a question for you. So if the mother was in danger you could kill the baby? Meaning that you are not really pro life. As it was said before Pro choice doesn't mean to kill the baby. It's giving a woman the decision whether to keep it or not. and honestly you are not 70 percent right. and if you pay close attention your not getting attacked for your opinion. You are getting attacked for attacking another member for having her opinion. And believe it or not having a child and giving it away most of the time is worse than not having it at all. Kids get abused, mistreated, taken from foster home to foster home. I think that's too much pain for a person to handle on both sides. |
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Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:55 pm
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meleny7 I have a question for you. So if the mother was in danger you could kill the baby? Meaning that you are not really pro life.
Zephyrkitty I don't see why life/health issues would make someone pro-choice. If the pro-life argument is that they value life, then allowing an abortion in cases where the mother is in danger holds with their stance.
I posted this in another thread, like, two days ago. Jeez.
meleny7 And believe it or not having a child and giving it away most of the time is worse than not having it at all.
[url=http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/extended-discussion/the-abortion-debate/t.11582937/]Talon-chan[/url] Resident Lune I don't think you fully comprehend just how efficient adoption is. It's true, it has its faults. Children are passed up for the most illogical reasons; racism being one of them. But that does not mean that babies would be better off dead than in adoption agencies if they've already reached a point in the stage of pregnancy that they can survive out of the womb. The fact that the adoption system may be against one's morals, and the fact that it is currently a racist institution does not mean that one ought to act on the belief that a child is better off dead than in adoption. If one believes a fetus is the equivalent of a born child it is rediculous to believe the child ought to be killed simply because it currently lives in an unfortunate situation. Just as one would not kill a born child living in poverty because they feel it would be better off dead one should not abort solely because the adoption system currently sucks (assuming that a fetus is the equivalent of a born child). For a pro-lifer the fact that the adoption system has flaws is not a justification for abortion.
I'm pro-choice, but some of you guys are making terrible arguments. I should just start playing Devil's Advocate and see where this goes.
A different approach to the adoption topic:
Personally, I am morally opposed to adoption the same way pro-lifers are morally opposed to abortion. I feel that it is extremely irresponsible for me to bring a child into the world, and then expect someone else to take care of it. I do not want to contribute to a system that favors white, healthy newborns and does little to help everyone else in the system (seriously, go to an adoption agency and say you'll adopt someone that's not a white, healthy newborn; there won't be any shortage of kids). I would not want to go through life having carried a child for nine months, and having no knowledge of what they were doing with their life or if they were even alive. Finally, adoption can be extremely scarring for the mother; I've heard many similar stories regarding adoption, so this isn't a rare response to giving up a child. Stories like this also make me wary of approaching a group to give up a child; I feel that people need to be able to make a choice regarding what they want to do with the child, pressuring someone into any choice (especially with false information) is something that should never happen.
While I feel that the adoption system needs to be severely reformed, I do not feel that adoption needs to be illegalized. However, until all of the problems I mentioned above have been eliminated, I do not see adoption as an option for myself any more than the pro-life side sees abortion as a solution for an unwanted pregnancy. |
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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:48 am
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Rei Uchikino There are a LOT of kids who get put into adoption agencies. A lot of them go into foster homes where they're abused.
meleny7 And believe it or not having a child and giving it away most of the time is worse than not having it at all. Kids get abused, mistreated, taken from foster home to foster home.
Reposting something from the other thread with minor edits since this is pretty much the same argument.
The 'fetus will be abused/have a bad life' argument is an argument from potential. The fetus could end up abused in a foster home. It also could grow up to cure cancer. The fact that it's a potential anything is completely irrelevant for the exact same reason that I, as a potential 21-year-old, can't drink. And honestly, the pro-life side using arguments from potential makes me angry, and I've never been a fan of double-standards.
Another problem is that the 'fetus will be abused/have a bad life' argument's a slippery slope. Pretend we've got a four-year-old kid who's being abused in a foster home. Considering your argument is basically 'it's okay to kill the fetus if it might have a bad life', then logically we should kill the four-year-old because this kid does have a bad life. If this isn't something you agree with, then you really need to explain why it's okay to kill a fetus due to it's potential future but not a living person due to their present situation.
Finally, the adoption system is ageist. What a kid put into the adoption system will go through is very different from what a baby put into the adoption system will go through. If it's a healthy white newborn - and that's somewhere around a third of all abortions right there - it's going to be adopted with no problems. This isn't an argument from potential; 'healthy, white newborn' is what most of the waiting list consists of. Other babies might get bounced around in foster homes (and how likely that is varies, as people in general want to adopt babies), but a good portion of these babies are wanted to the point that, if they had enough intelligence to do so, could pick from possible parents. |
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:10 pm
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:25 pm
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:25 pm
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:28 pm
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Araya_Sunshine_Luvz_ya I am your Mord Sith Araya_Sunshine_Luvz_ya I am your Mord Sith Araya_Sunshine_Luvz_ya Abortion is murder. There is no doubt in my mind that this is true. But... if I were raped and ended up pregnant... I know I would convince myself it wasn't, just long enough to get an abortion, and feel the pain and guilt for the rest of my life. I would get an abortion if I were the victim of rape, but I would feel the blood on my hands for the rest of my life, and pictures of babies would make me cry. No its not murder. In the beginning stages its not even a fetus or an embryo. Its a zygote, a simple cluster of cells. Its foolish to even think that its murder. You "murder" cells on your body every single day. You "kill" cells just by brushing your teeth or combing your hair. yes, I know the science behind it. When I comb my hair and brush my teeth, I am not trying to kill the cells. I don't even realize I am. And even you admitted that a zygote is a beginning, as in on it's way to becoming something. Something that is not myself, but a whole different being. I would be taking away someone else's lifetime before they got the chance to try. The idea it's self of destroying some little undeveloped cluster of cells is not evil, but when you get an abortion you are fully aware that you are killing the cells, and never giving someone a chance to live. It is in the act of choosing to kill that abortion becomes murder. I don't care, its still a zygote. A simple cluster of cells and nothing more. Yes, it has potential to become something but to me when its still a zygote, its not even considered alive. Scrap it out of your vag before it becomes something. Therefore, its not murder. Since you simply disagreed with my argument and restated your own instead of presenting a valid counter argument, there is no room for a response, bringing this debate to a standstill. I'm afraid we will have to just agree to disagree. Too bad, it would have been nice to come to an understanding on the topic. Oh well.
I did have a valid counter argument. A zygote isn't human, as long as you kill it before it becomes a human, its not murder. It would be no different then a girl having her period or a man dropping the kids off at the pool. Thats killing potential life too. |
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:29 pm
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Rei Uchikino YunaAndTidus234 All of you idiots that keep yelling at FinalFantasyFreak1O1 stop it cus i wrote that. I knew her password and wanted to see the guild she was in, when i saw this i got mad and said what i think should be said. So all of you that want to keep complaining about how much im wrong go ahead im ready for whatever you throw at me. Again, no one said anyone was wrong. If you were the one to post all of that then you are, however, wrong to insult me the way you did. You misunderstood what I had posted and jumped to conclusions. I also have trouble believing that your story is true. How do I know that she didn't just ask you to say that you were the one to post all of that stuff, hmm? If that's true then I stand by my judgment of her being a coward. However, if you really were the one to post all of that, then I apologize for assuming it was her and that I'm sorry for lashing out at her. BTW, your a shitty friend for starting trouble on your friend's account and making people assume it was her. Kudos.
Agreed |
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:53 pm
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:06 pm
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