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 Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:51 pm
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Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:55 pm
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Kiyitai
[Frederick], you bring up a good point. However, the question is, would Dumbledore want people to know? I think not. Dumbledore, no matter how trusting he is, is still suspicious by nature, and would not just go off telling people what happened.
For one, people would know that Malfoy was up to something, or wanted to kill Dumbledore. And that would result in expulsion from the school. Not to mention Snape talking with Death Eaters. Wouldn't the Ministry get suspicious that Snape really was a Death Eater? Dumbledore wouldn't want that.
Dumbledore would want it done as quietly as possible. If Voldemort or any of his followers got wind that Snape was reporting to Dumbledore, it would be 'bye bye' for Snape.
And imagine that everyone DID manage to trust Snape after he kills Dumbledore. Wouldn't Voldemort get just a little suspicious on why the Order isn't murdering Snape for murdering their leader? There are many many reasons on why Dumbledore would not want to go blathering to everyone that Snape would have to kill him at the end of the year.I didn't say that he should tell everyone I said tell someone. There is absolutely no point of having Snape for a spy if no one is going to even take into concideration what he says. Dumbledore could tell a high-ranked member of the Order (if the Order has anything along the lines of ranks >_>) without telling the entire Order, let alone the entire Ministry. Also, Snape's a good actor, he could make it seem like he's not associating with the Order while at the same time supplying information to the person told. |
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Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:57 am
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Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:47 pm
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Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:28 pm
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Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:17 pm
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Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:12 pm
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Ok...
very tired...
so I'm sorry, but I've only read the first post...
Anyways...
I think that Snape is good...
I really like the idea that Dumbledore told Snape he'd have to kill him if need be...
Why else would Dumbledore finally give him the Defense Against the Dark Arts job?
When he knew and we all soon found out that it really is jynxed...
And I don't like the idea that I've heard lately of an unbreakable curse forcing him to do anything...
Hermione herself says earlier in that very book when Harry is looking through the Prince's potion book for ways to get the memory from Slughorn "There's only one way to force someone to do something they don't want to do and that's the Impirus curse, which is illegal." (I really wish I had my books here with me, but I know that she say it, I've argued this in another guild...)
Plus there is how Snape sounded like a hurt animal (well a yelping Fang in a burning house, to be exact) when he screamed "Don't call me a coward"
And if he was truely evil,
I really don't think he would have saved Harry from Electra and her brother's cruciatus curses...
And then there was when Hagrid heard Snape arguing with Dumbledore, saying maybe Snape didn't want to do it anymore. He might have been talking about Draco, it's been said many times and it certainly seemed that way when I was reading the book for the first time. But Snape was worried about Draco. He had made the unbreakable vow. And he also liked Draco best among the Slytherins long before the 6th book. JK built up a bond between them for us, don't you see? He certainly wouldn't want Draco to fail his mission and be killed by either Dumbledore in retaliation or by Voldemort in punishment. And I don't think Dumbledore would ever put himself before a student.
I think it was either Flitwick or Hagrid who said, about burrying(sp?) Dumbledore at Hogwarts, "No other Headmaster has ever given more to this school than Dumbledore." I don't think that devotion would stop at his own life for a student's.
Also,
Snape tried to help Dumbledore convince Fudge that Voldemort was back at the end of the forth book. He showed him the Dark Mark,
something that had, apparently, been kept a secret from the ministry until then...
or else they would have easily known that all those escaped deatheaters were lying through their teeth about being bewhitched, they would have just needed to look at their arms...
It wouldn't be intelegent to burn a mork onto an enemy's skin,
because it seems to allow that person to apperate to the Dark Lord's side...
And also...
I don't think Dumbledore really gave his reason for trusing Snape...
It said he seemed to be deciding something...
I have this really weird and new theory that's been brewing in my head about him haveing affection, maybe not love, but at least affection for Lily...
but that's just a bit off topic...
and if I try that one,
I think I'd need to do it when I get back home from the holidays and have my books back next to me...
3nodding |
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Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 4:37 pm
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Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:11 pm
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KTweirdchick
Why else would Dumbledore finally give him the Defense Against the Dark Arts job? KTweirdchick
And I don't like the idea that I've heard lately of an unbreakable curse forcing him to do anything...
Hermione herself says earlier in that very book when Harry is looking through the Prince's potion book for ways to get the memory from Slughorn "There's only one way to force someone to do something they don't want to do and that's the Impirus curse, which is illegal." (I really wish I had my books here with me, but I know that she say it, I've argued this in another guild...)KTweirdchick Plus there is how Snape sounded like a hurt animal (well a yelping Fang in a burning house, to be exact) when he screamed "Don't call me a coward" KTweirdchick And if he was truely evil, KTweirdchick I really don't think he would have saved Harry from Electra and her brother's cruciatus curses... KTweridchick And then there was when Hagrid heard Snape arguing with Dumbledore, saying maybe Snape didn't want to do it anymore. He might have been talking about Draco, it's been said many times and it certainly seemed that way when I was reading the book for the first time. But Snape was worried about Draco. He had made the unbreakable vow. And he also liked Draco best among the Slytherins long before the 6th book. JK built up a bond between them for us, don't you see? He certainly wouldn't want Draco to fail his mission and be killed by either Dumbledore in retaliation or by Voldemort in punishment. And I don't think Dumbledore would ever put himself before a student.
@Ernie: Huh. Yeah, I think I've officially confused myself over what ever it was we were talking about. >_>;
And don't give up on the human race yet! |
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Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:59 pm
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Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:11 pm
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JewelWoods How can you debate this?? let me ask you something how do the books always go?? harry says something...no one belives him...he's right.... they normally go some where allong that line..i mean look at book 6 "malfoy's up to something." "Uh-huh, sure he is harry." "No really it's Malfoy." "it's always malfoy isn't it?" "He's up to something you wait and see." ((i'm paraphrasing of course)) And sure enough it WAS malfoy... Ok now onto my point what has harry been saying since book 1??? "It's Snape." "Snape's evil" "He's evil" "I don't care what Dumbledore says i don't trust him" Ok now then we see Snape KILLDumbledore....and STILL people argue the fact?? He's EVIL let it go...
It's not a matter of fact. It's a matter of OPINION. There is nothing in the books that says in a concrete way, "SNAPE IS EVIL LAWLZ". Therefore, it isn't unquestionably determined.
Yeah, he killed Dumbles. So what?
Here, I'll C&P my argument from my journal, 'cause I'm lazy:
[Ernie] Snape killed Dumbledore. Anyone reading this ought to know why. He made an Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa Malfoy that he would look after her son, no matter what. What is really pissing me off is that PEOPLE ARE IGNORING THIS. They act as though Snape heartlessly killed Dumbledore for no reason except because he WANTED to kill him, and wouldn't let anyone else. It was originally Draco's job to kill Dumbledore, something speculated by some DEs that was payback for Lucius screwing up at the Ministry in OotP and with Tom's diary in CoS. Narcissa was worried: she knew Draco would not be able to do it. Voldemort threatened Draco and his parents with death if Draco did not follow his orders. So, "Cissy", as Bellatrix "Bella" calls her sister, went to Severus, since he was Draco's favorite and closest teacher. He Unbreakable-y Vow-ed to watch over Draco, no matter what, and to fulfill Draco's duties if need be. Which is exactly what Snape did. Draco could not/would not kill Dumbledore, and, in order to prevent Voldemort from killing the Malfoys and to prevent his own death ( he'd've died if he had broken the vow ), Snape killed Dumbledore. Okay people, think about it. Dumbledore would've died anyway, just at the hands of some other DE and the Malfoys AND Snape would've died. So, what's better, one person who was going to die anyway or five people, four of which would've had the chance to survive? Plus, Dumbledore told Harry that he ( Dumbledore ) valued Harry's life above his own ( of course, this could be because Harry is the only one who can defeat Voldemort; although Dumbledore seems to have shown this same affection to any youth ). Snape may have felt that Dumbledore would've preferred Malfoy and his mother to live, even if it meant he himself died. Not to mention that Dumbledore knew all along what Draco was up to, and didn't interfere because he didn't want to accidentely get Draco killed by Voldemort. HOWEVER, I'm not saying this excuses Snape completely. He betrayed the person who helped him the most. ( Although Dumbledore may have been pleading for Snape to not blow his cover. Dumbledore seemed to know he was going to die anyway. ) From now on, anyone who says that Snape should go to hell or something along those lines will be directed here.
Yeah. Feel free to tear that apart if you want. xD |
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Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:31 am
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Ernie Yeah, he killed Dumbles. So what? That's like saying, "Yeah, he killed the presendent, so what?" Ernie What is really pissing me off is that PEOPLE ARE IGNORING THIS. No. Actually, this has always been a big point in my argument that Snape's a bad guy. Ernie Narcissa was worried: she knew Draco would not be able to do it. Voldemort threatened Draco and his parents with death if Draco did not follow his orders. So, "Cissy", as Bellatrix "Bella" calls her sister, went to Severus, since he was Draco's favorite and closest teacher. He Unbreakable-y Vow-ed to watch over Draco, no matter what, and to fulfill Draco's duties if need be. Mhm. But my problem has always been that he made the Unbreakable Vow, without even trying to find another way out. Ernie Okay people, think about it. Dumbledore would've died anyway, just at the hands of some other DE and the Malfoys AND Snape would've died. So, what's better, one person who was going to die anyway or five people, four of which would've had the chance to survive? Saying that Dumbledore would have died anyway is simply an assumption. Snape could have brought backup. He obviously knew what was going on. He could have brought other people to fight off the DEs and rescue Dumbledore. Yes, he would have died, but (not to sound heartless here) that would be his own fault. He shouldn't have made the vow in the first place. Ernie Plus, Dumbledore told Harry that he ( Dumbledore ) valued Harry's life above his own ( of course, this could be because Harry is the only one who can defeat Voldemort; although Dumbledore seems to have shown this same affection to any youth ). Snape may have felt that Dumbledore would've preferred Malfoy and his mother to live, even if it meant he himself died. Dumbledore was well on his way to saving both Draco and Cissy. But then he got interrupted. Ernie Not to mention that Dumbledore knew all along what Draco was up to, and didn't interfere because he didn't want to accidentely get Draco killed by Voldemort. Maybe he didn't know what he was going to be stuck in a position where he had no wand and was too weak to move. =O Ernie Dumbledore seemed to know he was going to die anyway. ) I disagree. I think that if Dumbledore knew that he was just going to die anyway, he wouldn't be trying to get Draco not to kill him |
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:50 pm
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[Fredrick] Ernie Yeah, he killed Dumbles. So what? That's like saying, "Yeah, he killed the presendent, so what?"
Quite frankly...no, I'm not going to say it. xD *is not a fan of our president*
What's your point? My point is that one act isn't enough to go on to assume Snape's moral affiliations.
Quote: Ernie What is really pissing me off is that PEOPLE ARE IGNORING THIS. No. Actually, this has always been a big point in my argument that Snape's a bad guy.
I wrote that July 16, when people who had just read it through were forgetting about that UV, and acting as if Snape did it out of pure cold-blood and evilness, without considering that he was bound by a promise. :Sweat:
Quote: Ernie Narcissa was worried: she knew Draco would not be able to do it. Voldemort threatened Draco and his parents with death if Draco did not follow his orders. So, "Cissy", as Bellatrix "Bella" calls her sister, went to Severus, since he was Draco's favorite and closest teacher. He Unbreakable-y Vow-ed to watch over Draco, no matter what, and to fulfill Draco's duties if need be. Mhm. But my problem has always been that he made the Unbreakable Vow, without even trying to find another way out.
But how would he find a way out of it? He was sort of stuck in the moment, if you will. He couldn't say to the sisters, "Just wait here for a moment while I consider my options".
I see what you mean. However, how can you expect him to find a way out of it? What was he supposed to do?
Quote: Ernie Okay people, think about it. Dumbledore would've died anyway, just at the hands of some other DE and the Malfoys AND Snape would've died. So, what's better, one person who was going to die anyway or five people, four of which would've had the chance to survive? Saying that Dumbledore would have died anyway is simply an assumption.
Considering the situation? Not really. Dumbledore was weak, wandless and cornered at the top of a tower. Draco had cornered him, and was accompanied by several DEs. Even if Snape and Draco had refused to kill him, the other DEs wouldn't have hesitated to.
Say Dumbledore survived the tower. That potion could have killed him as well.
Quote: Snape could have brought backup. He obviously knew what was going on. He could have brought other people to fight off the DEs and rescue Dumbledore.
Who else from the Order could Snape have summoned? Flitwick was knocked out; McGonagall, Lupin, Tonks and Bill were already there.
Also, where would he get that kind of time? Dumbledore was already cornered at the top of the tower; even if Draco had refused to kill him, there were already many DEs who were impatient to kill him.
Quote: Yes, he would have died, but (not to sound heartless here) that would be his own fault. He shouldn't have made the vow in the first place.
1. Again, what do you propose he should have done instead of make the vow? It was either a) make the vow, or b) don't make the vow. If he had chosen B, Bellatrix would have questioned him, called him a coward. She was already suspicious of him.
2. For all we know, Snape *could* have not wanted to kill Dumbledore--we are know in the realm of speculation here, however.
Also, Snape was their only real spy. Dumbledore certainly valued that, so it's not like Dumbledore was sacrificing himself for someone who was virtually worthless to the Order. [this is assuming that Snape *was* under Dumbles' orders, of course.]
Quote: Ernie Plus, Dumbledore told Harry that he ( Dumbledore ) valued Harry's life above his own ( of course, this could be because Harry is the only one who can defeat Voldemort; although Dumbledore seems to have shown this same affection to any youth ). Snape may have felt that Dumbledore would've preferred Malfoy and his mother to live, even if it meant he himself died. Dumbledore was well on his way to saving both Draco and Cissy. But then he got interrupted.
Proof?
Quote: Ernie Not to mention that Dumbledore knew all along what Draco was up to, and didn't interfere because he didn't want to accidentely get Draco killed by Voldemort. Maybe he didn't know what he was going to be stuck in a position where he had no wand and was too weak to move. =O
I mean WHEN he was weak and had no wand. Not prior to that.
Quote: Ernie Dumbledore seemed to know he was going to die anyway. ) I disagree. I think that if Dumbledore knew that he was just going to die anyway, he wouldn't be trying to get Draco not to kill him.
He knew Draco would not kill him. There was no convincing in it; he had already determined that Draco was not up to it. |
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Reply
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