An Introduction to Goth music and subculture

[Genica Pussywillow]

GilAskan

[Rosetta Stoned]

XxChild_Of _Goth4m_Bo0txX

*Cut for length*

[Isn't goth basically defined by the music/fashion, though?]
[If they don't wear the same things/listen to the samemusic, they're not part of the goth culture, they're just social rejects, which isn't necessarily the same thing.]

[Also, you say that goths are just social rejects, but then why would they necessarily have a set sense of humour?]
[And, then you continued to mention the music style although you said it wasn't to do with the music in the first place.]
[This seems a little contradictory and misleading :S]

The definition of "goth" is largely disputed. There's no solid, widely accepted defintion.

Some people say "It's all about the music: a goth is a fan of goth rock and a member of the goth-rock music scene".

Others say "It's not at all about the music, but it's personality and point of view".

Some will say "________ is the single defining factor of being a goth". Others will say "Being goth is a combination of many things".

So it's really up to you as to what you think goth is. I personally believe:

Goth (n.): a member or supporter of the goth culture. Goths tend to be intellectual, sensitive, and artistic, though, these are not required characteristics.

Goth Culture (n.): A culture which grew out of punk in the late 80's. The culture consists of multiple fashion styles, multiple genres of music (most notably goth rock), locales, slang, art, literature, and more.

Under my defintion, a goth doesn't have to have just one thing, but is a supporter or follower of several of the parts of the goth culture.

[But, since bands were the first to be called goth in terms of subculture, then music would be a main factor.]
[A lot of people sensitive and artistic, but you wouldn't necessarily refer to them as Goth. I'm sure some emos are like that, but they are refered to as emos and not goths.]
[You'd generally think of them as goth because they listen to the music and act like that.]

[Also, can't you just call it Goth music and not goth rock? Since rock is a different genre, calling all goth music goth-rock doesn't seem right.]  

[GilAskan]

[Rosetta Stoned]

GilAskan

[Rosetta Stoned]

XxChild_Of _Goth4m_Bo0txX

*Cut for length*

[Isn't goth basically defined by the music/fashion, though?]
[If they don't wear the same things/listen to the samemusic, they're not part of the goth culture, they're just social rejects, which isn't necessarily the same thing.]

[Also, you say that goths are just social rejects, but then why would they necessarily have a set sense of humour?]
[And, then you continued to mention the music style although you said it wasn't to do with the music in the first place.]
[This seems a little contradictory and misleading :S]

The definition of "goth" is largely disputed. There's no solid, widely accepted defintion.

Some people say "It's all about the music: a goth is a fan of goth rock and a member of the goth-rock music scene".

Others say "It's not at all about the music, but it's personality and point of view".

Some will say "________ is the single defining factor of being a goth". Others will say "Being goth is a combination of many things".

So it's really up to you as to what you think goth is. I personally believe:

Goth (n.): a member or supporter of the goth culture. Goths tend to be intellectual, sensitive, and artistic, though, these are not required characteristics.

Goth Culture (n.): A culture which grew out of punk in the late 80's. The culture consists of multiple fashion styles, multiple genres of music (most notably goth rock), locales, slang, art, literature, and more.

Under my defintion, a goth doesn't have to have just one thing, but is a supporter or follower of several of the parts of the goth culture.

[But, since bands were the first to be called goth in terms of subculture, then music would be a main factor.]
[A lot of people sensitive and artistic, but you wouldn't necessarily refer to them as Goth. I'm sure some emos are like that, but they are refered to as emos and not goths.]
[You'd generally think of them as goth because they listen to the music and act like that.]

[Also, can't you just call it Goth music and not goth rock? Since rock is a different genre, calling all goth music goth-rock doesn't seem right.]

1) "A lot of people sensitive and artistic, but you wouldn't necessarily refer to them as Goth." - Which is why I said "goths tend to be artistic" rather than "artists tend to be goths". I don't think being artistic makes you a goth, I was simply stating that many goths have an interest in art.

2) "since bands were the first to be called goth in terms of subculture, then music would be a main factor" - I would agree with that. I sometimes tread a bit more softly on that note while in this forum, as many people seem to get offended when I call a goth "a fan of goth-rock (or related genres) and supporter of their scenes", the definition I otherwise use.

3) "Also, can't you just call it Goth music and not goth rock?" - Goth-rock and goth music are two different things.

Goth music is a broad discriptor grouping multiple genres, including goth-rock, death-rock, dark-cabaret, darkwave, ethereal, and some others. Goth-music essentially refers to music related to the goth-culture, or related to goth-rock.

Goth-rock is it's own independent genre, referring to a single style of music. It's one of the styles under the "goth-music" umbrella. Goth-rock was the first of the goth-music genres, and possibly remains to be the largest. So, in this sense, goth-rock is goth music, but goth-music isn't essentially goth-rock. Understand?  

[Genica Pussywillow]

GilAskan

[Rosetta Stoned]

GilAskan

[Rosetta Stoned]

XxChild_Of _Goth4m_Bo0txX

*Cut for length*

[Isn't goth basically defined by the music/fashion, though?]
[If they don't wear the same things/listen to the samemusic, they're not part of the goth culture, they're just social rejects, which isn't necessarily the same thing.]

[Also, you say that goths are just social rejects, but then why would they necessarily have a set sense of humour?]
[And, then you continued to mention the music style although you said it wasn't to do with the music in the first place.]
[This seems a little contradictory and misleading :S]

The definition of "goth" is largely disputed. There's no solid, widely accepted defintion.

Some people say "It's all about the music: a goth is a fan of goth rock and a member of the goth-rock music scene".

Others say "It's not at all about the music, but it's personality and point of view".

Some will say "________ is the single defining factor of being a goth". Others will say "Being goth is a combination of many things".

So it's really up to you as to what you think goth is. I personally believe:

Goth (n.): a member or supporter of the goth culture. Goths tend to be intellectual, sensitive, and artistic, though, these are not required characteristics.

Goth Culture (n.): A culture which grew out of punk in the late 80's. The culture consists of multiple fashion styles, multiple genres of music (most notably goth rock), locales, slang, art, literature, and more.

Under my defintion, a goth doesn't have to have just one thing, but is a supporter or follower of several of the parts of the goth culture.

[But, since bands were the first to be called goth in terms of subculture, then music would be a main factor.]
[A lot of people sensitive and artistic, but you wouldn't necessarily refer to them as Goth. I'm sure some emos are like that, but they are refered to as emos and not goths.]
[You'd generally think of them as goth because they listen to the music and act like that.]

[Also, can't you just call it Goth music and not goth rock? Since rock is a different genre, calling all goth music goth-rock doesn't seem right.]

1) "A lot of people sensitive and artistic, but you wouldn't necessarily refer to them as Goth." - Which is why I said "goths tend to be artistic" rather than "artists tend to be goths". I don't think being artistic makes you a goth, I was simply stating that many goths have an interest in art.

2) "since bands were the first to be called goth in terms of subculture, then music would be a main factor" - I would agree with that. I sometimes tread a bit more softly on that note while in this forum, as many people seem to get offended when I call a goth "a fan of goth-rock (or related genres) and supporter of their scenes", the definition I otherwise use.

3) "Also, can't you just call it Goth music and not goth rock?" - Goth-rock and goth music are two different things.

Goth music is a broad discriptor grouping multiple genres, including goth-rock, death-rock, dark-cabaret, darkwave, ethereal, and some others. Goth-music essentially refers to music related to the goth-culture, or related to goth-rock.

Goth-rock is it's own independent genre, referring to a single style of music. It's one of the styles under the "goth-music" umbrella. Goth-rock was the first of the goth-music genres, and possibly remains to be the largest. So, in this sense, goth-rock is goth music, but goth-music isn't essentially goth-rock. Understand?

[1. oh yeah, I guess I didn't read it properly sweatdrop
[2. Yeh, I can see what you mean. Most people use the other definition]
[3. Right. I didn't know tht D:]
[Ah well, learn something new very day ^^]  

[GilAskan]

No problem. This thread is called "a lesson on goth-".  

[deep_emo_thoughts]

i thught thst marilyn manson was goth well he is kinda right  

[.+Melanthios+.]

deep_emo_thoughts

i thught thst marilyn manson was goth well he is kinda right

I'd more or less classify him as indutrial, hun. I really wish people would stop calling him goth.......

 

[-Resurrected Writer-]

.+Melanthios+.

deep_emo_thoughts

i thught thst marilyn manson was goth well he is kinda right

I'd more or less classify him as indutrial, hun. I really wish people would stop calling him goth.......

In fact, the real reason behind his stage persona is that he was always highly interested in the villains of stories (earlier in the century, Alice Cooper strove for a similar theme), which resulted in him adopting a sinister look for his band.
However, goth is hardly about the sinister; most of it is romanticized ideals - some are bleak and gloomy, others are joyous epiphanies (compare Bauhaus's "Hollow Hills" to Sex Gang Children's "Arms of Cicero")  

[bluerain202]

Dead Ed

.+Melanthios+.

deep_emo_thoughts

i thught thst marilyn manson was goth well he is kinda right

I'd more or less classify him as indutrial, hun. I really wish people would stop calling him goth.......

In fact, the real reason behind his stage persona is that he was always highly interested in the villains of stories (earlier in the century, Alice Cooper strove for a similar theme), which resulted in him adopting a sinister look for his band.
However, goth is hardly about the sinister; most of it is romanticized ideals - some are bleak and gloomy, others are joyous epiphanies (compare Bauhaus's "Hollow Hills" to Sex Gang Children's "Arms of Cicero")

I think he was purely "highly inspired" by glam and goth. He bites off of what is aesthetically interesting to him- the controversial aspect of it all. I remember once Manson said he was a fan of Christian Death as a kid and wrote a letter to Rozz once. When you think about it, his entire look seems very influenced by Rozz. And the early imagery of Christian Death- the questioning of Christianity Manson copied. Rozz's Jesus garb is reminscent of Manson's pope mockery. The "shock" or controversiality of subject Manson holds comes clearly from other sources. Manson's basic persona structure isn't original.
Of course, few artists are very orginal. Rozz too was clearly inspired by Bowie. Yet he gave androgyny and his persona a twist. Manson's twist? I'm not so sure I can find one. Perhaps narcissism, and self-absorbsion? Dunno.  

[Byrn_in_hel]

This ought to be stickied. (Hint hint)  

[GilAskan]

Sticky?

Not a bad idea I suppose, but for some reason, I've found that a lot of people ignore stickies.  

[Mettekka]

Isobel Bellamy

Bands that are NOT 'Goth' but mistaken as 'Goth'

Do I have to write this out? most people should have a basic over view by now..alright, basic rules of what's not goth:

screaming.
loud guitars.
uninsightful lyrics (read: insulting exes with cries of b***h! whore!, goth bands insult their exes with something along the lines of "my dear departed lover, rest in peace for I surely will now that I don't have to look upon your face" only better and more poetical than my ad-lib)
Did I mention screaming?

List of random bands/artists usually mistaken for Goth:

Marylin Mason - the main culprit of mistaken goth identity, mainly due to the "ain't nothing but a goth thing" stuff
Nine Inch Nails - and other Industrial bands
Cradle of Filth - just...no....
Slipknot - hell no
My Chemical Romance - plus any emo, emoesque, post-hardcore etcetc bands (not even going to try to categorise mcr, too many fights will ensue...)
Evanescence - just because the singer looks the part a goth band does not make
Lacuna Coil - Look at "Symphonic Black Metal" Amazing band, but again a no-no on the goth-o-meter
Opeth - and the survey says *big loud noise of doom* nope again I'm afraid
HIM - Nononono, too metally
Nightwish - SBM yet again, darn those gothy dressed people
Murderdolls - Industrials, cyber goths the lot of 'em

Whole load more but Isobel is tired, provide suggestions and I'll put them up with credits to the good thinkers in the guild.

You just made my day.  

[Isobel Bellamy]

It gets stickied so that people can get more blatantly mod-slapped when they make goth threads

ninja  

[EvFaerAshlynn]

Reason why Evanescence isn't goth - not just 'cause Amy looking the part does not define the band, but.......
Evanescence = Eggmercop.
This was decided a long time ago by a lovely land of Ev fans known as EvBoard. More than likely, if you asked Amy Lee what eggmercop is, she'll recognize the word. Tis a clever blend made up of all the genres people try to use to categorize this widely goth-mistaken band, because it's just to damn hard to stick 'em in one category, and people will jump down your throat if you try.

Eggmercop = Emo-goth-metal-rock-classical-pop.
Or if you want my more detailed acronym:
Emo-goth-girl-metal-ethereal-classical-opera-pop.

I know a lot of people who would just say "goth" because it's a lot less to remember. But yeah.
There we go. My part is done. Sorry guys, I had to. blaugh  

[Nero PsyKoTiX]

Murderdolls is glam metal/horror punk.
confused

 

[Isobel Bellamy]

Nero PsyKoTiX

Murderdolls is glam metal/horror punk.
confused

Isobel has basically given up on 'correct' categorisation of most bands. Music fans are generally too obsessed with making a bad acceptabe to them by giving a band a certain category they deem good enough for them

The only problem arises when multiple people do this, with differing levels of music prejudices.... thus we get:

EvFaerAshlynn

Reason why Evanescence isn't goth - not just 'cause Amy looking the part does not define the band, but.......
Evanescence = Eggmercop.
This was decided a long time ago by a lovely land of Ev fans known as EvBoard. More than likely, if you asked Amy Lee what eggmercop is, she'll recognize the word. Tis a clever blend made up of all the genres people try to use to categorize this widely goth-mistaken band, because it's just to damn hard to stick 'em in one category, and people will jump down your throat if you try.

Eggmercop = Emo-goth-metal-rock-classical-pop.
Or if you want my more detailed acronym:
Emo-goth-girl-metal-ethereal-classical-opera-pop.

I know a lot of people who would just say "goth" because it's a lot less to remember. But yeah.

(lmfao)