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 Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:44 pm
The_Last_Avenger LanceCalvis The_Last_Avenger dronze It's a simple Pavlovian response, Lance. I'm not saying that these people are evil, selfish bastards, simply that there is an inherant psychological connection between the actions people take and the percieved outcome. Like I said, If it wasn't going to make you feel any better about yourself, would you honestly go out of your way to do something for your fellow human being? The answer here is a pure and simple "No", and here's why... Humans, being the pack animals that we are, do things for one of a few simple reasons: Perception of survival/self defence Perception of social status Perception of improved well-being Perception of self gratification These 4 perceptions make up a common reasoning for everything we do, from the basic ideas of survival to anything our higher brains are capable of. These things are the reason why marketing works, as well as what we build almost all of our rationalizations for our actions around. There is nothing wrong with this, it is how we, as a species, are wired. The actual after-effects and consequences of our actions may differ from the percieved reasons, which is where bitterness and resentment come in, but it is all the same general set of motivating factors that pervades every last voulentary action we take.... taek a day and think about everything you do... you'll find that I'm absolutely right... You are wrong dronze. People can be selfless. I know plenty of people who have gone out of their way to help others and denied any form of payment. A friend of mine is a member of a church that volunteers to help out in place that serves food for the poor. My friend goes twice a month to help and I have started to do the same thing. There is no reward fo rthis at all. All we have gotten out of it is a thank yuo from those who run the place. If you say that we do this for ourselves, then you are blind dronze. We do this because we wish to help others. Perception of improved well-being If by improved well-being you mean those I help, then alright. But if it is meant as improved well-being of myself, then that is dead wrong. That's exactly what I mean. If not just on a subconscious level part of the reason for doing what you do is exactly that. It's not a bad thing, just a fact.
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Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:54 pm
LanceCalvis The_Last_Avenger LanceCalvis The_Last_Avenger dronze It's a simple Pavlovian response, Lance. I'm not saying that these people are evil, selfish bastards, simply that there is an inherant psychological connection between the actions people take and the percieved outcome. Like I said, If it wasn't going to make you feel any better about yourself, would you honestly go out of your way to do something for your fellow human being? The answer here is a pure and simple "No", and here's why... Humans, being the pack animals that we are, do things for one of a few simple reasons: Perception of survival/self defence Perception of social status Perception of improved well-being Perception of self gratification These 4 perceptions make up a common reasoning for everything we do, from the basic ideas of survival to anything our higher brains are capable of. These things are the reason why marketing works, as well as what we build almost all of our rationalizations for our actions around. There is nothing wrong with this, it is how we, as a species, are wired. The actual after-effects and consequences of our actions may differ from the percieved reasons, which is where bitterness and resentment come in, but it is all the same general set of motivating factors that pervades every last voulentary action we take.... taek a day and think about everything you do... you'll find that I'm absolutely right... You are wrong dronze. People can be selfless. I know plenty of people who have gone out of their way to help others and denied any form of payment. A friend of mine is a member of a church that volunteers to help out in place that serves food for the poor. My friend goes twice a month to help and I have started to do the same thing. There is no reward fo rthis at all. All we have gotten out of it is a thank yuo from those who run the place. If you say that we do this for ourselves, then you are blind dronze. We do this because we wish to help others. Perception of improved well-being If by improved well-being you mean those I help, then alright. But if it is meant as improved well-being of myself, then that is dead wrong. That's exactly what I mean. If not just on a subconscious level part of the reason for doing what you do is exactly that. It's not a bad thing, just a fact. well dronze is still wrong. It does not really make me feel better...I only do it for the unfortunate. It is still a selfless act and that is my whole point.
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Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:00 pm
The_Last_Avenger LanceCalvis The_Last_Avenger LanceCalvis The_Last_Avenger dronze It's a simple Pavlovian response, Lance. I'm not saying that these people are evil, selfish bastards, simply that there is an inherant psychological connection between the actions people take and the percieved outcome. Like I said, If it wasn't going to make you feel any better about yourself, would you honestly go out of your way to do something for your fellow human being? The answer here is a pure and simple "No", and here's why... Humans, being the pack animals that we are, do things for one of a few simple reasons: Perception of survival/self defence Perception of social status Perception of improved well-being Perception of self gratification These 4 perceptions make up a common reasoning for everything we do, from the basic ideas of survival to anything our higher brains are capable of. These things are the reason why marketing works, as well as what we build almost all of our rationalizations for our actions around. There is nothing wrong with this, it is how we, as a species, are wired. The actual after-effects and consequences of our actions may differ from the percieved reasons, which is where bitterness and resentment come in, but it is all the same general set of motivating factors that pervades every last voulentary action we take.... taek a day and think about everything you do... you'll find that I'm absolutely right... You are wrong dronze. People can be selfless. I know plenty of people who have gone out of their way to help others and denied any form of payment. A friend of mine is a member of a church that volunteers to help out in place that serves food for the poor. My friend goes twice a month to help and I have started to do the same thing. There is no reward fo rthis at all. All we have gotten out of it is a thank yuo from those who run the place. If you say that we do this for ourselves, then you are blind dronze. We do this because we wish to help others. Perception of improved well-being If by improved well-being you mean those I help, then alright. But if it is meant as improved well-being of myself, then that is dead wrong. That's exactly what I mean. If not just on a subconscious level part of the reason for doing what you do is exactly that. It's not a bad thing, just a fact. well dronze is still wrong. It does not really make me feel better...I only do it for the unfortunate. It is still a selfless act and that is my whole point. It's possible just improbable. I believe that it is possible for a person to perform a selfless act. But in my eyes an emotionally driven plea isn't proof of such an action.
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Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:04 pm
LanceCalvis The_Last_Avenger LanceCalvis The_Last_Avenger LanceCalvis Perception of improved well-being If by improved well-being you mean those I help, then alright. But if it is meant as improved well-being of myself, then that is dead wrong. That's exactly what I mean. If not just on a subconscious level part of the reason for doing what you do is exactly that. It's not a bad thing, just a fact. well dronze is still wrong. It does not really make me feel better...I only do it for the unfortunate. It is still a selfless act and that is my whole point. It's possible just improbable. I believe that it is possible for a person to perform a selfless act. But in my eyes an emotionally driven plea isn't proof of such an action. You have a good point...It is very difficult to argue with you. We seem to agree on a lot of points, but disagree at some. Lets just drop the arguement, ok?"
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Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:06 pm
The_Last_Avenger LanceCalvis The_Last_Avenger LanceCalvis The_Last_Avenger LanceCalvis Perception of improved well-being If by improved well-being you mean those I help, then alright. But if it is meant as improved well-being of myself, then that is dead wrong. That's exactly what I mean. If not just on a subconscious level part of the reason for doing what you do is exactly that. It's not a bad thing, just a fact. well dronze is still wrong. It does not really make me feel better...I only do it for the unfortunate. It is still a selfless act and that is my whole point. It's possible just improbable. I believe that it is possible for a person to perform a selfless act. But in my eyes an emotionally driven plea isn't proof of such an action. You have a good point...It is very difficult to argue with you. We seem to agree on a lot of points, but disagree at some. Lets just drop the arguement, ok?" K, here's some gold for good measure. wink
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Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:11 pm
LanceCalvis The_Last_Avenger LanceCalvis The_Last_Avenger LanceCalvis That's exactly what I mean. If not just on a subconscious level part of the reason for doing what you do is exactly that. It's not a bad thing, just a fact. well dronze is still wrong. It does not really make me feel better...I only do it for the unfortunate. It is still a selfless act and that is my whole point. It's possible just improbable. I believe that it is possible for a person to perform a selfless act. But in my eyes an emotionally driven plea isn't proof of such an action. You have a good point...It is very difficult to argue with you. We seem to agree on a lot of points, but disagree at some. Lets just drop the arguement, ok?" K, here's some gold for good measure. wink [/quote wow...you are too kind lance. thank you.
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Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:24 pm
The_Last_Avenger LanceCalvis The_Last_Avenger LanceCalvis The_Last_Avenger dronze It's a simple Pavlovian response, Lance. I'm not saying that these people are evil, selfish bastards, simply that there is an inherant psychological connection between the actions people take and the percieved outcome. Like I said, If it wasn't going to make you feel any better about yourself, would you honestly go out of your way to do something for your fellow human being? The answer here is a pure and simple "No", and here's why... Humans, being the pack animals that we are, do things for one of a few simple reasons: Perception of survival/self defence Perception of social status Perception of improved well-being Perception of self gratification These 4 perceptions make up a common reasoning for everything we do, from the basic ideas of survival to anything our higher brains are capable of. These things are the reason why marketing works, as well as what we build almost all of our rationalizations for our actions around. There is nothing wrong with this, it is how we, as a species, are wired. The actual after-effects and consequences of our actions may differ from the percieved reasons, which is where bitterness and resentment come in, but it is all the same general set of motivating factors that pervades every last voulentary action we take.... taek a day and think about everything you do... you'll find that I'm absolutely right... You are wrong dronze. People can be selfless. I know plenty of people who have gone out of their way to help others and denied any form of payment. A friend of mine is a member of a church that volunteers to help out in place that serves food for the poor. My friend goes twice a month to help and I have started to do the same thing. There is no reward fo rthis at all. All we have gotten out of it is a thank yuo from those who run the place. If you say that we do this for ourselves, then you are blind dronze. We do this because we wish to help others. Perception of improved well-being If by improved well-being you mean those I help, then alright. But if it is meant as improved well-being of myself, then that is dead wrong. That's exactly what I mean. If not just on a subconscious level part of the reason for doing what you do is exactly that. It's not a bad thing, just a fact. well dronze is still wrong. It does not really make me feel better...I only do it for the unfortunate. It is still a selfless act and that is my whole point. If it were truly a selfless act, you would not be attempting to garner recognition for the acts by simply mentioning them while trying to prove a point and hold it over somebody's head when it becomes convienient, giving you that percieved edge of social status by establishing yourself as an intellectual or social/moral alpha.... that's flaw number 1 in your reasoning as well as your counterpoint. Flaw number 2 in your reasoning is the fact that you go to a soup kitchen, or a similar service, and you get thanked for the work. This falls under self gratification and a perception of a higher social standing, as you are voulentarily doing this community service, and being thanked for it. You are recieving recognition for the act, pure and simple. I have not stated that this is a bad thing, nor have I pointed out that it is your ONLY driving factor for doing what you do, and yet, you insist on getting defensive about your voulenteer work. Flaw number 3, pointed out in the fact that you could not actually serve a valid counterpoint to any of my arguments, and yet still want to say that my viewpoint, which comes from a solid breakdown of observed human social behaviors, not idealistic and utterly deluded beliefs and a defensive standpoint of one's own actions, is WRONG without being able to support this statement is just inane. I don't care if you want to debate the point, but if you're going to, you'd best be bringing enough ammunition to back your cause. If you can't do this, then please, sit down, shut up, and read the debate... maybe you'll learn something. For anyone trying to step into any debate, if you don't want to look like a total moron or hypocrite, you do not have the luxury to simply have a self-referencing justification or simply say that "xyz opinion is wrong because I say so."... debates don't work like that. If you're going to put forth an opinion, you'd best have supporting points and counterpoints to back you up, unless, of course, you prefer being laughed at and having more holes chewed in your arguments than swiss cheese on a drill press, and then being dismissed as a completely ignorant dumbtard who is to be avoided or embarrassed each and every time you open your mouth or put your fingers anywhere near your keyboard. Sorry, avenger, but you're the one who said that my agument was wrong... and while Lance will let it go, you still have me to deal with. I do not take lightly to being told that I'm wrong when I know that I'm not. You can be ignorant all you like, but rest assured, if you think that kind of garbage will fly with me, trust me, it won't... and I WILL go to every convienient length to completely discredit every word you post on this guild that has to do with and debate I feel like getting involved in... and trust me, if your arguments are as flimsy in those as they are in here, it really won't take much.
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:09 am
....Damn.
Anyway, some of you may remember as Razagnia/Dalkian. I was at LoH for a couple months but then I left and I have now returned and is looking forward for dronze's rants. Any more rants, Dronze?
EDIT: Oh God. Dronze, tons of noobs are in Beach's topic. Can you get rid of them? D:
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:47 am
I SIS start helping there, but that was not what I was tlking about. I mentioned that my friend had helped there each month. (I know i said like twice a month...but i was wrong) And you are not always right dronze, and i still say that ou should just drop some things and not mention them because it is pointless. Your opinions are yours and mine are mine. Let us keep them that way.
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:43 am
The_Last_Avenger I SIS start helping there, but that was not what I was tlking about. I mentioned that my friend had helped there each month. (I know i said like twice a month...but i was wrong) And you are not always right dronze, and i still say that ou should just drop some things and not mention them because it is pointless. Your opinions are yours and mine are mine. Let us keep them that way. Except my point isn't opinion, it's fact... and I know than I'm not always right, and I am completely willing to concede the point when i'm wrong. I know for a fact that I am correct here. If I am clueless about a topic, then I don't give my input, and I won't join the debate. However, for you to come forward and say flat out that I'm wrong, and not actually have any solid evidence to back it up despite the fact that you are willfully taking part in the debate at hand. Either face facts and admit defeat, or give me some kind of evidence to support your side of the argument... Unless you can't, which is why you pressed the issue to drop it in the first place. You're the one who said that I'm wrong here. If I am, then so be it, but you'd better have some solid proof that I am, and you'd best present it as something more than personal anecdotes that you refuse to actually qualify through the criteria presented with the fear that you'd realize that you were wrong.
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:44 pm
just drop it dronze. the arguement is done. if you simply rely on "facts" to judge things, then I have no more to say to you.
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Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:12 pm
I agree with Avenger. Frankly, who cares if you bring up all of these examples of people having these reasons for their benevolence. You seem to want to discourage it! That's the true awfulness of the human being. Too cynical to appreciate attempts at kindness. b
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:30 am
Bellabie I agree with Avenger. Frankly, who cares if you bring up all of these examples of people having these reasons for their benevolence. You seem to want to discourage it! That's the true awfulness of the human being. Too cynical to appreciate attempts at kindness. b It's complex clarification of the facts. At no point in those five paragraphs or so did I here anything to suggest Dronze is against attempts at kindness. He even repeated a number of times that it isn't necessarily a bad thing. Disagreeing with an already proven fact just because you don't like that you are wrong is unhealthy. And that is exactly what Avenger is doing in this situation. I don't like seeing people fret when there is no need to.
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:48 am
LanceCalvis Bellabie I agree with Avenger. Frankly, who cares if you bring up all of these examples of people having these reasons for their benevolence. You seem to want to discourage it! That's the true awfulness of the human being. Too cynical to appreciate attempts at kindness. b It's complex clarification of the facts. At no point in those five paragraphs or so did I here anything to suggest Dronze is against attempts at kindness. He even repeated a number of times that it isn't necessarily a bad thing. Disagreeing with an already proven fact just because you don't like that you are wrong is unhealthy. And that is exactly what Avenger is doing in this situation. I don't like seeing people fret when there is no need to. Although I do not wish to clutter Master Dronze's topic, I do not think that at any point we proved anything to be fact. Presented was only one side. I did not say that he stated anything that said it was bad, I said it seemed to say such. Is not trivializing something an act of discouragement? Dronze makes assumptions in saying that Avenger is thanked for what he does and attacks him when personal experience is his citation, despite the fact that it is merely an example. He is not asking people to pay him any respects, he is merely using this for justification of his point. In regards to Dronze's statement of others looking to "step into" a debate, I must make note that his first contention may be turned and extended to say that, in fact, by wishing these things, you are in fact, furthering a benefit to society by your survival and well being. If you extend in this manner, I would agree, these four things are not bad, at all. My rambling on the topic. I suppose my main trouble here is that it is decided that what Dronze stated was fact although he didn't actually present any evidence, either. I'm not going to suggest that I did because I am awful and too lazy to go back and cite the articles. I don't think that anything here was cleared as fact, so I think that the way that members attacked one-another was unfair, that is all. Thank you for clarifying, LanceCalvis. b
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Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:10 pm
wow...well said bella. I have just 1 question. would it not be considered a selfless act if there is a killer and someone throws themselves in the line of fire to save another? (just a thought...not really deeply thought about.)
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