This is a stupid question but I'm going to ask anyway thread

[rmcdra]

What is an ableist(sp)?  

[TeaDidikai]

rmcdra

What is an ableist(sp)?

Someone who indulges privilege associated with " proper health".

In the same way that indulging privilege associated with race generates racism, privilege associated with being " in good health"- free of mental, emotional or physical issues generates attitudes that degrade others.

Like more subtle forms of racism, ableism is difficult to understand because it's so deeply ingrained and common.

For me, it's even harder to explore because many of the linguistics linked to ableism have valid medical applications that are confused with privilege based behavior.  

[Recursive Paradox]

TeaDidikai

For me, it's even harder to explore because many of the linguistics linked to ableism have valid medical applications that are confused with privilege based behavior.

I would argue that many of the ableist linguistics being common in the medical applications in question is actually a sign of ableism within the medical field itself, something that a great deal of evidence already exists for in the form of body policing, pathologization, denial of autonomy and self determination by doctors and cure-ism for states that are pathologized and medicalized aspects of a person that they don't wish to change or remove (like what happens very often with autism).

So really, I would argue that the medical applications are not all valid and that a case by case basis to determine if the application is arising from ableism in the medical field or not is required to determine that.

This also applies to fat phobia and cissexism, neither of which are generally absorbed into the ableism envelope.  

[TeaDidikai]

Recursive Paradox

I would argue that many of the ableist linguistics being common in the medical applications in question is actually a sign of ableism within the medical field itself, something that a great deal of evidence already exists for in the form of body policing, pathologization, denial of autonomy and self determination by doctors and cure-ism for states that are pathologized and medicalized aspects of a person that they don't wish to change or remove (like what happens very often with autism).

I'd say that a fair chunk of it also stems from popular corruption of clinical terms and misapplication.

Quote:

So really, I would argue that the medical applications are not all valid and that a case by case basis to determine if the application is arising from ableism in the medical field or not is required to determine that.

I think that's a fair and agreeable observation.

My problem largely comes in when people confuse observation with an insult because of the stigma that is associated with such things.  

[rmcdra]

Okay what's this I'm hearing about sons taking a "swing" at their dad is part of healthy development? If this is true is there a daughter-mother analog?  

[Fiddlers Green]

How is ableism different from meritocracy?  

[maenad nuri]

Fiddlers Green

How is ableism different from meritocracy?

Because you aren't given a level playing field to start with?  

[TeaDidikai]

And ingrained social behaviors perpetuate barrier-attitudes that are above and beyond any conditions that are addressed.  

[Fiddlers Green]

maenad nuri

Fiddlers Green

How is ableism different from meritocracy?

Because you aren't given a level playing field to start with?

To my understanding, that is a similarity rather than a difference. confused  

[TeaDidikai]

Fiddlers Green

maenad nuri

Fiddlers Green

How is ableism different from meritocracy?

Because you aren't given a level playing field to start with?

To my understanding, that is a similarity rather than a difference. confused

The attitude is directed at prejudices that are ingrained about what living with certain conditions are like, not the actual merits of the individuals involved.

Say someone has a disorder wherein they experience physical pain and depression if they come into contact with a certain substance.

Doesn't matter that they are amongst the top 10th percentile in their field, and that their symptoms can be managed though diet- people don't hire them because they don't want the potential that their issue might be inconvenient.  

[Fiddlers Green]

TeaDidikai

The attitude is directed at prejudices that are ingrained about what living with certain conditions are like, not the actual merits of the individuals involved.

Say someone has a disorder wherein they experience physical pain and depression if they come into contact with a certain substance.

Doesn't matter that they are amongst the top 10th percentile in their field, and that their symptoms can be managed though diet- people don't hire them because they don't want the potential that their issue might be inconvenient.

Ok, think I gotcha.
So, ableism disregards the person for the issue that other's them, without regard for their capacities in other areas?  

[TeaDidikai]

Fiddlers Green

Ok, think I gotcha.
So, ableism disregards the person for the issue that other's them, without regard for their capacities in other areas?

Yep. Or even in the area being addressed. That's what some of these laws are intended to address with the Americans with Disabilities Act and the like.  

[Synnthetika]

Robin Artisson.

Okay, so I always get confused about Robin Artisson. Is he/his books a good resource? Are they a bad resource?

Background:
TheCrookedHeath.org (com, net?) was a website I went to when I was first interested in Witchcraft. I also had the idea that "Traditional=More Valid," but that's stopped. All the same, my motivation for going was because I wanted to, essentially, be cooler and awesomer than all teh other witches because I'd heard that Silver RavingWolf was retarded. Anyway, the owner of TheCrookedHeath.org got into a internet fight with Robin Artisson. I don't remember why, this was like 2-4 years ago, but I remember it ended with the owner of CrookedHeath saying that Artisson was basically a fraud, may have stolen ideas(?) and other things about luring people in that may or may not have had sexual connotation. Like I said, I don't remember, I just remember reading some Live Journal entries and going "What's happening? I'm confused. I thought you guys were friends." TheCrookedHeath went down and, as far as I know, has been down ever since.

Since then I have always wondered what happened and if Robin Artisson was reliable. I have never been able to find out, so I saw his name in another thread and thought: what better way to ask than here?  

[whiporwill-o]

are the 'universal' meanings for rocks and crystals, colors, scents, and plants really accurate, or is it more of a personal thing?

who really decided what means what? i mean, i own several books with the coorespondenses in them and most of them are very very similar with only a few different meanings.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Sorry for the late reply, I forgot about this post until the thread came up again.

TeaDidikai

I'd say that a fair chunk of it also stems from popular corruption of clinical terms and misapplication.

A fair chunk, certainly. Still, the abhorrent behavior of many doctors, backed by their medical employers, towards people with disabilities, trans folk and fat folk gives me the impression that the portion of the medical field that is rotted from the core out (from operating on concepts rooted in ableism, transphobia and fatphobia) is a large one. Perhaps even a mild majority. At the very least, it is a large enough amount of serious credibility reduction that medical sources can't really be taken without strong analysis as an objective source on such topics.

Which makes depending on the source of a word or concept (the source being the medical field) a risky move unless you've looked really really in depth into the roots of the word, its concepts and how that relates to the -ism in question (something that is tough to do if one has privilege on one of the axes in question). That's why I tend to counsel against making observations based on medical concepts with unthinking trust on things like the health of fat people, which trans people are actually trans or not and on mental illness and whether things like Autism should be treated.

With autism especially, the medical field's views are growing off of some really nasty seeds of eliminationism and NT-centrism.

Quote:

I think that's a fair and agreeable observation.

Thank you.

Quote:

My problem largely comes in when people confuse observation with an insult because of the stigma that is associated with such things.

That's certainly something that is a bit... off. Instead of that, a complaint that should be taken more seriously about observations is whether that observation is based on concepts which are, in and of themselves, rooted in the -ism's in question.

And certainly a person's (reasonably) objective observations are not in the least bit immune to being built on ableist (for instance) roots, whether they are based on medical concepts or not.

Of course the water gets so muddied by people conflating "personally offensive and stigmatizing" and "propping up and enabling systemic oppression by continuing the use of concepts that are built on oppressive and -ism sourced reasoning as their roots". A lot of times, activists will say the former about something when they mean the latter.

An attempt to appeal to people's empathy I suppose, but it's really inaccurate. Offense is not the issue. Boosting these systems are.