This is a stupid question but I'm going to ask anyway thread

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Bastemhet

That makes sense. But then can UPG or mystical experiences then be excluded from debate? Or are nonfalsifiable claims inherently nondebatable? Just curious.

You can debate UPG. Hell, I encourage it. I just tend to offer more external sources because, well, I know the ins and outs of the context for my UPG. I tend to not offer it as an argument because I don't want people misunderstanding me and thus make assumptions and errors.

'Nother question for curiosity: I know your trad's standards of verity are not universal, but would you mind sharing some of it for knowledge's sake? I don't necessarily have any for my own from a tradition standpoint, but as a reconstructionist, I tend to weigh my experience with historical evidence, and if the former doesn't completely rebel against the latter, I'm not inclined to really doubt it any further.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Namikikyo

The way some Neo Pagans talked about them, I thought they may be these super good guardian elemental things. I was lied to, apparently.

I wouldn't say you were lied to. More that you were given a very small portion of the truth, a dangerously small portion.

Good things can come around from using magic. But so can very bad things. It's all about knowing what you're messing with.

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What exactly have these creatures done that make them so bad? O_O

A host of unfortunate things. Killing. Injury of mind, body and spirit (which is actually a host of things, depending on tradition). Harming others. Spiritual rape. Possession. Etc etc. Certain traditions have harsher entities mentioned than others, so the plethora of bad things that could happen is extraordinarily high.

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Also, I agree that magic attracts unwanted things. But isn't that the price for doing something of that nature? And magic can also attract good, right? With the right protection and personal protocols for certian situations, that price can be avoided?

Depends on the tradition. In Etherism you're usually welcoming a s**t storm if you hook up with anything you don't have a good relationship with already (it's a mild catch 22 really, in order to establish a relationship you gotta take the risk you'll get brutally mauled). Also don't make promises you can't keep to an Essence or especially an Aspect. Broken Oaths in a world where spiritual and energy barter reigns supreme means even the "good" things you've attracted will come for your head.

I have no clue if past broken oaths would be a problem. So far my old broken oath to YHVH hasn't posed any issues with Aspects or Essences (maybe the ones I've worked with just don't like deities?). But I theorize if you break an Oath with an allied Essence or Aspect, its allies will ******** you up in every way imaginable (I know that's how it works in the philosophy anyways). And I doubt a persistent chronic oathbreaker will get the time of day.  

[TeaDidikai]

Bastemhet

'Nother question for curiosity: I know your trad's standards of verity are not universal, but would you mind sharing some of it for knowledge's sake?

Wouldn't mind, but don't really know where to begin.
I get up in the morning and wash, then say my prayers before I greet my husband.
I have special blankets and towels during certain times of the month. ~shrugs~
I wash my face every time I use the restroom, and since I hate putting on makeup, I tend not to wear it because I don't want to have to reapply.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Bastemhet

'Nother question for curiosity: I know your trad's standards of verity are not universal, but would you mind sharing some of it for knowledge's sake?

Wouldn't mind, but don't really know where to begin.
I get up in the morning and wash, then say my prayers before I greet my husband.
I have special blankets and towels during certain times of the month. ~shrugs~
I wash my face every time I use the restroom, and since I hate putting on makeup, I tend not to wear it because I don't want to have to reapply.

Wait...did you read verity as purity?  

[TeaDidikai]

Bastemhet

Wait...did you read verity as purity?

Dyslexia Pwnage. Yep.
Sorry about that.
Are you looking for me to give examples as to how I have tested UPG?  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Bastemhet

Wait...did you read verity as purity?

Dyslexia Pwnage. Yep.
Sorry about that.
Are you looking for me to give examples as to how I have tested UPG?

No prob, I do that kind of thing all the time, and I don't have a good excuse. And yes, that would be most helpful. 3nodding

I'm with you on the makeup thing, btw. xp Even though I really like how it looks when I do use it.  

[Namikikyo]

TeaDidikai

Namikikyo

I remember someone else telling me that too, which is why I said shamanic practices. Is it bad to say that too? Even when describing something?

I tend to see it as cultural misappropriation myself.

I understand. Would there be a better way at describing something like that?

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But I know that it is an artform by with the user can manipulate, people, objects, energies and the outcome of an event by supernatural means for a desired result.

And where did you find that definition?

I read it in books and websites. I had no objections to it, so I thought this was the best answer.

I have a more personal answer, but it's very jumbled and more of a theory. If you'd like to hear that one, I can tell you. But I thinks it's more of a reason how and why magic is possible.

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What I meant was that if magic attracted an unwanted being then based on your belief of protection, banishing, cleansing, and such of the like, you could do away with the thing or at least keep it at bay long enough until you can find a better way, if not have to deal with it at all.

Not to say you can do whatever you'd like and get away with it, No. Without knowledge and practice one may not know how to be so careful, protected and so able find ways to kindly escape such atrocities.

I'm afraid I'm not making much sense. I'm trying to piece all my thoughts together, but it seems this quilt it looking more like a bad halloween costume. xD

Okay. Let's start by refining it.

What about magic would you say catches attention?

This is going to sound so silly and I've never shared these ideas with anyone so I'm not sure how people will react to it. sweatdrop

Magic can be possible by a directed emotion, a very focused thought and sometimes even the aid of willing beings. This action will pull and gather energy ((or whatever you want to call it)) either inside you or around you, if not add more. All this energy is like someone screaming in a room of blind zombies or turning a lighthouse on in a thick fog. Things gravitate towards this beacon for various reasons, weither it be because they're just curious or they want the energy for themselves.  

[aoijea23487]

Is there a part in the Annals where the gods swear the oath not to associate with other people? Can I get a citation for this?  

[Namikikyo]

Recursive Paradox

Namikikyo

The way some Neo Pagans talked about them, I thought they may be these super good guardian elemental things. I was lied to, apparently.

I wouldn't say you were lied to. More that you were given a very small portion of the truth, a dangerously small portion.

Why is it always the good "love and light" truths that are often the most dangerous?

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Good things can come around from using magic. But so can very bad things. It's all about knowing what you're messing with.

Agreed.

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What exactly have these creatures done that make them so bad? O_O

A host of unfortunate things. Killing. Injury of mind, body and spirit (which is actually a host of things, depending on tradition). Harming others. Spiritual rape. Possession. Etc etc. Certain traditions have harsher entities mentioned than others, so the plethora of bad things that could happen is extraordinarily high.

Oh dear. sweatdrop

What exactly is spiritual rape? If you don't mind me asking, that is.

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Also, I agree that magic attracts unwanted things. But isn't that the price for doing something of that nature? And magic can also attract good, right? With the right protection and personal protocols for certian situations, that price can be avoided?

Depends on the tradition. In Etherism you're usually welcoming a s**t storm if you hook up with anything you don't have a good relationship with already (it's a mild catch 22 really, in order to establish a relationship you gotta take the risk you'll get brutally mauled). Also don't make promises you can't keep to an Essence or especially an Aspect. Broken Oaths in a world where spiritual and energy barter reigns supreme means even the "good" things you've attracted will come for your head.

I have no clue if past broken oaths would be a problem. So far my old broken oath to YHVH hasn't posed any issues with Aspects or Essences (maybe the ones I've worked with just don't like deities?). But I theorize if you break an Oath with an allied Essence or Aspect, its allies will ******** you up in every way imaginable (I know that's how it works in the philosophy anyways). And I doubt a persistent chronic oathbreaker will get the time of day.

That's extremely interesting, Recursive Paradox. More interesting then I'd like it to be, actually.

I enjoy reading what you have to say and it oftens give me something to ponder about. Your pathways thread is simply amazing. It baffles me how you could create and discover something so dangerous, beautiful and mind-blowing.

Thank you for answering my questions. 3nodding  

[TeaDidikai]

Bastemhet

Even though I really like how it looks when I do use it.

Likewise.

The most memorable example is how I had been mispronouncing names in my teen years that ended up being corrected by people who actually speak our dialect. These were names that I hadn't heard growing up.

Some of the things I have seen, dreamed and the like, I try and alter, the check for an energetic resonance. Again, we're getting into a realm where English and context aren't communicating accurately.

The one that drew me closest to my name sakes had to do with me following instructions and it being confirmed through outcome.

Namikikyo

Would there be a better way at describing something like that?

Otherworld is what I usually use.

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But I know that it is an artform by with the user can manipulate, people, objects, energies and the outcome of an event by supernatural means for a desired result.

And where did you find that definition?

I read it in books and websites. I had no objections to it, so I thought this was the best answer. Okay.
Let's look at it. Is it strictly an art form?
Why use the word energies?
How does it manipulate people?
How does it manipulate objects?
What does supernatural mean?
What happens when you produce undesired results?

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I have a more personal answer, but it's very jumbled and more of a theory. If you'd like to hear that one, I can tell you. But I thinks it's more of a reason how and why magic is possible.

Fire away.

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This is going to sound so silly and I've never shared these ideas with anyone so I'm not sure how people will react to it. sweatdrop

You're exploring. If you do it honestly, I doubt you will find anything but helpful insight.

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Magic can be possible by a directed emotion, a very focused thought and sometimes even the aid of willing beings. This action will pull and gather energy ((or whatever you want to call it)) either inside you or around you, if not add more. All this energy is like someone screaming in a room of blind zombies or turning a lighthouse on in a thick fog. Things gravitate towards this beacon for various reasons, weither it be because they're just curious or they want the energy for themselves.

Interesting, let's hold on to this until we examine other concepts, like what magic is.

Illiezeulette

Is there a part in the Annals where the gods swear the oath not to associate with other people? Can I get a citation for this?

The oath is supposed to be in the Book of Invasions, after the invasion by the Sons of Mil.
I'm still waiting for the passage itself from Cu.  

[Recursive Paradox]

Namikikyo

Why is it always the good "love and light" truths that are often the most dangerous?

Because people seek comfort and safety, while still attempting to develop the scary personal autonomy we all require. So many fluffies (and even quite a few non fluffies) will take dangerous scary things to establish their autonomy and then interlace it with happy things to make the world a little less horrifying. But what you don't know can still kill you. Blissful ignorance lasts right up until the moment the teeth dig into your flesh. It won't prevent that.

Then there's the entitlement mongers, who have been taught since a young age that the world loves them and that they are superbly special and nothing bad will happen as long as they think positive. And then they end up in the real world and instead of accepting the fact that hey, that's a load of bullshit, they create fluffy delusions to protect themselves from the loss of their entitled speshulness.

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A host of unfortunate things. Killing. Injury of mind, body and spirit (which is actually a host of things, depending on tradition). Harming others. Spiritual rape. Possession. Etc etc. Certain traditions have harsher entities mentioned than others, so the plethora of bad things that could happen is extraordinarily high.

Oh dear. sweatdrop

What exactly is spiritual rape? If you don't mind me asking, that is.

Metaphysical violation of your inner realms, your energy, your spirit, so on and so forth. It could be forcibly entering another's mind to control it or view it to draining a person of their energy (psychic vampirism)

A host of other things of similar nature come under the heading of spiritual rape.

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Depends on the tradition. In Etherism you're usually welcoming a s**t storm if you hook up with anything you don't have a good relationship with already (it's a mild catch 22 really, in order to establish a relationship you gotta take the risk you'll get brutally mauled). Also don't make promises you can't keep to an Essence or especially an Aspect. Broken Oaths in a world where spiritual and energy barter reigns supreme means even the "good" things you've attracted will come for your head.

I have no clue if past broken oaths would be a problem. So far my old broken oath to YHVH hasn't posed any issues with Aspects or Essences (maybe the ones I've worked with just don't like deities?). But I theorize if you break an Oath with an allied Essence or Aspect, its allies will ******** you up in every way imaginable (I know that's how it works in the philosophy anyways). And I doubt a persistent chronic oathbreaker will get the time of day.

That's extremely interesting, Recursive Paradox. More interesting then I'd like it to be, actually.

I enjoy reading what you have to say and it oftens give me something to ponder about. Your pathways thread is simply amazing. It baffles me how you could create and discover something so dangerous, beautiful and mind-blowing.

Thank you for answering my questions. 3nodding

No problem. And thank you for the compliments, as inapplicable as I feel they are. I'm just a theorist working with a scary but beautiful world, as we all are. sweatdrop  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Bastemhet

Even though I really like how it looks when I do use it.

Likewise.

I just went back and reread what you wrote because I skimmed it the first time. You really wash your face every time? I hope you have a good moisturizer. eek Doing that would wreak havoc on my face!

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Some of the things I have seen, dreamed and the like, I try and alter, the check for an energetic resonance. Again, we're getting into a realm where English and context aren't communicating accurately.

Yeah, I think a looong time ago you mentioned something like this before, but I have a hang up when it comes to energy sensing. While using Reiki it feels pretty obvious because of the heat, but I noticed that when you gave me the Reiki treatment I felt that a lot better than when I had been using it on myself, even though you're hundreds of miles away! I don't know if this is a result of my ability to read it, or my attunements themselves.

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The one that drew me closest to my name sakes had to do with me following instructions and it being confirmed through outcome.

Same on this one, though I had to get over my doubting phase and realize that coincidence is much more aptly understood as synchronicity.  

[TeaDidikai]

Bastemhet

I just went back and reread what you wrote because I skimmed it the first time. You really wash your face every time? I hope you have a good moisturizer. eek Doing that would wreak havoc on my face!

It doesn't effect me except in the early dry part of the winter.

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Yeah, I think a looong time ago you mentioned something like this before, but I have a hang up when it comes to energy sensing. While using Reiki it feels pretty obvious because of the heat, but I noticed that when you gave me the Reiki treatment I felt that a lot better than when I had been using it on myself, even though you're hundreds of miles away! I don't know if this is a result of my ability to read it, or my attunements themselves.

Remind me what degree are you?

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Same on this one, though I had to get over my doubting phase and realize that coincidence is much more aptly understood as synchronicity.

"Notice what you notice and let it go."  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Remind me what degree are you?

2nd degree, two different teachers...both lineaged through Rand. neutral The first one said she was a mix of different practices, second one I don't remember, but I can check my papers when I get home if you need the info. Also, I noticed that when I tried to add my additional Reiki when you were doing yours, it flowed a bit easier.

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Same on this one, though I had to get over my doubting phase and realize that coincidence is much more aptly understood as synchronicity.

"Notice what you notice and let it go."

Hmm.  

[TeaDidikai]

Bastemhet

2nd degree, two different teachers...both lineaged through Rand. neutral The first one said she was a mix of different practices, second one I don't remember, but I can check my papers when I get home if you need the info. Also, I noticed that when I tried to add my additional Reiki when you were doing yours, it flowed a bit easier.

Curious. Perhaps it would be best to take it to PMs?