OH DAMN IT

[TeaDidikai]

Fiddlers Green

TeaDidikai

Fair enough.
I can think of a number of reasons to have secrets- not all of which are designed to keep people from understanding, but often practiced to keep from acting upon or bastardizing said traditions.

That is true, but until a representative of the secret keeping group steps forward and explains their reasons, all that I can specualte is that they keep the secret because they want to be able to choose who knows it.

Agreed.

~pokes Reagun~ Why are they mysteries?

Morggie-
The end all be all is that Wicca is now accepted in M&R and this Guild to be a fully Eclectic Theology given over to the Masses rather than a Initiation Based Mystery Religion of Clergy.  

[Kalyani Srijoi]

TeaDidikai

Fiddlers Green

TeaDidikai

Fair enough.
I can think of a number of reasons to have secrets- not all of which are designed to keep people from understanding, but often practiced to keep from acting upon or bastardizing said traditions.

That is true, but until a representative of the secret keeping group steps forward and explains their reasons, all that I can specualte is that they keep the secret because they want to be able to choose who knows it.

Agreed.

~pokes Reagun~ Why are they mysteries?

Morggie-
The end all be all is that Wicca is now accepted in M&R and this Guild to be a fully Eclectic Theology given over to the Masses rather than a Initiation Based Mystery Religion of Clergy.

Wait.

What?  

[Fiddlers Green]

But there is an active Mystery Cult hiding within it... they lurk everywhere... you never know which one might be one of those wacky initiates. ninja  

[TeaDidikai]

Fiddlers Green

But there is an active Mystery Cult hiding within it... they lurk everywhere... you never know which one might be one of those wacky initiates. ninja

They hide?

I can't speak for anyone else- but if I could time travel backwards I am afraid I would have to give Gardner the 161 Laws and tell him to keep his yap shut.  

[Kalyani Srijoi]

Seriosuly, though. Have we seriously agreed that Wicca is 100% eclectic?

Because I thought we contested that point.  

[TeaDidikai]

Ban Triste-chan!

Seriosuly, though. Have we seriously agreed that Wicca is 100% eclectic?

Because I thought we contested that point.

We? WE?!

~ahems~ We are amused. ~nodnod~

Anyway- well, while the initial theology is Eclectic, Gardner himself defined Wicca to mean certain things.

Going against the foundations themselves either makes you "not a witch", or "not a Wiccan".

As witchcraft exists outside of those traditions, and Gardner himself acknowledged this- I am inclined to say that Witchcults that fit the form Gardner spoke of are Wiccan, while those that do not are not "witches", but the cultural term there of for said individuals in the framework of the debate at hand.  

[Kalyani Srijoi]

TeaDidikai

Ban Triste-chan!

Seriosuly, though. Have we seriously agreed that Wicca is 100% eclectic?

Because I thought we contested that point.

We? WE?!

~ahems~ We are amused. ~nodnod~

Anyway- well, while the initial theology is Eclectic, Gardner himself defined Wicca to mean certain things.

Going against the foundations themselves either makes you "not a witch", or "not a Wiccan".

As witchcraft exists outside of those traditions, and Gardner himself acknowledged this- I am inclined to say that Witchcults that fit the form Gardner spoke of are Wiccan, while those that do not are not "witches", but the cultural term there of for said individuals in the framework of the debate at hand.

It's a royal we. WE SWEAR. WE ARE QUEEN OF ******** EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE.

Anyway, we ( whee )

Oh my ******** god, I'm sorry. I just realized that, like, whee is pronounced as 'we.' Dude, I am so using that in place of 'we' for the rest of this post. Dude. At least for the next sentence, anyway.

Anyway, whee are kind of confused here. I mean, I'm reading this as you saying that those groups that don't fit into Gardner's guidelines aren't witches but are Wiccan, which makes so little sense that I can't even begin to wrap my mind around it. srsly.

Also, we need to make up a new word for 'witch' in the context that Gardner used it or something. Because this is getting insane. I can never tell if you're talking about witches like 'some person who practices magic' or 'some person in a Kaballah-influence fertility cult centered around the Lord and Lady.' I vote for 'skoobop' as the new 'Gardner-witch,' but that's probably retarded.  

[TatteredAngel]

Ban Triste-chan!

Also, we need to make up a new word for 'witch' in the context that Gardner used it or something. Because this is getting insane. I can never tell if you're talking about witches like 'some person who practices magic' or 'some person in a Kaballah-influence fertility cult centered around the Lord and Lady.' I vote for 'skoobop' as the new 'Gardner-witch,' but that's probably retarded.

Oh no, no, the rest of us should be skoobops! I totally want to be a skoobop!

Which adds nothing, and I'm sorry. I'm woefully ignorant on this topic, but I'm trying to follow it because I am curious. It does seem like there's a lot of word-confusion going on, due to both multiple meanings and fluffed uses of Gardner's and other people's words. I almost think we should compile a good glossary somewhere.  

[MorganeLeFaye]

Ban Triste-chan!

TeaDidikai

Ban Triste-chan!

Seriosuly, though. Have we seriously agreed that Wicca is 100% eclectic?

Because I thought we contested that point.

We? WE?!

~ahems~ We are amused. ~nodnod~

Anyway- well, while the initial theology is Eclectic, Gardner himself defined Wicca to mean certain things.

Going against the foundations themselves either makes you "not a witch", or "not a Wiccan".

As witchcraft exists outside of those traditions, and Gardner himself acknowledged this- I am inclined to say that Witchcults that fit the form Gardner spoke of are Wiccan, while those that do not are not "witches", but the cultural term there of for said individuals in the framework of the debate at hand.

It's a royal we. WE SWEAR. WE ARE QUEEN OF ******** EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE.

Anyway, we ( whee )

Oh my ******** god, I'm sorry. I just realized that, like, whee is pronounced as 'we.' Dude, I am so using that in place of 'we' for the rest of this post. Dude. At least for the next sentence, anyway.

Anyway, whee are kind of confused here. I mean, I'm reading this as you saying that those groups that don't fit into Gardner's guidelines aren't witches but are Wiccan, which makes so little sense that I can't even begin to wrap my mind around it. srsly.

Also, we need to make up a new word for 'witch' in the context that Gardner used it or something. Because this is getting insane. I can never tell if you're talking about witches like 'some person who practices magic' or 'some person in a Kaballah-influence fertility cult centered around the Lord and Lady.' I vote for 'skoobop' as the new 'Gardner-witch,' but that's probably retarded.

Lol, or a Gitch?

I'm kinda of confused by this as well. From what I understand a person can be a witch without being Wiccan. Also, a person can be Wiccan without being a witch.

And what about the different branches of Wicca? It's isn't all Gardnerian Wicca. Anyone who labels themself as plain Wiccan is either an eclectic blend of the different branches, or they just don't know what the heck their doing yet.

Of course, my tiny, new, and probably still slightly fluffed mind could always be wrong. whee  

[MorganeLeFaye]

TatteredAngel

I almost think we should compile a good glossary somewhere.

Agreed. 3nodding

Especially for those of us diving into the conversation mid-way. xD  

[Kalyani Srijoi]

MorganeLeFaye

Ban Triste-chan!

TeaDidikai

Ban Triste-chan!

Seriosuly, though. Have we seriously agreed that Wicca is 100% eclectic?

Because I thought we contested that point.

We? WE?!

~ahems~ We are amused. ~nodnod~

Anyway- well, while the initial theology is Eclectic, Gardner himself defined Wicca to mean certain things.

Going against the foundations themselves either makes you "not a witch", or "not a Wiccan".

As witchcraft exists outside of those traditions, and Gardner himself acknowledged this- I am inclined to say that Witchcults that fit the form Gardner spoke of are Wiccan, while those that do not are not "witches", but the cultural term there of for said individuals in the framework of the debate at hand.

It's a royal we. WE SWEAR. WE ARE QUEEN OF ******** EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE.

Anyway, we ( whee )

Oh my ******** god, I'm sorry. I just realized that, like, whee is pronounced as 'we.' Dude, I am so using that in place of 'we' for the rest of this post. Dude. At least for the next sentence, anyway.

Anyway, whee are kind of confused here. I mean, I'm reading this as you saying that those groups that don't fit into Gardner's guidelines aren't witches but are Wiccan, which makes so little sense that I can't even begin to wrap my mind around it. srsly.

Also, we need to make up a new word for 'witch' in the context that Gardner used it or something. Because this is getting insane. I can never tell if you're talking about witches like 'some person who practices magic' or 'some person in a Kaballah-influence fertility cult centered around the Lord and Lady.' I vote for 'skoobop' as the new 'Gardner-witch,' but that's probably retarded.

Lol, or a Gitch?

I'm kinda of confused by this as well. From what I understand a person can be a witch without being Wiccan. Also, a person can be Wiccan without being a witch.

And what about the different branches of Wicca? It's isn't all Gardnerian Wicca. Anyone who labels themself as plain Wiccan is either an eclectic blend of the different branches, or they just don't know what the heck their doing yet.

Of course, my tiny, new, and probably still slightly fluffed mind could always be wrong. whee

The thing about Wicca is that most sects of 'Wicca' aren't really Wiccan at all. Wiccans are defined as priests and priestesses of the Kabalistically-influenced fertility cult of the Lord and Lady, aka the God and Goddess. So if you're not a priest or a priestess (meaning you haven't been initiated into some coven or group as clergy), if you don't exclusively worship the Lord and Lady, if your group isn't a fertility cult, and if your rituals/magic/other thingies aren't sufficiently influence by ceremonial magic/ the Kaballah, you are technically an Eclectic Neo-pagan, not a Wiccan.

There is no Wiccan laity, basically, and you can't just declare yourself a Wiccan any more than you can just delcare yourself a Catholic priest. The term is commonly misused.

Edit: Oh, and there are other sects of Wicca besides Gardnerian. But Eclectic Wicca and other forms of 'solitary' Wicca aren't really Wiccan at all.  

[MorganeLeFaye]

Thank you for the clarification. 3nodding  

[TeaDidikai]

Ban Triste-chan!

Edit: Oh, and there are other sects of Wicca besides Gardnerian. But Eclectic Wicca and other forms of 'solitary' Wicca aren't really Wiccan at all.

Solitary Wiccans exist.

What I am saying is that the only way one can make sense of what Gardner said is if Witch means only what he says it means.

Well- fine then. What do we do with what the rest of the population calls witches, but aren't what Gardner called Witches?

My suggestion is to turn to the culture the individual hails from and use the term that would translate to witch.  

[Kuroiban]

I'm backtracking a bit in the discussion simply to satisfy my own curiocity. So sue me. sweatdrop

I know why SRW is dumped on so much, but why Cunningham. I DO realize he is quite a bit over-hyped as the begin-all/end-all to Wicca, something he is far far from...but I never could understand why people get in arms about him.

He's over quoted (yeah, and I know I'm quoting him on my sig line but I REALLY liked that quote) and the fluffy clings to him like the crap in a lint trap, but is that any reason to bash him?

Or am I missing something critical?  

[Fiddlers Green]

TeaDidikai

They hide?

By comparison, as they aren't (generally) the ones loudly proclaiming themselves. ninja

Quote:

I can't speak for anyone else- but if I could time travel backwards I am afraid I would have to give Gardner the 161 Laws and tell him to keep his yap shut.

Well, what do you really expect from a Crowley stoog. wink