Views on Christianity.

[zz1000zz]

Uh-huh. Thanks for sharing. Now please tell me why you had to start talking? Your original post had no bearing on my post, as i made no claims on the divinity of the bible. The person i responded to was supporting the bible while implying it was not divine, and i mentioned this may be a contradiction, nothing more.

Again i ask, what is your purpose in making these posts? Nobody has invited them, though that is not to say they are unwelcome.  

[Silenus Slade]

zz1000zz

Uh-huh. Thanks for sharing. Now please tell me why you had to start talking? Your original post had no bearing on my post, as i made no claims on the divinity of the bible. The person i responded to was supporting the bible while implying it was not divine, and i mentioned this may be a contradiction, nothing more.

Again i ask, what is your purpose in making these posts? Nobody has invited them, though that is not to say they are unwelcome.

This is a forum, lady. People comment on what other people have said. You also quoted me in a post, which, as I previously stated, INVITES me respond. Now here is the thing: if you meant to only address what the first person said, as the comment I made also quoted another person whom I responded to, my criticism is still equally valid as it still pertains to the exact same subject matter. Except for one thing, that person was you. Hmm, commenting on someone else's post...this sounds like a forum.

Secondly, you made no claims as to the divinity of the bible? Did you not say in a post, the one in which you quote ME, that "The same warrant is used for the divinity of the bible as is used for the existence of god. Faith. If you wish to say the bible is not divine, you are somewhat obligated to critique this faith, rather than blandly dismiss it." Not only does it a.) address the divinity of the bible, b.) it addresses me and c.) it challenges my opinion.

Now, for one and all to see, here is what you have proven. Instead of addressing my arguments, you choose to try to insult me by asking me why I am opening my mouth in a public forum, and then trying to deny involvement ala "I did not say..." and "I was not talking to you." Is this an avoidance mechanism? A way to cope with something you don't want to acknowledge? Congratulations, your attempt at an insult has simply shown people your own moral fiber and ability to discuss matters in-depth in a public format.

I bid you good day, zz1000zz.  

[Silenus Slade]

Silenus Slade

zz1000zz

Silenus Slade

zz1000zz

That really seems to imply the bible is not divine.

It's not divine. Problem solved. I'd like to see someone argue that it is divine though.

Christianity relies on the bible being either divine word, or divinely inspired. If such is not true, modern Christianity collapses.

By the way, if you are going to take a contrary stance, you should at least have the courtesy of explaining your reasoning.

Actually, no warrant was given for the bible's divinity, so it would be difficult, even unfair, for me to have a concrete response. As far as I can see, all you have said is "Christians think it is." So please have the courtesy of starting off with a well-developed explaination and I will be happy to respond with numerous canned arguments Christians have never been able to fully argue against. Theodicy alone is good enough to remove typical depictions of a god from the picture. If, of course, that does not seem to challenge you, I will be happy to start writing papers on the matter.

You get what you give.

For further reference, here is the first time the subject matter I was interested and voiced an opinion in was addressed.  

[DR490N]

zz1000zz

Thank you for providing the sources and evidence required to support your outlandish claims DR490N. Your willingness to cooperate and participate in an open discussion has really enlightened me. Those exact verses you provided me were precisely what it took to turn me to your point of view...

Or at least that would be true if every word coming out of your mouth was not gibberish. That would be true if your manner of debate consisted of any attempt to convey a message other than "I am cooler than you." Indeed, all of those things may have been true if your posts had as much merit as the scribblings on bathroom stalls. As that is not the case, all i can say to you is, "Please quit making sounds come out of your mouth-hole. It makes my ears bleed."

you truly are an ignorant moron, as most christians are. if one took the time to read what i said with an open mind and impartial view, one would see that my arguments do indeed have merit if one looks at the bible logically, and not under the assumptions that have been made by mankind for centuries. it has nothing to do with being "cool". in fact i dont like people that claim to be "cooler" than anyone else. this is not a popularirty contest, but a philisophical and ideological discussion.
an interesting point however:
the bible states that man has dominion over the earth.
most pagan religions state that man is to live in symbiosis with the earth and all things living on it, and give them great respect.
is it coincidence that not long after western society(europe is still considered western society) turned to christianity, mankind began to fall out of touch with the metaphysical and nature? is it coincidence that mankind has polluted and raped this earth of its resources? I would think not, though you're welcome to wallow in ignorance and believe it is indeed a coincidence.

just think about that one for a while. i'm not trying to convert anyone to my own beliefs, but i am trying to make a point, and i believe that deserves respect.  

[Hunter of the Dammed]

I use to be a christian now im a witch, so let the preacher swing his damn bible at that  

[Alice_K8]

alice from weirdland

I'm Catholic but I'm not a huge fan of the people who are "devout" Catholics who are really conservitive. I think that those kind of people are trying to hard to be holy and are probably finding something or suffering from severe guilt. I would probably like religon more if it was less judgemental and more like myself... I guess I'm just sort of scared of "bibal clonkers"

I have a problem with some 'devout catholics' who try to appear perfect and who get offended by any little sin. That's not what christianity is about anyway. It's not about rules. It says in galatians (galatians 5:4 --or somewhere around there) that thoses who are trying to gain righteousenss by following rules have been alianated from christ and ultimately will not get into heaven. Ironic since most people I talk to think christianity is all about following rules.  

[Alice_K8]

Broken_Shadow_Child

they treat me like crap, and said i was possed and influensed by the devil, and a nun glared at me before saying that i was lost and throwing holly water at me, so the next day i wore a shirt that had to do with burning churches on it... she hated me from then on... twisted ... oh, and this christian kid told me to go back to the hell hole i crawled out from... and he called me the spawn of satan...

gonk why are you all meeting such bad intollerant christans! I swear none of the ones I know are like that. When christians behave in such a manner that many of you are describing, They are getting the religion SO VERY WRONG! I mean, the christan religion is SUPPOSED to be tolerant and loving. It sickens me to the core to see people morphing something so pure into something evil.  

[Alice_K8]

_Built_to_Offend_666

Christianity makes people judgemental. In the eyes of a devout christian, people have to live a 'moral' lifestyle in order to get into heaven. this has caused people who believe they are living a devout lifestyle to become bigots and judge others based on their so-called 'flaw's. This very same essense has caused humanity, in general, to have some of the most ridiculous hangups. Shame, vendetta, and respect (ill get to respect later, and why that is bad) are all things that are rooted to christian values. Shame dictates the feeling of guilt over such things as simple as sexual desire and conflict. These are everyday actividies that have no reason as to why they would present any harm. Wildlife participates in these actividies multiple times each day. But we, as people, feel the need to settle it down simply because of this christian belief in morals.

Even if there ever was a god, and he actually cares enough to enslave his creations by writing a book telling everyone how to live...

I must point out a mistake of yours. It is not christianity that makes people judgemental, but rather their false beleif about christianity. As a matter of fact, according to the bible, you cannot get into heaven by living a moral life and obeying all the rules. You get to heaven only by the grace of God. It says in galatians 5:4 "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from christ; you have fallen away from grace".

I won't deny that 'christians' are resposible for a lot of crap in past and current society, but christianity, as it is meant to be practiced, does not cause these problems.  

[DieiNoctis]

DR490N

the first statement does not mean that there is no other gods, it simply means that in his religion there are no other gods. this does not exclude the gods of other religions from their own separate religions, but excudes them from his.
the second quote, if one thinks hard about it, refers only to the one specific god. it does not say that there is no other afterlife, and in fact the large amount of confirmed claims of reincarnation would quite easily contradict that. i personally have been reincarnated several times in several forms, though i still seek confirmation for myself and others.
again, as i stated several tiems in this forum, i was once a christian myself.
now, the quote stating that witches should be burned, was from the "new living translation" of the bible, which is the one primarily used by the church i used to go to, and is quickly gaining in popularity, being reworded for the common man to understand, making it the bible that many folks will believe in.
i looked on a whim a couple months back to see what it really said about witches, seeing as witches were once accepted within christian society, and pagans were free to live as they pleased. i looked in the back index for stuff. i didnt believe that there was any problem until finding that(i've since tossed out that bible or given it to my mother, i dont know which, so i cant grab the quote for you).

Your first two claims are rediculous. From a Christian viewpoint, there is only one God. From a Christian viewpoint, there can be no other afterlife than the one presented in the Bible based off of Isaiah 44:6, as was posted. If there is no other God, there can be no other afterlife than the one that God commanded.

Also, there are no confirmed claims of reincarnation. There are verified claims that people, after hypnotic regression, knew details about previous lives, but there is no verification that the life they see was theirs. A large number of hypnotic regressions end up with the person repeating either their fantasy of who they were, or something they read in a book.
A very intresting 'previous life' was a young girl who recalled every detail of her most previous incarnation perfectly. She recalled her husband, and children, her house and neighborhood. It was a recent incarnation, so she went to visit the house. The woman she claimed to have been re-incarnated from was still alive.
I think it's more likely (Though by how much, I don't know) that people are 'remembering' either someone elses life, or getting glimpses of an alternate universe.


Also, the only time the Bible commands witches to be killed is in Exodus 22:18. Exodus, being in the old testament, was made irrelevant by Jesus's coming. Since Christianity started after Christs comming, it was never relevant to Christianity. Anyone who burned whiches was going against Jesus's command to love thy enemy. Jews are the one you should be yelling at for that particular passage.

DR490N

the bible states that man has dominion over the earth.
most pagan religions state that man is to live in symbiosis with the earth and all things living on it, and give them great respect.
is it coincidence that not long after western society(europe is still considered western society) turned to christianity, mankind began to fall out of touch with the metaphysical and nature? is it coincidence that mankind has polluted and raped this earth of its resources? I would think not, though you're welcome to wallow in ignorance and believe it is indeed a coincidence.

just think about that one for a while. i'm not trying to convert anyone to my own beliefs, but i am trying to make a point, and i believe that deserves respect.

Not long after? Christianity was the major religion in Rome within two centuries of it's conception, and had become the major religion in Europe by the fifth century A.D. That's 1500 years ago.
The "polution and rape" of the Earth only began very recently with the industrial revolution, around the 18th century.
The "pollution and rape of the earth" as you say is due to technological advancment, not religious advancment. And although many sciences have had Christian influence in the past, most people would agree that the people whom are mainly responsivble for technology, scientist, are largly non-religious in their works.

Mankind as a whole has fallen away from the metaphysic and nature in favor of logic and reason. It's not just Christians. The only reason it may seem that way is because the largest religion is Christianity.
The problem is humans, not Christians.

The Bible does state that man was given dominion over the earth. The Bible says that Mankind has dominion over everything, fish, birds, earth, water land. We were supposed to look over it, but mankind is sinful and rebuked pretty much everything God told them to do. I would venture to say that the earth is becoming polluted in spite of Christianity, not becasue of it.

Silenus Slade

2. Theodicy. If god is god, he is not good. If god is good, he is not god. Explaining the nature of evil and its existence in the world is a problem theologians constantly grapple with. It is easier in times of peace, but as soon as people encounter hardship, the tone changes.

I would disagree, I would say that God can be both good and God. Explaining evil in the world is no real problem. God gave mankind free will, mankind chose to be sinful, and perpetuated evil. God sees that to force his creation to beleive in him would be wrong, as it would make mankind akin to robots, unable to do but what we're told to.
Evil is allowed by God to exist becasue not doing so would not be good.
Basically, God values the existance of free-will in making than the absolution of purity in makind. He wants us to choose to be good, not be forced to be.

Quote:

3. Most Christian religions, take Catholicism for example, are nihilistic. They reject the value of the physical (note: real) world and instead beg the question of a meaning to life by producing this afterlife which, depending on which sect you believe in, will generally ignore most worldly actions. So what is the point? "Nevermind, look a this shiny thing."

According to the Bible, one who accepts Christ as the savior with a willing heart will attempt to sin less. Christianity wasn't meant to be an organized religion, it was meant to be a personal relationship with God. What each individual sect beleives means nothing, as Men have no authority on morality. What is right and what is wrong is God-ordained. To reach heaven the Bible requires but one thing, repentance of sins to the Christ.  

[NikiPaprika]

I don't mean to be mean, but my veiws on christianity aren't exactly friendly...

...I mean, I'm friends with christians, and those friends are really nice people. I Just don't agree with their religion...

The reason why i believe christianity is a very insulted religion is because your "God" apparently loves "everyone" unconditionally. However, he is not very pleased if you are a homosexual, whether your christian or not, a Jew (which strangely enough, actually believe in God, too. I know for a fact they believe in one of the testaments, I think it's the Old testement.) and, well, he hates anyone else that doesn't believe in him. Apparently, in a recent text book I have read in my RME (Religion and Moral Education-Not sure if americans recieve a class like this, but we certainly do(Scotland)) and it seems that Buddhism is the only religion that condemns ANY violence whatsoever. As for the Christians God, sure, why not slaughter a few muslims or jews while we're at it? A red headed girl, red is realted to satan, so therefore she must burn! Any woman that doesn't have her pet obey her, yeah, she's a witch, let's burn her too! And if you don't believe in christianity, we'll just find a really cruel, sick way to torture you because you don't believe in Christ!!! Okay, I understand that was how it was way back in time, but it still exsists.

The bad press comes from bible bashing bastards (I love alliteration :3) that seem to use the bible as a book of facts. If people don't believe in it, they get on their case and say they are doomed to an eternity of hell! Well, I guess I'm certainly screwed, seeing how i do believe in reincarnation. ¬¬
All they like to do is tell everyone God IS real, not that it's their BELEIF that God IS real. There is a vital difference that people just do not comprehend.

Of course, as sickening as Christianity is to me, I come from a multicultural society. That especially includes my school. I have seen people from other parts of the world visit my school, and they obviously have different religions. It's high time that those bible bashers actually realised that the only way you will earn respect is to respect others. If they don't start to shape up and respect the fact that others may have different beliefs, then they will always continuously recieve bad press. And notoriously condemning innocent non-believers is getting them NOWHERE.

Their fault, not ours. Dx

p.s. I'm a bit of a buddhist mesel'. 3nodding

 

[NikiPaprika]

iola nightmare

I have nothing against a majority of Christians. Most of them are just like everyone else I know. But like all religions it has its faults.
Also, Christians try to convert people more than every other religion (in my personal experience at least). You never see Buddhists or Wiccans coming to your doorstep with pamphlets.

lol

too true.

3nodding

Mind you, in my street, I live near a minister called "Tilly". Nice lady, though I've walked past her house a few times. She seems to always miss my house whenever leaflets ARE given out. xD

 

[Dr_lecter1988]

Silenus Slade

Faith is not an argument. It is an assertion.

If you want to somehow turn faith into a warrant, you need something other than a tagline and assumptions. This is a basic premise to argumentation.

Do not ask me what my purpose is if you have quoted and "responded" to something I have written. That is inviting a response, and thus is the purpose in writing.
I have no tolerance for people who try to argue for things based on faith--I repeat, faith is not an argument. If you want to rely on faith, you should not even be discussing this as the thing to do would be to say, "I have faith, that is all I can say." That, I could respect.

You want me to critique the faith?
1.) It is a faith, thus based on belief--conviction, trust, confidence. This creates two problems. First, beliefs are called what they are because of a lack of factual evidence. Otherwise, it would also be a scientific theory (note: definition of scientific theory is different from a theory) with experiments to prove or disprove a hypothesis and also be able to draw conclusions from it. That is why a belief in gravity (the semantics religious people play with) is a misnomer, because you "know" gravity exists. You can see plenty of evidence and mathematical proof. The second problem is that even if we were to take faith as a criterion for evaluating value, we would have to look at each person's moral fiber to decide whether the religion held value. Looking at the general populous, I do no think that is how a religion would like to be evaluated in general.

2. Theodicy. If god is god, he is not good. If god is good, he is not god. Explaining the nature of evil and its existence in the world is a problem theologians constantly grapple with. It is easier in times of peace, but as soon as people encounter hardship, the tone changes.

3. Most Christian religions, take Catholicism for example, are nihilistic. They reject the value of the physical (note: real) world and instead beg the question of a meaning to life by producing this afterlife which, depending on which sect you believe in, will generally ignore most worldly actions. So what is the point? "Nevermind, look a this shiny thing."

4. A religion and its people are inseperable. A religion cannot exist without people because that is where the structure lies for worship and belief. Ironically, this means a god is not necessary to have a religion. In fact, having a god would pose a restriction on the church in a way to cease its evolution. If you look at most monotheist religions over the years, there has been quite a bit of change. So who is right? Have the basic principles of the god suddenly disappeared?

5. Religious assimilation. How much of a Christian religion comes from various other religions? Well if you believe the historical evidence that Yahweh was once a vengeful mountain god, it goes back quite a ways. Makes the idea of a noodle monster somewhat plausible assuming someone digs back far enough. Is this a taint on the religion or what it was meant to be? If it is a taint, religion as we see it today is false. If it is meant to be, then there is an acceptance in the fictionalization of higherpowers in order to create dramatic, awe-inspiring stories to imbue morals. If you go with Durkheim, there is a pure element in each religion if you go back far enough, so how different is the true faith? Let's just say most civilizations, if you go back far enough, had human sacrifices.

Oh the list goes on and on.

Assuredly Christianity originally was designed to be a nihilistic religion where physical possessions were unimportant, hence monasteries and monks who have given up their worldly possessions because the do not matter, if not clutter their judgment in the eyes of God.

but in todays era, christianity is anything but a Nihilistic religion, Christmas, easter, Crosses, crucifixes. tithes, donation plates, need i continue. the western world does not truly allow a nihilistic religion to exist. the capitalistic nature of your society almost completely prevents it.

the exception to that is the eastern world, with Buddhism. in Buddhism one is taught that worldly desires cause suffering, so relieving one of those possessions and desires can help end the suffering, Buddhists do not want, they only receive what is given to them. have you ever heard of modern day Christians doing that?

more about nihilism? Read some Nietzsche.  

[samsookool]

im christan
i like being christan
and ya we do have alot of people send and think alot of rumers about us that arnt true, but u learn to liv with it. u kinda get use to it after awile.  

[vampyrblood]

NikiPaprika

I don't mean to be mean, but my veiws on christianity aren't exactly friendly...

...I mean, I'm friends with christians, and those friends are really nice people. I Just don't agree with their religion...

The reason why i believe christianity is a very insulted religion is because your "God" apparently loves "everyone" unconditionally. However, he is not very pleased if you are a homosexual, whether your christian or not, a Jew (which strangely enough, actually believe in God, too. I know for a fact they believe in one of the testaments, I think it's the Old testement.) and, well, he hates anyone else that doesn't believe in him. Apparently, in a recent text book I have read in my RME (Religion and Moral Education-Not sure if americans recieve a class like this, but we certainly do(Scotland)) and it seems that Buddhism is the only religion that condemns ANY violence whatsoever. As for the Christians God, sure, why not slaughter a few muslims or jews while we're at it? A red headed girl, red is realted to satan, so therefore she must burn! Any woman that doesn't have her pet obey her, yeah, she's a witch, let's burn her too! And if you don't believe in christianity, we'll just find a really cruel, sick way to torture you because you don't believe in Christ!!! Okay, I understand that was how it was way back in time, but it still exsists.

The bad press comes from bible bashing bastards (I love alliteration :3) that seem to use the bible as a book of facts. If people don't believe in it, they get on their case and say they are doomed to an eternity of hell! Well, I guess I'm certainly screwed, seeing how i do believe in reincarnation. ¬¬
All they like to do is tell everyone God IS real, not that it's their BELEIF that God IS real. There is a vital difference that people just do not comprehend.

Of course, as sickening as Christianity is to me, I come from a multicultural society. That especially includes my school. I have seen people from other parts of the world visit my school, and they obviously have different religions. It's high time that those bible bashers actually realised that the only way you will earn respect is to respect others. If they don't start to shape up and respect the fact that others may have different beliefs, then they will always continuously recieve bad press. And notoriously condemning innocent non-believers is getting them NOWHERE.

Their fault, not ours. Dx

p.s. I'm a bit of a buddhist mesel'. 3nodding

MY GOD!!! Dominate me women!!! 4laugh .You took the words right out of my mouth so to speak biggrin along with these reasons I have also have personal experiances to put backing to your words, which in turn made me further view the religion in a not so friendly light. But I do have two friends that are christian, but obvioulsy they are my friends, so we share similar views and such and they know of my views on their religion. However there has been a recent brach of prodestan (sp?) that a friend of mine is in, it is new, they not only allow female preists who is also a lesbian, but they have more progressive views that fit in with the way the real world is  

[A Dark Knight]

i am sorry if i offend anyone but i can't stand Christians, they're the most ignorant, arrogant, close-minded, and hipocritical people on the earth. and i'm surrounded by them! sad it's not what they believe in that makes me not like them. but how it makes them think. not only do they reject everything/one else whether they're right or not, but they won't even question theirselves to make sure that they're right. they think that if something is in the Bible then it is true and right and everything else is wrong and a lie. and if ur not Christian ur going to hell. and then they don't even follow half of what it says. they won't question anything... they're either just to dumb to even think about it or they're to afraid that they might find out something they don't like.
this makes me more sad than mad...
so i just try not to even talk to them cuz most won't listen to u anyways and the rest dont care.
if i were invovled in something as important as religion, i would at least pick one that made sense and dedicate myself completely to it.