Pagan Manners

[WebenBanu]

Starlock

What the heck is the difference between a 'scene' and a 'community'? If that's the basis for your argument, it needs to be addressed.

I agree, although I think that's one of those core points which Tea will be waiting to address until she's healthier- along with what Pagan Unity is, why it's an issue for this project, why it's bad for Pagans in general, and an example of how the guidelines we've set forth infringe on other people's right to their culture.

Starlock

On the one side, I can see the point Tea has. No community is entirely homogenized, nor is it expected to.

However, on that same issue I've already pointed out that if the community was entirely homogenized then there wouldn't be any point to manners. If the community was homogenous then we would all think/act/look/be the same. "Manners" and "etiquette" are concepts which were created in order to allow people of different worldviews and attitudes to interact with each other in a productive and reasonably genial fashion.

Starlock

I think we all know there will always be those who don't follow what's been set out, but that's no reason to just STOP setting out some guidelines. No, we don't have to agree, no we don't have to get along and such things are always problems, but I do not find that a sufficient reason for not trying.

Precisely. Nor does everyone have to take up these guidelines, nor has anyone said that they do, and in fact we have stated explicitely several times that they do not. We are beating a dead horse into the ground here, folks- those who don't feel that they would be helpful wouldn't have much reason to use them. These guidelines are designed to benefit those who do. I've good reason to believe that those who live by these guidelines will be much more likely to move efficiently through the Pagan community with a minimum of drama and resistance from the people around them. That is what they are for. Those who do not want to be polite or considerate to the people around them are likely to meet up with resistance, unhelpful attitudes, and malevolent behavior- but that's just life, and it happens quite naturally whether or not someone has read this thread. That's the sort of reality which threads like this are created to address, after all.

In fact, remember those folks who sling accusations of bad manners in people's faces if the other person does something rude? The ones that the folks who're against these guidelines seem to cite as one of their main reasons for not wanting to accept protocols like these? They're a part of that group of people who freely exercises their right not to follow these guidelines. LOL.

Starlock

If I did, I'd be an anarchist. And I'm begining to wonder if you're an anarchist Tea, but let me know if I'm wrong in that. wink

It would be funny if those who disagree were anarchists, because that would solve our problems so easily! According to the principles of anarchy, they can't tell us to do or not do anything! So an anarchist has no place complaining about anything that we do, because there are no rules unless they have enough military power to enforce them on us- but then there would no longer be anarchy, but a dictatorship. biggrin

Starlock

America as a whole is a crapload more diverse than just the Neopagan community, and we have manners, cutural expectations, rules and laws.

Very true- after all, manners as a concept are meant to address a group with a diverse demographic.

Starlock

Therefore the fact that this list is specifically addressed to Neopagans doesn't mean a whole lot; everything in it is derived from basic American (perhaps Western in general) expectations. So in other words, it touches every American whether their Neopagan, Christian, Atheist, or whatever.

I'd expand on that, actually, because the guidelines set forth here so far touch on a hell of a lot more than just American values. I'd be genuinely surprised if anyone could find any culture here on this planet whose idea of proper conduct contradicted with the guidelines we've set forth, given a similar situation in their own cultural community. It's possible that there are some out there, and if there are then I would be interested to know about them. So I'm going to do something really daring- I challenge anyone who is willing to find me an example of a cultural practice anywhere in the modern world which conflicts with these guidelines, given a similar situation in that other culture's community- I think that would add a very interesting new dimension to our discussion here.^_^  

[CuAnnan]

WebenBanu

reagun ban

Starlock

Hmph. There's only one person here I see having serious problems with the idea of manners (coughs).

That is the worst apology ever.

To be fair, we need to know what we're apologizing for before we can do it properly. And we haven't received a great deal of cooperation in that respect- which, I'll admit, is getting frustrating.^_^'

WebenBanu, you misinterpret. I was, with tongue in cheek, implying that Starlock was admitting to being the one having problems with manners and apologising for it.

It was a joke.  

[TeaDidikai]

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[Starlock]

A couple things in response:

-- As far as regulation goes, generally it is done via social norms. If you have bad manners, in many circles you're going to be socially shunned, outcasted, and disliked (the degree to which would depend on the offense). You might be surprised how incredibly effective the discomfort aroused from such things can affect people. I'm not sure if that's what you were getting at, but it's what I thought of at any rate whee

-- As far as universality goes, I don't think we've said its truly universal. Nothing is. It isn't mean to be held in a charter (or at least now how I've been approaching this topic) but simply within those who wish to uphold it to generate greater harmony in the community. Of course there's no way to legislate it, in a sense, for the entire Neopagan community! I'm not trying to assert that.

-- As far as law and manners go, manners are social norms, which are like unwritten laws. It has the similar aim of protecting people in many cases, albeit not all cases. Manners go beyond protecting people, though I wouldn't say their prime role is in protecting feelings. I'd say it is in promoting social harmony so people can just plain get along without arguing with each other and being rude every five minutes. At its base, it's about respecting people besides yourself.

And for those who don't give a damn and want to habitually just stride right out of a freshly cast circle... good for them. I doubt they'll be invited back to that gathering again if they do it on a consistent basis. And that's how social norms get enforced. 3nodding  

[WebenBanu]

I think I see the problem. I don't think that what Tea's talking about actually has anything to do with the guidelines we've been working on, Starlock.^_^' She did mention that she likes our set of guidelines, and she has passed over every invitation to show how her complaints about cultural oppression are relevant to those guidelines- citing instead other moral codes, and even codes of law, and complaining about rude behaviors by other people which have already been addressed by the guidelines which we have set forth. I'm starting to think that Tea just wants to blow off some steam, and it actually has nothing to do with what we have up so far.^_^'

Tea, should I interpret from your responses that you don't feel that anything in the set of guidelines proposed in this thread up to this point would contradict any Pagan's right to their culture?

Please note that I'm not asking if adherence to these guidelines would enable a Pagan to be rude- that would be absurd. These are manners, and by definition they are not rude. If someone wants to be rude, then they would not use manners. It makes no sense to insist that any set of manners are oppressive to Pagan diversity simply because they demonstrate ways of being polite to other Pagans. That is what they are for. Your protests in this regard are kind of like saying that a basketball is oppressive because you can't use it to write.

I really don't mind chatting with you on the subject, and we can certainly continue- but we were using the guidelines project as the platform for our discussion here, and your comments seemed to be directed at it. So if the issues which you would like to discuss actually do not pertain to it, then I'd really like to have that very clearly stated. As it is, I keep trying to relate what you're talking about to the guidelines that we've written, and it's giving me a headache because I don't see the relevancy and you won't tell me.^_^'  

[TeaDidikai]

Starlock

A couple things in response:

-- As far as regulation goes, generally it is done via social norms. If you have bad manners, in many circles you're going to be socially shunned, outcasted, and disliked (the degree to which would depend on the offense). You might be surprised how incredibly effective the discomfort aroused from such things can affect people. I'm not sure if that's what you were getting at, but it's what I thought of at any rate whee

Except, such isn't applicable in this case. We look at the rules regarding not questioning another person's right to call themselves something they aren't- and the rule breaks. Why? Because people with a lick of education on the subject at hand- maybe even with blood sweat and tears poured into working towards that title are more affronted by ignorance and slander than the idea that a child has their feelings hurt over people challenging their position.

Quote:

-- As far as universality goes, I don't think we've said its truly universal. Nothing is. It isn't mean to be held in a charter (or at least now how I've been approaching this topic) but simply within those who wish to uphold it to generate greater harmony in the community. Of course there's no way to legislate it, in a sense, for the entire Neopagan community! I'm not trying to assert that.

"Starlock, First Post"

One thing braught up at this activity was Pagan Manners. For those out there in the community, it becomes an important thing to consider.

These aren't Pagan Manners. These are the manners given to a specific group within the neo-pagan scene. Hence the bulk of this debate.

Quote:

-- As far as law and manners go, manners are social norms, which are like unwritten laws.

No, they aren't. Manners are formulated behavior suggestions to avoid hurting other people's feelings. Laws are a code of conduct applied to prevent harm to the society.

No one dies if someone uses the wrong fork at a dinner party- therefore there is no need to throw them in jail. Words have meanings after all.

Quote:

It has the similar aim of protecting people in many cases, albeit not all cases. Manners go beyond protecting people, though I wouldn't say their prime role is in protecting feelings. I'd say it is in promoting social harmony so people can just plain get along without arguing with each other and being rude every five minutes. At its base, it's about respecting people besides yourself.

Why is arguing a bad thing? Why do we need to be protected from it?

Quote:

And for those who don't give a damn and want to habitually just stride right out of a freshly cast circle... good for them. I doubt they'll be invited back to that gathering again if they do it on a consistent basis. And that's how social norms get enforced. 3nodding

Yes. Heaven forbid we take a look at the energy contributed to the ritual itself and instead socially blacklist someone because their paradigm doesn't hold circles in importance.

WebenBanu

I think I see the problem. I don't think that what Tea's talking about actually has anything to do with the guidelines we've been working on, Starlock.^_^' She did mention that she likes our set of guidelines, and she has passed over every invitation to show how her complaints about cultural oppression are relevant to those guidelines- citing instead other moral codes, and even codes of law, and complaining about rude behaviors by other people which have already been addressed by the guidelines which we have set forth. I'm starting to think that Tea just wants to blow off some steam, and it actually has nothing to do with what we have up so far.^_^'

Excuse me. I have for the last several pages been trying to point out that 1) These are not to be universally applied. It wasn't until the last post that Starlock agreed to this point.

2) I am speaking to the pragmatic sociological nature of a situation in which these rules are being applied. I cited a prime example, I have listed the individuals who fall into such situations and why such blanket concepts are at the heart of the weapons used in the initial phases of social Witch Wars.

Blow off some steam? That's out of line. Just because I am playing devil's advocate does not make my points invalid.

Quote:

Tea, should I interpret from your responses that you don't feel that anything in the set of guidelines proposed in this thread up to this point would contradict any Pagan's right to their culture?

Please note that I'm not asking if adherence to these guidelines would enable a Pagan to be rude- that would be absurd. These are manners, and by definition they are not rude. If someone wants to be rude, then they would not use manners. It makes no sense to insist that any set of manners are oppressive to Pagan diversity simply because they demonstrate ways of being polite to other Pagans. That is what they are for. Your protests in this regard are kind of like saying that a basketball is oppressive because you can't use it to write.

No. My protest comes from watching what really happens when a bunch of fluffy white lighters piss and moan about individuals who correct them, who actually justify their poor treatment of other people with such arrogant codes of conduct.

Tell you what. I typed this up and it turned into a seven page rant. The rest will be posted directly after this.  

[TeaDidikai]

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[Sivirs]

Let's all slow down the passive-aggressive train and have a snack in the dining car for a minute.

I don't think Tea's arguing that we should all pee on each other to mark our territory and that you should be walking up to someone's ritual and going "Hey, did you know that your technique is total crap? 'Cause.. yeah."

In fact, I think what she's trying to get at is that the *spirit* of the guidelines is admirable - she's more or less said so in between arguing the points - but that, specifically DUE to the nature of the Pagan scene, nobody will ever come to a satisfactory wording.

People with delusions will want to protect them at all costs - they will demand their opinion be held sacred, and they will defy these guidelines by disrespecting others and degrading their beliefs, all the while using the guidelines as a shield. How is one to point out this person's rudeness if the guidelines say not to? How does one respect this person's path while simultaneously telling them they have no right to be claiming it?

It's a no-win situation. If I ran up to Tea screaming about how I'm a gypsy (sorry Tea! word used for demo purposes only!) and would she like to get her palm read as I learned to do from my great-great-grandmother who was the magical witch queen of all gypsydom, how is she to react, going by these guidelines?

She can't tell me I'm being rude. She can't tell me my path is invalid. She can't cause a fuss if I hold a fakey mystical ritual right in front of her that flouts everything she's ever learned, because that would be rude.

The fault lies with me, for breaking the guideline about not pretending to be something I'm not. But what are the countermeasures? There are none. In order to provide a countermeasure, you inherently break a guideline.

So while "try to act civilized toward other people" applies, you really can't specify *how* it applies since you'd inevitably end up with someone marginalized. And that, I think, is what Tea is getting at - you can tell someone to be polite, but what definition of polite can we agree on? And what does one do if someone is being impolite first, knowingly or not? Turn the other cheek? We're not Christians though, and some of us follow paths where honor and consequences for insults to it are very important.

The idea of guidelines on manners goes against telling someone not to be rude - it breaks itself down. An individual ritual, and individual gathering - these can have rules, and they often do, and as Tea said, they should be sent out with invites. But that's still different. Rather than having rules on how to be sugar and spice, why not encourage seekers to just ASK what would and wouldn't be acceptable? After all, if we're protecting the poor confused newbies, the burden should be on them to inquire, and if we're protecting the wise and mystic sages of the community, they should know to inform people beforehand, and I can't fathom anyone getting and staying in a position of pagan authority for long if they can't handle being challenged.

That said, we're all big boys and girls. We've all had our feelings hurt, sometimes unjustly and sometimes rightly. We're none the worse for wear, are we? I'd argue we're better. I would not inflict on any prospective pagan an environment where they can feel completely safe to say anything whatsoever - but that doesn't mean I want an environment where it's kill or be killed, and that seems to be the assumption being made about Tea as well.

There IS a middle ground. It just isn't going to be found in guidelines.

I can put up a sign that says "This pomegranate is for sex and death rite. Please do not eat, unless you're into being violated by a very angry death deity." but it would apply to only that pomegranate at that rite. And I could leave it out all by itself, and people who ARE respectful would go "Hey, can I eat that?" and I'd say "OMG NO BACK AWAY FROM THAT!!!!" and people who aren't would have a nibble and a very interesting night. And then they'd learn to ask.

The cuddly way isn't necessarily the best for every individual, nor will it always work. (Nor is it the most entertaining for the rest of us, including the gods.) Sometimes it has to be trial by error - they'll survive, I promise. We all did.  

[Starlock]

Some clarifications...

A) Just because this was handed out at a specific meeting in my local community doesn't mean it applies to nothing else beyond that. They weren't meant as guidelines for just US, and, in fact, these are from essays that had been posted on the WEB originally.

B) Manners ARE, by my frame of reference, social norms akin to unwritten laws. BOTH prevent harm to society and if you cannot see how manners prevent harm to society... perhaps I'll give some case examples later.

C) There are exceptions to every rule. I fully expect people to use their on judgement with regards to the points I made in the first post and I think so did the original authors of them. It's impossible to make a fully-comprehensive list of every possible sittuation. Adaptation beyond the initial code is simply a given and expected.

D) Siv, if you read more of the thread (and I won't blame you if you didn't read the whole thing through before posting... its hella long and I wouldn't either) you'll find that yes, you can call people claims you believe are false. What is emphasized is that one should be civil about doing so. Granted that can be difficult, but it sure is possible. Plus, "C" above also applies to this point. whee

Nuff said for the time being. I need breakfast....  

[CuAnnan]

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[TeaDidikai]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[CuAnnan]

TeaDidikai

The use of the word theory.

*shoots Tea*  

[TeaDidikai]

reagun ban

TeaDidikai

The use of the word theory.

*shoots Tea*

~staggers, clutching her heart-.... ~ Wait... what did you shoot me with? confused  

[saint dreya]

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[CuAnnan]

phoenix_shadowwolf

i'm not advocating fire and brimstone when one is offended, but rather assertiveness and politely (=not deliberately and knowingly trying to equally offend or hurt the offender) state that you are offended and that you would prefer if the offender does not say such relations in front of you.

I'm good at this kind of thing.
Just the other day, some kid said he was studying to be a druid, so I killed him.
Then there was the fifteen year old Wiccan high priestess I sacraficed too.

I wonder why the spells I used them for didn't work.

.......

*re-reads Dark Book 'o Evil Magjic3k*

.......


Dammit, the recipe called for a furry bunny, not a fluffy bunny.


No wonder Cthulu laughed at me.

Now I have no brain.......