Islam, Judaism, and Christianity - Same God?

[Priestley]

The Amazing Ryuu

Although, what then do you make of the verse that reads as such, and implies that God is not alone wherever he is:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1.

It's an interesting verse depending on the possibilities. Consider a few things:

• What sense sense of 'Logos' was used in the original text? Was it originally used to mean God's word of teaching and commanding, which might have been 'suped up' to make it appear as though it was referring to Jesus, or some other sense that might have been appropriated? Why does it not use the Greek for 'son' or other title? What was the purpose in using 'Logos'?
  
• Was it drawing from ideas about the trinity in Platonic philosophy: Unknown Father, Nous/Logos and the world soul, or any other Greek ideas? Consider that Greece was a bubbling cauldron of thought at the time.
  
• Consider parallels with Genesis and the first thing that was created: light. Light is often an expression used to refer to knowledge, wisdom and learning, e.g. in "enlighten". If the verse refers to the existence of Logos as light, wisdom and teaching, then it might refer to Jesus as the embodiment of these things and emphasise a relationship so close to God that they merge into one, hence Jesus saying he's in the Father and the Father's in him and that they are of one spirit.

Anyway, we need to turn back. I fear we're straying from the thread topic.  

[Eykos]

Touchy subject, but as a Christian one cannot have an aversion to offending another in regards to Christian truth.


My God is Trinitarian, that is, One God in three persons.

Father
Son
Holy Spirit


Islam and Judaisim do not recognise either the Son or the Holy Spirit as being deific.

"They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."
-Quran 5:73

Islam recognises Jesus as a prophet, but does not recognise him as being God, and places Muhammad on an more than equal status with Christ in the line of successive prophets.

Islam also views the Holy Spirit not as an individual person of the Trinity, but as a sort of "force" that Allah gives, and that can be given by angels as well.




Judaism recognises nor addresses either, and awaits the Messiah that we as Christians beleive has already come.


They would view the idea that Christ is God as blasphemy.





So while you as a Muslim pray to the Abrahamic God, in a sense..

..you do not pray to the One God in three persons that Christianity prays to.


..and as Christians, we beleive that there is only one way to obtain Salvation, and that is through Christ.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
-John 14:6


The next verse will be hard for you to read as a Muslim, but it is the Christian approach to Muhammad and Islam.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world
1 John 4:1-3

(The spirit of the Antichrist is not the "Antichrist" bodily that is much talked about these days, but the one behind him, Satan, who counters Christ wherever he find the opportunity)



As easy as it would make things, Christianity is not, and has never been an "all inclusive" faith.

Just as to become a Muslim I would have to state:
"There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet"
by my mouth and by my heart..

..which no Christian can do and still call himelf a Christian..


..to be a Christian you must profess and have faith that Christ is God come to Earth to take the hit that we deserve and that only through Christ can you obtain Salvation..

..which no Muslim can do and still call himself a Muslim, and which is punishable by death as per word of the Quran.



I'm sorry, but we are not in co-equal and co-professing faiths..

..and the Christian God is not Allah.  

[zz1000zz]

Eykos

So while you as a Muslim pray to the Abrahamic God, in a sense..

..you do not pray to the One God in three persons that Christianity prays to.

Plenty of Christians do not accept the Trinity. Others are ambivalent. While the Trinity may be part of your faith, it is incorrect to say it is part of Christianity.

Eykos

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world
1 John 4:1-3

(The spirit of the Antichrist is not the "Antichrist" bodily that is much talked about these days, but the one behind him, Satan, who counters Christ wherever he find the opportunity)

There is no reason to capitalize "antichrist" in that passage. The word "antichrist" does not refer to some mythological figure. It does not refer to the devil. It simply means "a denier of Christ." It is literally "anti-christ."

Eykos

..and the Christian God is not Allah.

While the western world may commonly associate "Allah" with the Islamic faith, that is incorrect. Allah is simply the Hebrew word used to refer to God.

Any Hebrew Christian would be expected to call God Allah.  

[Priestley]

zz1000zz

Eykos

..and the Christian God is not Allah.

While the western world may commonly associate "Allah" with the Islamic faith, that is incorrect. Allah is simply the Hebrew word used to refer to God.

Any Hebrew Christian would be expected to call God Allah.

Actually, I think you are referring to Arab Christians as it's the Arabic term.  

[zz1000zz]

Priestley

zz1000zz

Eykos

..and the Christian God is not Allah.

While the western world may commonly associate "Allah" with the Islamic faith, that is incorrect. Allah is simply the Hebrew word used to refer to God.

Any Hebrew Christian would be expected to call God Allah.

Actually, I think you are referring to Arab Christians as it's the Arabic term.

I meant "Arabic speaking Christians." That is what I get for posting while in class.

Thanks for catching it.  

[Eykos]

zz1000zz

Eykos

So while you as a Muslim pray to the Abrahamic God, in a sense..

..you do not pray to the One God in three persons that Christianity prays to.

Plenty of Christians do not accept the Trinity. Others are ambivalent. While the Trinity may be part of your faith, it is incorrect to say it is part of Christianity.

Eykos

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world
1 John 4:1-3

(The spirit of the Antichrist is not the "Antichrist" bodily that is much talked about these days, but the one behind him, Satan, who counters Christ wherever he find the opportunity)

There is no reason to capitalize "antichrist" in that passage. The word "antichrist" does not refer to some mythological figure. It does not refer to the devil. It simply means "a denier of Christ." It is literally "anti-christ."

Eykos

..and the Christian God is not Allah.

While the western world may commonly associate "Allah" with the Islamic faith, that is incorrect. Allah is simply the Hebrew word used to refer to God.

Any Hebrew Christian would be expected to call God Allah.

On point #1:

Some "Christians" also beleive that Christ and Satan are brothers and that Hell does not exist.

This is the reason the Church put forth the Nicene Creed, by the same authority that it compiled the Bible that rests upon every Christian's bookshelf, so that heresy could never water down that which is true.

The idea that there is no Trinity contradicts, plainly, the Nicene Creed.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father,
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.


This is why doctrine is so important, and why Paul put such an emphasis on correct teaching.

Our Christian faith is not what we make it to be.
Our Christian faith is the Truth, and we change "Us" to fit it, not the other way around.

On point #2

This is a direct quote from scripture, as it is written.
It is in reference to the spirit of the Antichrist, Satan, who is also capitalised in scripture.

Hence the word "The" placed before "Antichrist" in the verse.


On point #3

The Hebrew word for God is Elohim.
In Aramaic, as Christ spoke, and as Christ called out on the Cross
"Eli Eli Lama sabachthani"
..it is "Eli"

Allah is the arabic word for God.

And having read and studied the Quran in detail, I stand by my scripturally based assertion of the truth that the "Allah" that Muslims worship is not the Lord God of Christendom.  

[zz1000zz]

Eykos

On point #1:

Some "Christians" also beleive that Christ and Satan are brothers and that Hell does not exist.

This is the reason the Church put forth the Nicene Creed, by the same authority that it compiled the Bible that rests upon every Christian's bookshelf, so that heresy could never water down that which is true.

The idea that there is no Trinity contradicts, plainly, the Nicene Creed.

I have never heard of any denomination saying Jesus and Satan are brothers. I have heard some say Hell does not exist, based upon scriptural arguments. It is an interesting issue.

On point, saying something contradicts the Nicene Creed means very little to me. The Nicene Creed was written (and rewritten) in face of theological conflict. People did not agree about certain issues. The Nicene Creed was written to support one side of the argument, calling it the "correct" position.

As long as there is a sound, biblical basis for one's beliefs, that person is a Christian. That those beliefs contradict some creed written three hundred years after Jesus's death means nothing.

Eykos

On point #2

This is a direct quote from scripture, as it is written.
It is in reference to the spirit of the Antichrist, Satan, who is also capitalised in scripture.

Hence the word "The" placed before "Antichrist" in the verse.

I do not dispute that passage was found in a Bible as you wrote it. I dispute the translation used by that Bible. The Greek word "antichristoi" does not refer to a singular, mythological entity.

Eykos

On point #3

The Hebrew word for God is Elohim.
In Aramaic, as Christ spoke, and as Christ called out on the Cross
"Eli Eli Lama sabachthani"
..it is "Eli"

Allah is the arabic word for God.

And having read and studied the Quran in detail, I stand by my scripturally based assertion of the truth that the "Allah" that Muslims worship is not the Lord God of Christendom.

Allah is a word used to signify one's highest deity. Any Christian who spoke Arabic would call God "Allah." Non-christian religious people would most likely refer to their god as "Allah."

As for whether or not Islams and Christians worship the same god, here is a simple question. What do you require a person believe to be worshiping the same god as you? Which doctrines or beliefs must they share with you?  

[Eykos]

zz1000zz

Eykos

On point #1:

Some "Christians" also beleive that Christ and Satan are brothers and that Hell does not exist.

This is the reason the Church put forth the Nicene Creed, by the same authority that it compiled the Bible that rests upon every Christian's bookshelf, so that heresy could never water down that which is true.

The idea that there is no Trinity contradicts, plainly, the Nicene Creed.

I have never heard of any denomination saying Jesus and Satan are brothers. I have heard some say Hell does not exist, based upon scriptural arguments. It is an interesting issue.

On point, saying something contradicts the Nicene Creed means very little to me. The Nicene Creed was written (and rewritten) in face of theological conflict. People did not agree about certain issues. The Nicene Creed was written to support one side of the argument, calling it the "correct" position.

As long as there is a sound, biblical basis for one's beliefs, that person is a Christian. That those beliefs contradict some creed written three hundred years after Jesus's death means nothing.

Eykos

On point #2

This is a direct quote from scripture, as it is written.
It is in reference to the spirit of the Antichrist, Satan, who is also capitalised in scripture.

Hence the word "The" placed before "Antichrist" in the verse.

I do not dispute that passage was found in a Bible as you wrote it. I dispute the translation used by that Bible. The Greek word "antichristoi" does not refer to a singular, mythological entity.

Eykos

On point #3

The Hebrew word for God is Elohim.
In Aramaic, as Christ spoke, and as Christ called out on the Cross
"Eli Eli Lama sabachthani"
..it is "Eli"

Allah is the arabic word for God.

And having read and studied the Quran in detail, I stand by my scripturally based assertion of the truth that the "Allah" that Muslims worship is not the Lord God of Christendom.

Allah is a word used to signify one's highest deity. Any Christian who spoke Arabic would call God "Allah." Non-christian religious people would most likely refer to their god as "Allah."

As for whether or not Islams and Christians worship the same god, here is a simple question. What do you require a person believe to be worshiping the same god as you? Which doctrines or beliefs must they share with you?

Mormonism teaches that Christ and Satan were brothers.

As for the Creed, it was written by the same authority that the Bible which you see as the basis for Christian beleif was compiled.

To deny it is to deny the authority of the Church and the Bible altogether.

Christendom falls apart.

Once again, and this is the last time I'll state this.

Christianity is not what we make it. It does not change. Ever.
We do not change the Church to fit ourselves, we change ourselves to fit the Church.



I'm not sure which Greek manuscript you are reading, but "Antichrist" is used extensively to refer to Satan, the one who opposes Christ.



As for whether "Allah" is the Christian God, I dont care by what name what language calls whoever..

I stated, clearly, that the Muslim Allah is NOT the Christian God.

This is the point to be addressed, not a meaningless debate about names.


As for "What one must do to be a Christian", I will not derail this thread into another topic, I've got a thread on Orthodoxy, you can address your question there.  

[zz1000zz]

Eykos

Mormonism teaches that Christ and Satan were brothers.

This is, at best, very unclear. By Mormon teachings, Satan and Christ were both spiritually begotten by God. However, the same is true of all humans. Satan and Jesus have different parentage (Jesus was born of Mary while Satan was never even born), so they are not brothers in the way the word is commonly used.

Eykos

As for the Creed, it was written by the same authority that the Bible which you see as the basis for Christian beleif was compiled.

To deny it is to deny the authority of the Church and the Bible altogether.

Christendom falls apart.

Neither the creed nor the Bible existed for three hundred years after Jesus's death. Why would denying them cause Christendom to fall apart when it survived without them before?

Eykos

I'm not sure which Greek manuscript you are reading, but "Antichrist" is used extensively to refer to Satan, the one who opposes Christ.

The Greek word which is translated into "Antichrist" is not used extensively to refer to Satan in the Bible. That is an invention found only in faulty translations.

As always, it is possible I am mistaken. If you can show me where I am wrong, I will correct myself.

Eykos

As for "What one must do to be a Christian", I will not derail this thread into another topic, I've got a thread on Orthodoxy, you can address your question there.

The issue is perfectly on topic. Judaism, Islam and Christianity all have the same root. If we are to say each has a different "God," we need to define what separates each.  

[The Amazing Ryuu]

Eykos

Mormonism teaches that Christ and Satan were brothers.

KraylorDePanthro

according to my understanding, Jesus is like the Eldest brother, and when Heavenly Father wanted to send someone to guide and bring home mankind, Lucifer said he would go and bring everyone home, by eliminating the free will option, but Jesus said he would go and be an example to them, so they could freely choose to come to Heavenly Father. God went with Jesus plan and Lucifer didn't like it. (though in that context, it's not that really surprising as who could compete with such a perfect older brother, he'd always be better. Only way to get enough attention to rebel, and be the best at being bad, something Jesus refused to be.)

^Written by a resident Mormon. They seem to be pretty upset by that misconception, which I hadn't heard until I was in this guild last year.

Eykos

As for the Creed, it was written by the same authority that the Bible which you see as the basis for Christian beleif was compiled.

To deny it is to deny the authority of the Church and the Bible altogether.

Christendom falls apart.

Oh come now. Do you really think that it's such a fragile institution as to have a few people not agree? That's how all the denominations came about in the first place. We'll end up with another split, call each other heretics, and go on each worshiping in our own way.

Eykos

Once again, and this is the last time I'll state this.

Christianity is not what we make it. It does not change. Ever.
We do not change the Church to fit ourselves, we change ourselves to fit the Church.

When the Church agrees on what it is, then I will believe this. As it is, there are enough interpretations already.

Eykos

I'm not sure which Greek manuscript you are reading, but "Antichrist" is used extensively to refer to Satan, the one who opposes Christ.

"Antichrist" is used to refer to ANYONE who stands against Christ. 1 John 2:18, 1 John 2:22, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7 for example. However, it's my understanding of "The Antichrist" as the TOOL of Satan, he who comes as the Beast, along with his little assistant. The Antichrist will welcome Satan into his heart as Christians do to Christ and start trying to win as many souls to his side before the end.

Eykos

As for whether "Allah" is the Christian God, I dont care by what name what language calls whoever..

I stated, clearly, that the Muslim Allah is NOT the Christian God.

This is the point to be addressed, not a meaningless debate about names.

Now that's like saying a set of cousins don't have the same grandparents because one calls them "Nana and Pop" and the other calls them "Grandma and Grandpa." Besides, the Bible is all ABOUT names, and the meaning of them. Maybe this is more important than you give it credit for. We've already shown that Islam and Christianity share the same roots, that Ishmael and Issac worshiped the same God, each going on to father their own twelve tribes that ended up growing into two different faiths. With, btw, some scary parallels as seen here. How could it not still be the same God as 2k+ years ago?  

[freelance lover]

The Amazing Ryuu

Eykos

As for whether "Allah" is the Christian God, I dont care by what name what language calls whoever..

I stated, clearly, that the Muslim Allah is NOT the Christian God.

This is the point to be addressed, not a meaningless debate about names.

Now that's like saying a set of cousins don't have the same grandparents because one calls them "Nana and Pop" and the other calls them "Grandma and Grandpa." Besides, the Bible is all ABOUT names, and the meaning of them. Maybe this is more important than you give it credit for. We've already shown that Islam and Christianity share the same roots, that Ishmael and Issac worshiped the same God, each going on to father their own twelve tribes that ended up growing into two different faiths. With, btw, some scary parallels as seen here. How could it not still be the same God as 2k+ years ago?

Ryuu summed it up pretty nicely, actually. And that link is very helpful.

I'd also just like to add that even the Hebrew and Christian Bibles refer to God in various names, including but not limited to YHWH, Elohim, Lord, God, I Am, etc. To rule Allah out based on a simple name difference is to disregard the inconsistencies of God's titles in the Bible itself. Besides, Allah is simply Arabic. That's like saying the French aren't worshiping the same God because instead of My God they say Mon Dieu.

I'd also like to add that a good portion of the Qu'ran is based off the Bible. It's like an abbreviated version of the Bible in many ways. There's not as much detail in the Qu'ran as in Christian and Hebrew scriptures because it was expected that converts to Islam would have already been familiar with the scripture in detail. All that was needed was a simple summary of most of the old stories.
 

[Galad Aglaron]

zz1000zz

Priestley

zz1000zz

Eykos

..and the Christian God is not Allah.

While the western world may commonly associate "Allah" with the Islamic faith, that is incorrect. Allah is simply the Hebrew word used to refer to God.

Any Hebrew Christian would be expected to call God Allah.

Actually, I think you are referring to Arab Christians as it's the Arabic term.

I meant "Arabic speaking Christians." That is what I get for posting while in class.

Thanks for catching it.

Both Arabic and Hebrew are Semitic languages, correct? Eli, Elohim and Allah all come from the same root, also present in our word Emmanuel and a lot of angelic names; Rafael, Gabriel, Remiel, Raguel...  

[8Ares8]

Well from my point of view as a nondenominational christian I think that the christian God is the Hebrew God, though the Jews think that only their version of God is the only one((From an outside standpoint the Jews seem like the most arrogant of these three)) and the Islamic God is the way that Ishmael and his decendents worshiped God((it was somewhat alienated from the Hebrew faith))

((the Hebrew Faith is actually quite different from Judaism(they actually genetically traced the lost tribes WOOHOO which disproves Mormon faith) and the lost tribes readily accepted the new testament and christ from what information I've learned my source is Jonathan Cahn from BethIsrael.org))

I left out my personal opinions this is purely what I factually pulled from the top of my head at this moment  

[Weird Twitch]

The God you do not create does not exist. That might sound borderline atheist, or agnostic, but how can you truly believe in God without forming some idea of God in your mind/soul?