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 Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:54 pm
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I really wish you would use punctuation beyond question marks and commas. It makes it really hard to read your posts and pull the meaning out of your words. Especially when they're a little bit garbled.
misssuzy I left the fold 6 years ago cause of all the things I was taught to hate, after learning about the burning times, it shattered my faith, now there's a book going around called Wicca Satan's little white lie,
The burning times was more of a econo-political thing and less a religion thing. That being said, any of the past misdeeds attributed to Christianity should not be used to judge the religion of now. I don't agree with expecting white folk to pay reparations for slavery and I definitely don't agree with stigmatizing a whole religion because its members and authorities made poor choices in the far far history.
Keep in mind too that intelligent Christians are unlikely to say that Wiccans worship Satan. They might say that Wiccans are in the same boat as all pagans, as they would be seen as nonbelievers, but worshiping Satan? I would expect that statement from the idiots that think Harry Potter books and DnD draw children to evil.
So don't pay it any mind.
Quote: I am wiccan and I love Jesus,
...what?
You do realize that Wicca and Christianity are wholly incompatible right? And that Wicca requires initiation to enter?
I think it's more likely that you are looking at a conflict between Christianity and earth based eclectic neopaganism. The good news is that those are a bit less incompatible (but still pretty rough), provided you aren't throwing any extra gods in there.
You won't be able to call yourself a pagan though. Pagan is an umbrella term for either non Abrahamic Monotheism or non Big Five (Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism). So if you're Christian, you would just be an adjusted form of Christianity. Not a "Christian pagan".
Quote: this is a very hard path to be on, but Its were I am and i must go forward, I will do my best to be kind and honest about my beliefs, even though they are strictly forbidden, or am i just a hypocrite for wanting to sing and have the company of others? i think the born again church has declared war on us, why am i going back? I know more people leave paganism and become christian, i left the church and became a pagan.. well i think Jesus went with me.....
I don't know if a blended system is possible. It's been a long time since I had any involvement with Christianity or read the Bible.
But I do think it's entirely possible to follow the philosophical underpinnings of Christianity without necessarily subscribing to all of the metaphysical beliefs.
But really, if you're just doing this because you want a joyous community, then why? There are pagan communities out there too, who are plenty joyous and interconnected.
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Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:37 pm
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Paranormal Zombiiie Quote: In his books, Gerald Gardner used the one 'c' form, Wica, to describe the people involved in the tradition of Witchcraft that he was initiated into. If you check out the newspaper articles on my Gerald Gardner page, you will see him continuing to use the one 'c' spelling in interviews that he gave throughout the 1950s. Similarly, Charles Clark insisted on using Wica and considered the two 'c' form Wicca to be connected with the members of another tradition, associated with the magician and conjurer Charles Cardell, who was linked to hostilities against Gardner. Quote from: http://www.thewica.co.uk/Gardnerian Wica.htm
maenad nuri I no longer have photos, it appears. I'm trying to get the photo of me as skuld uploaded though. |
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Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:38 pm
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Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:42 pm
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Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:02 pm
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Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:13 pm
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Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:44 pm
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Gho the Girl Diamond Leaf Clover Gho the Girl Diamond Leaf Clover Erm...I don't want to start this argument up again, but why are there so many people out there who are insistent on labeling themselves 'Wiccan?' What do you gain from calling yourself Wiccan, instead of something else? Status and/or "cool factor." It seems that some time ago, possibly since the publication of books by SRW, Wicca became THE COOLEST RELIGION EVAH and just like the inception of punk rock, everybody wanted in. ...Should I be ashamed at the fact that I laughed out loud when I read 'THE COOLEST RELIGION EVAH' part? (I have nothing against Wicca, I just thought the way you said that was funny. ^^' ) If you hadn't I would have been sad. I was trying to add some levity, and I'm glad it succeeded. Quote: Yep, you succeeded. (I just read through your post again and giggled. 3nodding ) Thank you for that-I haven't laughed much lately, it did me some good. Thank you for replying though. It was confusing me. I mean, if Wicca is on equal footing with other religions/belief systems, then why would so many people insist on being recognized as a member of it, even when they clearly weren't? confused Probably because, due to tons of misinformation, Wicca is seen as an open orthodoxy as opposed to a closed orthopraxy. Quote: Ah, that explains it. Maybe it's just because I don't label myself as anything yet. (I'm starting out, so until I have a better idea as to what I believe in, practice, etc I just consider myself 'neo-pagan' and hope that I'm not treading on anyone's toes in calling myself that.) If you're a pagan that incorporates what elements can be called "new" then you're a neo-pagan, at least that's what I would assume from the etymology. Quote: Hmmm....I'm not sure if anything I do or believe is considered 'new.' I'll have to read up a bit more and see. smile
Yeah, maybe I should shut up now. sweatdrop Thanks again for your reply though, Gho. 3nodding No, you don't need to shut up. Don't be so hard on yourself. I too am here to learn, but it won't do me any good if you or I constantly silence ourselves. If you begin asking too many questions, we'll tell you, but til then, please, speak up.
Hehe, okies. I'll keep asking questions. 3nodding Sometimes I avoid asking things in case they have already been asked a billion times before, and instead just read what people post, in case they answer my question before I ask it. If not, I keep looking around, or ask then. But I'll try to ask more questions from now on-I do want to learn more. 3nodding |
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Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:03 pm
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:46 pm
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:13 pm
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Violet Song jat Shariff Crew
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:19 pm
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KillerQueen Bash @ TS: You can hold Wiccan beliefs and still love Jesus.
What Wiccan beliefs?
Quote: You can be a buffet-believer, but not a Christian Wiccan. Sorry, darling.
Well, so long as she's not raping cultures or such wink .
Quote: Feel free to call yourself Wiccan, I find it perfectly acceptable;
Actually, it isn't though.
Would you call yourself a medical doctor if you did not have the appropriate training and certification?
What is so awful about calling a spade a spade?
Quote: Just know that when you post in places calling yourself Wiccan without being initiated and the such, you'll get trolled.
Hardly being trolled rolleyes .
If you can not see the difference between being informed and corrected and being trolled, you might want to learn that very quickly.
Life must be hard if you truly think that being corrected is the same thing as being trolled.
Quote: There are other Wiccan traditions than that of the strictly mystery Gardenarian tradition.
Nope, all valid traditions of Wicca include the Mysteries.
There's the Alexandrian tradition, Mohisian, Blue Star, CVW, and I think one or two more I can't recall.
Quote: It's like saying that only Catholics are Christian because Catholics came first. rolleyes
But it isn't.
Catholics are Christians by virtue that they all hold belief in the God of Abraham.
Just like one is Wiccan by virtue that they are initiated and know the correct ritual structures that make up Wicca.
See, Christianity is orthodoxic, or based on correct belief. All you need to do is believe specific things and you're in. Wicca, however, is orthopraxic; it is based on correct practice of rites and rituals. So therefore if you do not know the correct practice, what you are doing is not Wicca. And since in Wicca the only way to learn the correct practices is to be initiated and learn the Mysteries, you can not claim to be Wiccan without initiation, the Mysteries, and the correct ritual structures. |
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:23 pm
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Actually, Wicca specifically was created by Gardener.
Taking Gardner out of Wicca is like taking Jesus out of Christianity.
He created it, whether from whole cloth or from an eclectic blend of older faiths is a point I consider fair debate, however, Wicca is his.
Trying to separate Gardner from Wicca is like trying to separate Henry Ford from Ford motor company. There was no Ford Motor Company before him.
However, not all cars are Fords, and there were plenty of cars before him.
There was no Wicca before Gardener, however, there were plenty of other religions.
Plenty of faiths he took parts from.
The problem is, much like Coke, in some places, people use a brand name rather than the actual items name. Not all carbonated soft drinks are Coke, not all cotton swabs are Q-Tips, not all adhesive bandages are Band-Aids.
Not all Pagan faiths are Wicca, especially not most of the ones claiming so.
If anyone can provide reliable evidence of a religion calling itself Wicca before Gardener, please share.
This isn't trolling, and I don't mean to sound rude, however, I do request some solid scholarship.
Also, Catholicism was not the first Christian faith.
The term Catholic was first recorded used by Ignatius of Antioch in 103 AD, well after the apostles had spread the faith.
It was codified at The First Council of Nicea in 325 AD, arguably.
Well, at least this is where it really started taking shape.
However, there are several Christian groups that were organized before hand.
Edit: Not to pick nits Violet Song jat Shariff, but Catholics are Christians by dint of belief in Jeushua as Messiah, belief in the Christ, not just belief in the god of Abraham, otherwise, Jews, Muslims, and Druj would be Christian as well. ninja
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:40 pm
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KillerQueen Bash  © Robin Wood 1997@ TS:
You can hold Wiccan beliefs and still love Jesus. You can be a buffet-believer, but not a Christian Wiccan. Sorry, darling.
To my knowledge and it's by no means complete, Wicca is based on procedure and ritual, not beliefs. So, provided I'm not completely in left field, holding Wiccan beliefs is sort of a non sequitur in terms.
It just doesn't really make sense.
There's also nothing wrong with buffet believing provided you have a good reason for each thing you bring in. But if you're bringing it in just because it sounds cool, then you really ought to rethink your methods. Because it may sound cool and look cool but it'll get you nowhere spiritually.
Quote: Feel free to call yourself Wiccan, I find it perfectly acceptable; just know that when you post in places calling yourself Wiccan without being initiated and the such, you'll get trolled. There are other Wiccan traditions than that of the strictly mystery Gardenarian tradition. It's like saying that only Catholics are Christian because Catholics came first. rolleyes © Robin Wood 1997
It really isn't acceptable to call yourself Wiccan when you aren't initiated. Wicca is defined by initiation into a coven of appropriate lineage and other things that aren't really revealed to outsiders. So if you're not an initiate, then you aren't a Wiccan. I mean there's really no way to get around that. You aren't a Free Mason if you just call yourself one. You have to be brought in through their methods.
I really should point out too that Christianity is a very poor parallel for Wicca, as the religions work in radically different ways. Christianity is an open religion based on beliefs. If you hold the beliefs then you are of the religion. Which is why Catholicism is just a sect of Christianity and not all of Christianity. But Wicca is not built that way. It is based on practice not on belief. So unless you follow the practices, you are not a part of it. Which is why other groups who claim to be Wiccan on the basis of belief similarities are wrong.
I know it seems unfair to an outsider, but if you think about it private groups do have a right to exclude. You're not forced to incorporate people into your group of friends simply because they feel it's unfair that you pick certain friends for yourself are you? And if someone claimed they were your friend when you hadn't allowed them into your private circle of friends, that would be a bit offending wouldn't it?
Exclusion is not inherently bad. It often has a necessary purpose in private groups like these. Usually to show dedication. So please try not to see it the wrong way. They really aren't out to hurt you or piss you off by keeping you out. |
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:42 pm
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Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:54 pm
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SirynECrow Okay, now I know a lot of paths for Wicca/Pagan/((insert name preferred)) requires initiation, but I seriously doubt that solitary witches are in need of something like that. Only covens initiate. Now I may be wrong since I doubt I've fully read half of the books I own, however I'm fairly certain one does not need initiation to be of any magical beliefs.
Keep in mind that the word witch and the word Wiccan are not necessarily synonyms. You can be a witch without being a Wiccan easily and many witchcraft traditions are not initiatory.
Keep in mind too that Wicca as a religion is based on practice, not belief, so you're sort of talking apples and potatoes when you lump Wicca in with many of the belief based pagan faiths.
Quote: That said Wiccan/Pagan/((insert other)) and Christianity do not mix. Paradox is right. Forgetting all the differences in beliefs, Christianity stole ((used/borrowed: as you want to see it)) many practices to convert the masses to their ideas and beliefs and then persecuted those that practiced magic.
...o_O
That's not what I said though...
I said that Christianity is incompatible with Paganism as an umbrella term because Pagan by definition means non Abrahamic or non Big Five. And Christianity is both Abrahamic and a part of the Big Five. I didn't say a thing about persecution, idea absorption and etcetera.
It's a definition issue. Persecution and absorption (if they even happened in the way you said they did and I'm not going to get into that now) wouldn't be a sign of incompatibility with the concepts themselves. Absorption if anything would make them more compatible. |
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