DB's Ecclectic Christian Heresy. Oaths added.

[Ashley the Bee]

Gho the Girl

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Reconciliation

I like the sound of this, what does this entail?

It goes together with Confession. Sins are confessed and forgiven, and then the individual is reconciled to YHWH. ^_~

Yeshua began this following his crucifixion when he meets with the remaining Apostles, as is described in the Gospel of John:

John 20:21-23

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

In Catholicism it follows that Holy Orders, conferred by a member in Apostolic succession to another also passes along this grace to bind and loose sins.

Gho the Girl

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Anointing of the Sick

If we're performing communiont with the sick and sending prayers, goodwill, etc. then I'm down with that.

Anointing of the Sick is a ritual that, in my mind, bears some similarity to Baptism, actually. It is sometimes called "Last Rites", in fact, and is usually performed on an individual who is close to death. The rite, if I'm recalling correctly, includes anointing the individual with oil and conferring forgiveness for any sins the person may have, in preparation for that individual being judged.

Gho the Girl

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Confirmation

Meh, I don't hold a sacrament that signifies the bond with one's church all that holy. Churches are good, and I like the one I go to, but churches aren't so spiritually necessary that we need to signify our bond with an organisation. I'd rather that bond be signified with communion.

Not to try and push you in any particular way, but I think you may have a slight misunderstanding of Confirmation?

Confirmation, as it relates to Catholic Tradition, is the adult version of Baptism, in that both confer the Holy Spirit into the individual. Confirmation is the swearing of an oath between that person and YHWH that she will be faithful to him, do her best to avoid the temptation of sin, etc... So it's not really about the church (as in the building) as much as it's about the Church (the collective "Body of Christ" )

Gho the Girl

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Holy Orders

I honor churches that do these things, and I can see how they can help a church run and preach better. I might even become one someday.

I wonder if, given this is your path, if you have any... how to put this, mentors, maybe, to draw from?

I ask that here because it seems as though it could be related to an adapted view of Holy Orders. That is, perhaps you feel as though the title of priest is one that should be given by another rather than assumed in your path.

So, Holy Orders is less about the preparation to be a priest, which is received by years of study of religion and philosophy (in particular) at a seminary, and more about the actual rite of initiation into the priesthood.

In Catholicism, Holy Orders, for a man, includes him into the Apostolic lineage.

So, yes! Is there any sort of initiation in your path to the priesthood? If so, may both men and women be initiated?

Gho the Girl

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Marriage

I assume we're leaving "civil marriage" behidn for a second.

Yes, I do hold this sacrament.

Any particular differences? May a marriage be broken apart? May more than two individuals be married? Or members of same sex?  

[Gho the Girl]

Ashley the Bee

Gho the Girl

Quote:

Reconciliation

I like the sound of this, what does this entail?

It goes together with Confession. Sins are confessed and forgiven, and then the individual is reconciled to YHWH. ^_~

Yeshua began this following his crucifixion when he meets with the remaining Apostles, as is described in the Gospel of John:

John 20:21-23

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

In Catholicism it follows that Holy Orders, conferred by a member in Apostolic succession to another also passes along this grace to bind and loose sins.

I'm very down with it though, however, my definition of "sin" is probably going to be very different from Catholicism's understanding.

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Gho the Girl

Quote:

Anointing of the Sick

If we're performing communiont with the sick and sending prayers, goodwill, etc. then I'm down with that.

Anointing of the Sick is a ritual that, in my mind, bears some similarity to Baptism, actually. It is sometimes called "Last Rites", in fact, and is usually performed on an individual who is close to death. The rite, if I'm recalling correctly, includes anointing the individual with oil and conferring forgiveness for any sins the person may have, in preparation for that individual being judged.

I'm down with providing comfort, but I don't buy into Judgement. I don't know if there is an afterlife, and I don't think much about it. That's not where my focus is. If anything, I'd want last rites to be a time to honor the dying, in recognition that these may be their last moments alive.

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Gho the Girl

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Confirmation

Meh, I don't hold a sacrament that signifies the bond with one's church all that holy. Churches are good, and I like the one I go to, but churches aren't so spiritually necessary that we need to signify our bond with an organisation. I'd rather that bond be signified with communion.

Not to try and push you in any particular way, but I think you may have a slight misunderstanding of Confirmation?

Confirmation, as it relates to Catholic Tradition, is the adult version of Baptism, in that both confer the Holy Spirit into the individual. Confirmation is the swearing of an oath between that person and YHWH that she will be faithful to him, do her best to avoid the temptation of sin, etc... So it's not really about the church (as in the building) as much as it's about the Church (the collective "Body of Christ" )

I covered that in my Baptism section. I'm very down with people making oaths to YHVH.

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Gho the Girl

Quote:

Holy Orders

I honor churches that do these things, and I can see how they can help a church run and preach better. I might even become one someday.

I wonder if, given this is your path, if you have any... how to put this, mentors, maybe, to draw from?

I ask that here because it seems as though it could be related to an adapted view of Holy Orders. That is, perhaps you feel as though the title of priest is one that should be given by another rather than assumed in your path.

So, Holy Orders is less about the preparation to be a priest, which is received by years of study of religion and philosophy (in particular) at a seminary, and more about the actual rite of initiation into the priesthood.

In Catholicism, Holy Orders, for a man, includes him into the Apostolic lineage.

So, yes! Is there any sort of initiation in your path to the priesthood? If so, may both men and women be initiated?

I don't know. I don't think there's really a truly formalised way. Many have the title of Preist or Father or Pastor or Reverend, meaning they should be a spiritual leader, yet are so far from God in heart. I'd say it'd have to be a mixture of both education and self spiritual growth. If that person has reached a level of Understanding that they can share this with others, and they are willing to be titled as preists, guides, reverends, or what have you, they are of the Holy Order.

There is no man or woman in God, there is only people, there is only us. All who can attain this Understanding and have this desire to be a shepard may be Preists/Preistesses.

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Gho the Girl

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Marriage

I assume we're leaving "civil marriage" behidn for a second.

Yes, I do hold this sacrament.

Any particular differences?

Legal marriage is mired in Law. What works wonderfully for God may not work so well in one of man's communal illusions.

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May a marriage be broken apart?

They may leave eachother's presence, but I'd like to think such a union is remarkable enough to last beyond this.

I view the rite of marriage not so much as a mere title placed upon people by the church/government. A true marriage is one of the deepest bonds we can create with other human beings in the name of God. Many people "marry" in the eyes of the church or the eyes of the government, but they aren't always married in the eyes of God.

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May more than two individuals be married?

As long as the love is true, and they dedicate their bonds to eachother and to God, I don't see why not.

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Or members of same sex?

This is the same.

There is no man or woman in God, there is only people, there is only Love. God is love, and from love goodness flows. Truly Unconditional love shared between two or more individuals is wondrous and rare, and it saddens me that so many of my sisters and brothers get caught up in gender and sex, things which matter not to God, nor to Agape, and so it should not matter to us.  

[Ashley the Bee]

Gho the Girl

I'm very down with it though, however, my definition of "sin" is probably going to be very different from Catholicism's understanding.

Ohho! Now I'm intrigued. What is sin?

Gho the Girl

I'm down with providing comfort, but I don't buy into Judgement. I don't know if there is an afterlife, and I don't think much about it. That's not where my focus is. If anything, I'd want last rites to be a time to honor the dying, in recognition that these may be their last moments alive.

Ah, I see. Hmm... I want to ask you many questions about this, but they're all aimed at an afterlife which you've just said you don't know much about. =)

Gho the Girl

I covered that in my Baptism section. I'm very down with people making oaths to YHVH.

It's true! I guess my question, and maybe Tea's, was, do you think there is something like this in your path, in some form?

Actually, I guess your path has a similar thing as an adult baptism, doesn't it?

Gho the Girl

I don't know. I don't think there's really a truly formalised way. Many have the title of Preist or Father or Pastor or Reverend, meaning they should be a spiritual leader, yet are so far from God in heart. I'd say it'd have to be a mixture of both education and self spiritual growth. If that person has reached a level of Understanding that they can share this with others, and they are willing to be titled as preists, guides, reverends, or what have you, they are of the Holy Order.

Ah, so, in your path, "Priest" or "Priestess" is a title which is assumed by the individual after they feel they are ready for it?

Gho the Girl

There is no man or woman in God, there is only people, there is only us. All who can attain this Understanding and have this desire to be a shepard may be Preists/Preistesses.

=D

You are awesome. That is all.  

[Gho the Girl]

Ashley the Bee

Gho the Girl

I'm very down with it though, however, my definition of "sin" is probably going to be very different from Catholicism's understanding.

Ohho! Now I'm intrigued. What is sin?

Anything that contradicts Agape, i.e. anti-loving.

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Gho the Girl

I'm down with providing comfort, but I don't buy into Judgement. I don't know if there is an afterlife, and I don't think much about it. That's not where my focus is. If anything, I'd want last rites to be a time to honor the dying, in recognition that these may be their last moments alive.

Ah, I see. Hmm... I want to ask you many questions about this, but they're all aimed at an afterlife which you've just said you don't know much about. =)

I don't take a position on it, nor do I want to. What will come will come, I'm more concerned about the here and now. Why wait for an afterlife when the Kingdom of Heaven is right here?

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Gho the Girl

I covered that in my Baptism section. I'm very down with people making oaths to YHVH.

It's true! I guess my question, and maybe Tea's, was, do you think there is something like this in your path, in some form?

Maybe, but I'm waiting to find out what exactly that oath will be. I made an oath lightly previously in my life, I don't want to make the same mistake.

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Actually, I guess your path has a similar thing as an adult baptism, doesn't it?

Yep.

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Gho the Girl

I don't know. I don't think there's really a truly formalised way. Many have the title of Preist or Father or Pastor or Reverend, meaning they should be a spiritual leader, yet are so far from God in heart. I'd say it'd have to be a mixture of both education and self spiritual growth. If that person has reached a level of Understanding that they can share this with others, and they are willing to be titled as preists, guides, reverends, or what have you, they are of the Holy Order.

Ah, so, in your path, "Priest" or "Priestess" is a title which is assumed by the individual after they feel they are ready for it?

No, not entirely.

It's a difficult thing to define. And if I give a simple definition, many who shouldn't be preists or preistesses will slip through the loopholes. Plenty of people feel they are worthy/ready to be priests/preistesses but aren't. One mustn't just be willing, one must attain Understanding, which isn't measurable by some objective standard. This isn't just a matter of knowledge, it's a matter of heart, of not only comprehension, but incorporation and rebirth through this knowledge. Many know what Agape means but so very few truly do their utmost to live within it, for example.

This isn't something that we can obtain on our own; we can strive for it, as I feel I should, but ultimately I think that such a title is given and recieved more than it is obtained and taken.

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Gho the Girl

There is no man or woman in God, there is only people, there is only us. All who can attain this Understanding and have this desire to be a shepard may be Preists/Preistesses.

=D

You are awesome. That is all.

If you say so, I won't reject a compliment. Thank you.  

[rmcdra]

Very beautiful. I think you got it smile . I do understand your concept of priesthood btw. I can't fully put it in words either but I get where you are coming from.  

[Ashley the Bee]

Gho the Girl

Anything that contradicts Agape, i.e. anti-loving.

*nod**nod* That makes sense, and is certainly what I've come to understand as well.

My next question is, traditionally, one says that sin "separates" an individual from YHWH. Is this what you understand as well, or is it something different?

Another thing, possibly related, depending on how you view that, is about the longer term consequences of sin. That is, if one sins (breaks agape), does that make it more likely the person will continue to live outside of agape?

Said another way, is sin a thing or a state, or is it simple a result?

Gho the Girl

I don't take a position on it, nor do I want to. What will come will come, I'm more concerned about the here and now. Why wait for an afterlife when the Kingdom of Heaven is right here?

*nod**nod* I think, for all my desire to avoid the "problems" I see in some people's obsession with death and almost hatred of the world, I still sometimes focus on it too much.

But but, it seems it will have an interesting outcome anyway! I wonder, if you don't mind, if you could expand upon that phrasing, "the Kingdom of Heaven is right here"?

Gho the Girl

No, not entirely.

It's a difficult thing to define. And if I give a simple definition, many who shouldn't be preists or preistesses will slip through the loopholes. Plenty of people feel they are worthy/ready to be priests/preistesses but aren't. One mustn't just be willing, one must attain Understanding, which isn't measurable by some objective standard. This isn't just a matter of knowledge, it's a matter of heart, of not only comprehension, but incorporation and rebirth through this knowledge. Many know what Agape means but so very few truly do their utmost to live within it, for example.

This isn't something that we can obtain on our own; we can strive for it, as I feel I should, but ultimately I think that such a title is given and recieved more than it is obtained and taken.

Okay =) I'm actually really trying to ask a much more simple question than you're attempting to answer, but I think you've answered it within that.

My real question wasn't, "By what means does one become a priest", and actually just, "In your path, does one say, 'I'm a priest' or does someone else say, 'You are a priest'." It sounds like it's the latter.

When that happens is complicated and based on progress that may not be easily explained, but, in the end, the title is given rather than taken. Thanks!  

[TeaDidikai]

Here's a question to you Sweets:
Can someone who is not of your path, who is still understanding, act as clergy for you?  

[Gho the Girl]

TeaDidikai

Here's a question to you Sweets:
Can someone who is not of your path, who is still understanding, act as clergy for you?

Yes, if they are willing. I don't want to force another to be of a Holy Order just for me, but if they are willing and they are of understanding I'd be honored if they were.  

[Gho the Girl]

Here's an article that keeps making me cry in hope and wonder.

Link.  

[TeaDidikai]

Gho the Girl

Yes, if they are willing. I don't want to force another to be of a Holy Order just for me, but if they are willing and they are of understanding I'd be honored if they were.

Fair enough. I think Cu is a priest to a young Catholic man.  

[Gho the Girl]

TeaDidikai

Gho the Girl

Yes, if they are willing. I don't want to force another to be of a Holy Order just for me, but if they are willing and they are of understanding I'd be honored if they were.

Fair enough. I think Cu is a priest to a young Catholic man.

*nods* Not a bad deal there.  

[rmcdra]

About the true name thing. I found something you might find of interest

The Gospel of Truth

Those whose name he knew first were called last, so that the one who has knowledge is he whose name the Father has pronounced. For he whose name has not been spoken is ignorant. Indeed, how shall one hear if his name has not been uttered? For he who remains ignorant until the end is a creature of forgetfulness and will perish with it. If this is not so, why have these wretches no name, why do they have no sound? Hence, if one has knowledge, he is from above. If he is called, he hears, he replies, and he turns toward him who called him and he ascends to him and he knows what he is called. Since he has knowledge, he does the will of him who called him. He desires to please him and he finds rest. He receives a certain name. He who thus is going to have knowledge knows whence he came and whither he is going. He knows it as a person who, having become intoxicated, has turned from his drunkenness and having come to himself, has restored what is his own.

 

[Jacobzilla]

Christianity's the queerest religion man ever invented.
How do I summon/communicate with spirits? Give me the quick and easy explanation.  

[TeaDidikai]

Jacobzilla

Christianity's the queerest religion man ever invented.

Insults are not tolerated in this guild, least of all in this subforum.