Snape: Good or Evil?

[Ralph Harris The Third]

Ernie

All quotes not identified are from the essay i_heart_ron linked to us.

Quote:

Snape's job for Voldemort is to spy on Dumbledore.

Um, no. Snape's job was to be a spy at Hogwarts. Dumbledore played a large role, yes, but the author is forgetting about Le Boy Who Lived attending the school.

Quote:

Why would Snape need to stay at Hogwarts then?

Because there are other high-ranking members from the Order there. Professor McGonagall, for instance.

And, of course, HARRY POTTER, y'know, the kid Voldemort has been hunting since before Harry's birth.

Quote:

Shouldn't he be more concerned about Draco not being able to do what Voldemort has ordered him to do?

If Draco is expelled, it means he cannot carry out his orders, since he kind of won't be at the school to get to Dumbledore.

Quote:

If Snape was indeed afraid of death, in the same way the other DEs and even Voldemort was

I'd just like to point out that it was never stated that ALL the other DEs were afraid of death. Panda Chi's right, s/he does make many assumptions.

Quote:

But really, why not a Cruciatus Curse?

Because he had stopped other DEs from using the Cruciatus Curse on Harry. He knew they did not have the time nor the priviledge of doing that.

Quote:

Why just a big magical slap in the face?

As Panda Chi said, that ain't a slap. Slaps aren't 'white-hot'. Sounds more like some sort of small fireball or something.

^ But the above are little things. It doesn't explain some other stuff... ^

In Defense of S******

[HBP, ch. 3...]

After this, I expect Snape told Dumbledore about 'the plan', about Voldemort ordering Draco to do something, and about the Unbreakable Vow that he had to make. Then Dumbledore did something quite curious - he gave Snape the DADA job - a job which he had refused to give Snape for several years now, a job which he knows for a fact to be jinxed.

"Oh, he definitely wanted the Defense Against the Dark Arts job," said Dumbledore. "The aftermath of our little meeting proved that. You see, we have never been able to keep a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher for longer than a year since I refused the post to Lord Voldemort." [HBP, ch. 20]

Now, why would he do such a thing? Giving Snape the DADA job is tantamount to saying 'I expect your resignation at the end of the year. This will be your last year.' Did Dumbledore foresee something? Did he expect something? Or did he want Snape to go somewhere else after this year? Perhaps, the other side? Whatever his reason for giving the job to Snape, one thing is for sure, he expected this will be Snape's last year at Hogwarts.

You haven't explained that. And why else would Hermione (and Dumbledore) keep on repeating, "I trust Snape," or "Dumbledore trusts Snape."
 

[Panda Chi]

Kiyitai

In Defense of S******

[HBP, ch. 3...]

After this, I expect Snape told Dumbledore about 'the plan', about Voldemort ordering Draco to do something, and about the Unbreakable Vow that he had to make. Then Dumbledore did something quite curious - he gave Snape the DADA job - a job which he had refused to give Snape for several years now, a job which he knows for a fact to be jinxed.

"Oh, he definitely wanted the Defense Against the Dark Arts job," said Dumbledore. "The aftermath of our little meeting proved that. You see, we have never been able to keep a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher for longer than a year since I refused the post to Lord Voldemort." [HBP, ch. 20]

Now, why would he do such a thing? Giving Snape the DADA job is tantamount to saying 'I expect your resignation at the end of the year. This will be your last year.' Did Dumbledore foresee something? Did he expect something? Or did he want Snape to go somewhere else after this year? Perhaps, the other side? Whatever his reason for giving the job to Snape, one thing is for sure, he expected this will be Snape's last year at Hogwarts.

I don't know why he would do something like that. Perhaps Dumbledore wanted Snape to feel more respected, and therefore gave him the job that he wanted. Or perhaps, seeing as no one has stayed there for over a year since Riddle was denied the job Snape was the only person who would take it. I don't know, but that doesn't sepecifically prove that Snape is good.

Also, this whole essay is based off of the assumption that Snape would be stupid enough to do the Unbreakable Vow without knowing what 'the Plan' was. Which I doubt he would. This essay claims that Snape 'had' to do it, but he easily could have at least tried to lie his way out of it, but he didn't.

Kiyitai

And why else would Hermione (and Dumbledore) keep on repeating, "I trust Snape," or "Dumbledore trusts Snape."

Hermione trusting Snape doesn't prove anything at all, in fact, I don't even think it helps your argument. Hermione, though she's smart, is only saying "Dumbledore trusts Snape" because Dumbledore has made it known on countless occations that he trusts Snape. I really don't see how Hermione has anything to do with this debate at all.

Dumbledore, on the other hand, is still human. He can make mistakes about who he trusts just as well as anyone can. Saying that 'Dumbledore trusts Snape' doesn't prove that Snape is trustworthy.

 

[Ralph Harris The Third]

It is possible that even if he DID know what the 'Plan' was, he would have had to made the Unforgivable Vow. If Snape was trying for Voldemort's, Bellatrix's, and Narcissa's trust, then he would have to go along with it. If he didn't, Bellatrix would call him a coward and that he was standing up for Dumbledore and did not wish to kill him.

 

[Ralph Harris The Third]

Panda Chi

I don't know why he would do something like that. Perhaps Dumbledore wanted Snape to feel more respected(1), and therefore gave him the job that he wanted. Or perhaps, seeing as no one has stayed there for over a year since Riddle was denied the job Snape was the only person who would take it(2). I don't know, but that doesn't sepecifically prove that Snape is good.

In addition,

1) Why would Dumbledore want Snape to feel more respected?
2) In Harry's Fifth Year, nobody would take the job, and yet, Dumbledore still did not let Snape become the DADA teacher.

 

[Panda Chi]

Kiyitai

It is possible that even if he DID know what the 'Plan' was, he would have had to made the Unforgivable Vow. If Snape was trying for Voldemort's, Bellatrix's, and Narcissa's trust, then he would have to go along with it. If he didn't, Bellatrix would call him a coward and that he was standing up for Dumbledore and did not wish to kill him.

But what good would his cover be if no one will trust him after he kills Dumbledore? Also, as I have said before, Dumbledore is an improtant guy. Snape, I am sure, would at least try to lie his way out before consulting to kill Dumbledore without his permission. People keep making it sound like "Oh, if he didn't do the Unbreakable Vow they would know he's a spy!" Well, no. Not really. Denying Bellatrix and Narcissa wouldn't be like denying Voldemort.

And even if he didn't know what the Plan was, I highly doubt he would make the Unbreakable Vow if he didn't know exactly what he was binding himself to.

Kiyitai

1) Why would Dumbledore want Snape to feel more respected?

To keep him from returning to the dark side? I don't know, I've always found that Snape was rather bitter from not being able to teach the DADA class.

Kiyitai

2) In Harry's Fifth Year, nobody would take the job, and yet, Dumbledore still did not let Snape become the DADA teacher.

Yes, but they did get someone, didn't they? And look what happened to her? The whole school went against her and she got attacked by centaurs. Maybe the Ministry told Dumbledore to let Snape do it, as Snape did want the job.

 

[Ralph Harris The Third]

Panda Chi

Yes, but they did get someone, didn't they? And look what happened to her? The whole school went against her and she got attacked by centaurs. Maybe the Ministry told Dumbledore to let Snape do it, as Snape did want the job.

Perhaps, but this is under the assumption that the Ministry had something to do with it. Just like we're under the assumption that Snape didn't know what the Plan was when he made the Unbreakable Vow. wink

Eh. I just wanted to say you're a great person to debate with (not like my friends who just go 'Snape is evil! Snape is evil! Didn't you read the sixth book?' xd

 

[Panda Chi]

Kiyitai

Perhaps, but this is under the assumption that the Ministry had something to do with it. Just like we're under the assumption that Snape didn't know what the Plan was when he made the Unbreakable Vow. wink

I believe the Ministry did have something to do with it. Umbridge was from the Ministry, and I believe it was the Ministry that appointed her. Do you really think Dumbledore would have willingly have someone as rediculus as Umbridge teach DADA? I'll see if I can find something in the books, though.

Also, I highly doubt Snape would be stupid enough to make an Unbreakable Vow if he had no idea what the plan was. =O

Kiyitai

Eh. I just wanted to say you're a great person to debate with (not like my friends who just go 'Snape is evil! Snape is evil! Didn't you read the sixth book?' xd

Aw, thanks. <33

 

[Ralph Harris The Third]

Not stupid, no. But most likely from the moment Narcissa asked him to do the Unforgivable Vow he was thinking ahead - that's what Snape, or any smart spy, does, right? - so he was thinking ahead, and he thinks about what happens if he says no.

"I cannot," said Snape, suddenly jerking away. Narcissa's eyes blurred with tears.
"Severus, please," she begged.
Snape turned away. "I cannot," he repeated. Bellatrix gave a raucous laugh.
"I knew it!" she said with a triumphant glimmer in her black eyes. "You do not want to help Draco because you do not want to kill Dumbledore! You are loyal to him, not the Dark Lord!"

So, therefore, he cannot. He HAS to. HE can't admit he doesn't know what it is, and no doubt Cissa and Bella already know Occlumency, so what can he do?

 

[Panda Chi]

Kiyitai

Not stupid, no. But most likely from the moment Narcissa asked him to do the Unforgivable Vow he was thinking ahead - that's what Snape, or any smart spy, does, right? - so he was thinking ahead, and he thinks about what happens if he says no.

"I cannot," said Snape, suddenly jerking away. Narcissa's eyes blurred with tears.
"Severus, please," she begged.
Snape turned away. "I cannot," he repeated. Bellatrix gave a raucous laugh.
"I knew it!" she said with a triumphant glimmer in her black eyes. "You do not want to help Draco because you do not want to kill Dumbledore! You are loyal to him, not the Dark Lord!"

So, therefore, he cannot. He HAS to. HE can't admit he doesn't know what it is, and no doubt Cissa and Bella already know Occlumency, so what can he do?

>.>;; Was that a quote from the book?

 

[[.Freddie.]]

Kiyitai

Not stupid, no. But most likely from the moment Narcissa asked him to do the Unforgivable Vow he was thinking ahead - that's what Snape, or any smart spy, does, right? - so he was thinking ahead, and he thinks about what happens if he says no.

"I cannot," said Snape, suddenly jerking away. Narcissa's eyes blurred with tears.
"Severus, please," she begged.
Snape turned away. "I cannot," he repeated. Bellatrix gave a raucous laugh.
"I knew it!" she said with a triumphant glimmer in her black eyes. "You do not want to help Draco because you do not want to kill Dumbledore! You are loyal to him, not the Dark Lord!"

So, therefore, he cannot. He HAS to. HE can't admit he doesn't know what it is, and no doubt Cissa and Bella already know Occlumency, so what can he do?

Sure, something like that could happen. But that would be if he just simpley refused. He could say something along the lines of "Unless I know for sure that the Dark Lord wants me to, I will not make the Unbreakable Vow with you" (I'm not a writer, but something like that). But he didn't even try to lie his way out. If Voldemort specifically told him to make that vow, than I can understand that he would. But Bella and Cissy are not Voldy. =O

Also, why does everyone automatically assume that every Death Eater/Order member knows Occlumency? I always thought it was something that only certain people knew. Oh well, maybe not. =/

 

[[Ernie]]

Kiyitai

^ But the above are little things. It doesn't explain some other stuff... ^

In Defense of S******

You haven't explained that. And why else would Hermione (and Dumbledore) keep on repeating, "I trust Snape," or "Dumbledore trusts Snape."

Of course not. Because I AGREE with it. I was refuting the tiny things in their that didn't make sense to BETTER the essay.

Panda Chi

I don't know why he would do something like that. Perhaps Dumbledore wanted Snape to feel more respected, and therefore gave him the job that he wanted.

How would giving Snape the post of DADA make him feel more respected? neutral Yeah, he wants the job. But I don't think he was bitter for not having the job.

Panda Chi

Also, this whole essay is based off of the assumption that Snape would be stupid enough to do the Unbreakable Vow without knowing what 'the Plan' was. Which I doubt he would. This essay claims that Snape 'had' to do it, but he easily could have at least tried to lie his way out of it, but he didn't.

And there's also the possibility that Snape did not want to continue lying, as Bellatrix was already pretty suspicious of him, or could not come up with something to cover up why he could not take the vow.

What was he supposed to say? If he said, "Sorry, can't.", he'd would've been asked why, mostly likely by Bellatrix.

Kiyitai

2) In Harry's Fifth Year, nobody would take the job, and yet, Dumbledore still did not let Snape become the DADA teacher.

heart I had never thought of that. 3nodding Good point.

Panda Chi

Denying Bellatrix and Narcissa wouldn't be like denying Voldemort.

But that's how Bellatrix might take it. Bellatrix hates Snape, thinks he's a spy, and wouldn't you think she'd take any oppurtunity to give him the boot?

Panda Chi

Yes, but they did get someone, didn't they?

Yeah, the Ministry did. They appointed someone. If Dumbledore had wanted to give Snape the job, why not when he couldn't find anyone else? The Ministry could only appoint someone if the Headmaster could not find someone for the job. Dumbles couldn't find anyone, so the Ministry did it for you.

Panda Chi

I believe the Ministry did have something to do with it. Umbridge was from the Ministry, and I believe it was the Ministry that appointed her. Do you really think Dumbledore would have willingly have someone as rediculus as Umbridge teach DADA? I'll see if I can find something in the books, though.

Also, I highly doubt Snape would be stupid enough to make an Unbreakable Vow if he had no idea what the plan was. =O

Umbridge WAS appointed by the Ministry.

And that last line is your opinion. There are others who believe differently, quite obviously xd

[Fredrick]

Also, why does everyone automatically assume that every Death Eater/Order member knows Occlumency? I always thought it was something that only certain people knew. Oh well, maybe not. =/

The only DEs that we know of so far are capable of Occlumency are Bellatrix, Draco and Snape. It is highly expected that Narcissa knows it as well.

Panda Chi

But what good would his cover be if no one will trust him after he kills Dumbledore?

That, above all else, is a very good point. The only thing I can think of to refute it is that maybe Snape was thinking of a way to wriggle out of it, or perhaps Dumbledore had known they were plotting to kill him (he had caught onto their plan to steal the prophecy the year before), and perhaps told Snape to watch out for clues to it.  

[[.Freddie.]]

[Ernie]

Umbridge WAS appointed by the Ministry.

I think I have to agree with Panda Chi on this one. Umbridge WAS appointed by the Ministry and look how that turned out. That whole year was chaos thanks to the Ministry's choice in DADA teachers. Would Dumbledore want to repeat that mistake?

[Ernie]

The only DEs that we know of so far are capable of Occlumency are Bellatrix, Draco and Snape. It is highly expected that Narcissa knows it as well.

Bellatrix and Darco know Occlumency? Oh. Sorry, didn't know that. *cough*

(You're sig makes me smile. =) )  

[Ralph Harris The Third]

Dumbledore doesn't want Snape to lose his job if he takes the DADA job. The DADA job is cursed, remember? Therefore, he doesn't give Snape the job.

But when he finds out that Snape has to either 1) die by the end of the school year or 2) kill him by the end of the school year, (we're assuming Snape tells Dumbledore about the Unbreakable Vow, of course) and Dumbledore is short one DADA teacher, and Snape wants the DADA job...

Well, the rest is obvious.

And Dumbledore probably didn't worry about Umbridge -> he knew she wouldn't last longer than a year.

Or something. Am I spewing nonsense?

 

[[.Freddie.]]

Kiyitai

Dumbledore doesn't want Snape to lose his job if he takes the DADA job. The DADA job is cursed, remember? Therefore, he doesn't give Snape the job.

But when he finds out that Snape has to either 1) die by the end of the school year or 2) kill him by the end of the school year, (we're assuming Snape tells Dumbledore about the Unbreakable Vow, of course) and Dumbledore is short one DADA teacher, and Snape wants the DADA job...

Well, the rest is obvious.

And Dumbledore probably didn't worry about Umbridge -> he knew she wouldn't last longer than a year.

Or something. Am I spewing nonsense?

The problem with that would be that then Dumbledore would have known about the 'Plan' from the beginning of the school year. Which means he would have plenty of time to tell someone what was happening so that people would actually be able to trust Snape again after he kills Dumbledore.