An Introduction to Goth music and subculture

[Isobel Bellamy]

Mrs. Pink Eyes

Quote:

Essentials of Darkwave:

* Joy Division - Closer (1980)
* The Cure - Pornography (1982)

Joy Division is more of an early-goth or post-punk essential. Darkwave essential is something by Dead Can Dance.

Why is there a gothic-metal section in a Goth music thread? It makes little to no sense.

PS:
Rozz was more important than Depeche Mode for Goth-Rock, even though he drifted through both.

The Darkwave section was lifted from another source as I was very tired when I amended this thread so forward any complaints to that author not me. Indeed, Joy Division is post-punk and not goth or darkwave, but Closer is of note to those interested in Darkwave which is why it was suggested.

There's a gothic-metal section in a goth music thread because of the first word used to describe that genre of music Gothic-metal, it is heavily influenced by goth-rock and if you notice it's in a separte post entiled "if you like goth you might like these", implying that it is differnet to actual goth-rock which it is (also note under "what is not goth" eg, screaming and loud guitars)

And yes, Rozz was influential, as was Depeche Mode, if you ask any one who is even just a little educated on goth they will list Depeche Mode (if a little incorrcetly as they are new-wave) as goth, because they did influence goth. Rozz Williams and Christian Death were influential in the American goth scene more so than the UK scene, so that is why I haven't listed in the prominence you would like it to be as I am British and so not exposed as much to the bands big in America.


Please take note that I have claimed I'm a metal-head, not a goth, I don't know everything on goth but I know some, and I felt it was a good idea to have a thread on goth seeing as this is a goth guild. This guide is meant as a loose introduction to goth, not the be all and end all font of knowlege.  

[Mrs. Pink Eyes]

Quote:

The Darkwave section was lifted from another source as I was very tired when I amended this thread so forward any complaints to that author not me. Indeed, Joy Division is post-punk and not goth or darkwave, but Closer is of note to those interested in Darkwave which is why it was suggested.

I'd be careful when getting certian things off sites. Though, saying the album Closer is something darkwave fans might like is almost blasphemy.

Quote:

There's a gothic-metal section in a goth music thread because of the first word used to describe that genre of music Gothic-metal, it is heavily influenced by goth-rock and if you notice it's in a separte post entiled "if you like goth you might like these", implying that it is differnet to actual goth-rock which it is (also note under "what is not goth" eg, screaming and loud guitars)

Maybe it's me, but all the goths I know rarely like more than two metal bands in general. It's not them being narrow-minded about music, but it's pretty much the polar opposite.

Quote:

And yes, Rozz was influential, as was Depeche Mode, if you ask any one who is even just a little educated on goth they will list Depeche Mode (if a little incorrcetly as they are new-wave) as goth, because they did influence goth. Rozz Williams and Christian Death were influential in the American goth scene more so than the UK scene, so that is why I haven't listed in the prominence you would like it to be as I am British and so not exposed as much to the bands big in America.

Most goths would say Depeche Mode isn't goth at all. It's goth-friendly rather, just as in a great number of new-wave and post-punk bands are. Rozz and his many bands influenced the latter goth in America and in the UK. Many UK deathrock and later UK goth bands liked his style of writing and sound. Christian Death would often tour with these UK bands. That's sort of weird, because Rozz is huge in Germany and some Goths and Deathrockers I know in England say he's popular around there.

Quote:

Please take note that I have claimed I'm a metal-head, not a goth, I don't know everything on goth but I know some, and I felt it was a good idea to have a thread on goth seeing as this is a goth guild. This guide is meant as a loose introduction to goth, not the be all and end all font of knowlege.

I'm not saying your thread was a bad idea, but I know a lot about goth music. I'm involved with the current Southern California Goth/Deathrock scene. Most information about goth on the web can be misleading or having major errors. I'm shocked some of the facts were correct on the thread. The best sources are primary sources, though that is not easy to find these days.  

[XxZVIONxX]

Here is an very old thing i had typed up for school talking about style what i believe and what I like.Also giving a history about look it up on websites it helped me a lot on this.

arrow Well all goths dont wear black .Also there are many styles.So read on about what i have to say and what i think, and what most people think.Goth in its simplest form, is a subculture. A group of people who feel comfortable within each others company. There is no specific thing that defines what you need to do or be to fit into the goth scene (except of course the implied black clothing).

People in the goth scene all have different musical tastes, follow different religions, have different occupations, hobbies, and fashion sense.Most goths become goths because they have been spurned by 'normal' society because the way they want to live their lives does not fit in with how most people are told to live theirs. Goths are free thinkers, people who do not accept the moral rules of society because they're told 'This is just how it is' or 'This is what God says!'. Rather goths tend to listen to what you have to say, and make up their own mind. This kind of free thinking and rejection of dogma earns only rejection in todays society.

However because of this rejection from 'normal' society, goths have banded together to associate with other free thinkers. This has a beneficial effect on both the individual and society as a whole. For the individual they have a sense of belonging, and friends they can associate with. For society it removes one more misfit filled with rage from society's streets.

This of course is not the case for all goths. Many goths today are goths for a variety of other reasons. They like the music, or the clubs are better, they have goth friends and joined in with them, or they just like staying up late nights and goths are the only ones awake to talk to.


Many stereotypes of goths exist these days. It seems everyone has their own way to define 'what is goth'. From the stereotypes based on clothing to music right up to the stereotypes of all goths being satanists or part of some kind of cult. Categorically, all of these are false.

The goth scene is just as widely varied as society in general. There are many different professions represented in the scene, from highly skilled professionals like doctors and lawyers, to tradesman, to technically minded people to clerical workers. Many different musical tastes exist (and not all of them goth, there is a HUGE 80's following in the goth scene for some reason). The fashion varies vastly from goth to goth from the traditional flowing victorian style garments to the buckled and studded style regalia (also called industrial style, which is often closely related with goths, and have come to an understanding of co-existance, if uneasily at times).



The gothic sense of humour is highly developed, and often leans toward the satirical. Quietly laughing at the more idiotic and less tolerant factions of society that seem to think yelling out of cars at us makes them cooler. Goths have learned to laugh at themselves and see society in a much different light. They have had to, and it is a trait most would not give up.

Goths have for the most part (not unanimously of course, but mostly) dropped all forms of prejudice. Noone is afraid within the goth scene to come out as being gay, and noone has to hide their religion for fear of scorn from their peers or zealots wanting to convert them from the arms of Satan. In fact because of these facts (and the general lack of prejudice) the goth scene has a large proportion of gays/bisexuals, and followers of non-mainstream religions and views. This of course is the most important aspect of gothdom, and why most goths became goths in the first place, tolerance.


Its o.k to think weird but that the beauty of goths. Most subjects that are taboo in 'normal' society are freely discussed and debated about. Death, religion, magick, mysticism, and many other topics that are only roached carefully outside of the gothic community. Most goths have realised that fear is only a reaction instilled in us by dogmatic propaganda, and once you realise there is nothing to fear from the topic, whats to stop you discussing it?

Goths often revel in the fear given to them by society as a whole. Often the behavior exhibited by society to them based on society's perception of them from stereotypes, rumour, etc are a constant source of entertainment. Of course, most of the rumours are totally unfounded, goths are people like everyone else, however when you already have a reputation, going for the shock factor is often far too tempting to see how much society at large is willing to believe (or deduce) with only a little encouragement.

This does not totally fall away once you get inside the scene unfortunately, and goths are all too often tempted to try for the shock factor within the scene (which turns out more tacky than shocking). Goths when you get down to it can be a rather pretentious bunch, trying for those extra 'goth points' on the gothier than thou scale, but it adds to the enjoyment.



History of the Modern goth (ignoring where the name itself originally comes from) started in the early 80's as part of the punk subculture (which is itself was a rejection of most societal values, and anything considered part of the 'norm'). The phrase was coined by the band manager of Joy Division, Anthony H. Wilson, who described the band as 'Gothic compared with the pop mainstream'. The term stuck, and as punk eventually died, Goth survived and became its own subculture. The punk clothing and hairstyles mellowed, and the core 'rejection of society' attitude alone lived on in the gothic subculture. Over time this itself has been modified to be more of a 'no more blind acceptance of society's values' as opposed to rejection because it was there to be rejected (and because you could get away with it!).

Movies such as The Crow, and bands such as the Bauhaus helped establish the gothic image as dark, depressing, and even evil. As more and more 'dark' movies came out, numbers in the gothic subculture expanded, and there is now a gothic community in almost every major city around the world, and quite a number of towns have their own representative contingent. Nowdays there are more goth bands around than ever, and it has turned from an 80's phenomenon into a 90's way of life for many people. Unlike the punk subculture that it spawned from, there even exists a class of mature goths, still following the scene around even past their 20's and into their 30's and beyond.

* As you can see it's a long story about the goth life stlye and its not all about looks o.k*




 

[GilAskan]

(@ Zvion)...that's very nice, but this thread is more about goth-rock than the goth-culture.

(@ Thread Creators) A very, very good synopsis. One of the best I've ever read.

However, there's one point I'd like to challenge, and another I'd like to suggest:

1) [The point I'd like to challenge] On the origin of the term "goth" to describe the music: I've heard much of what you've said, however, I've also read in numerous places that the term was first used by a tour manager for Joy Division, who on a television interview claimed that "[Joy Division] is for more gothic than most modern bands".

2) [The point I'd like to suggest] In the list of artists and bands who influenced goth-rock, I would suggest the addition of "Screamin" Jay Hawkins.

Allmusic.com

Screamin' Jay Hawkins was the most outrageous performer extant during rock's dawn. Prone to emerging out of coffins onstage, a flaming skull named Henry his constant companion, Screamin' Jay was an insanely theatrical figure long before it was even remotely acceptable.

Screamin' Jay was far ahead of his time. He was doing macabre things on stage before Bauhaus, before Sabbath, before Cooper. In the 1950's, He was doing what still may have been considered unacceptable in 1970's. His odd, occult-laced lyrics and vampire-esque styles set the mood for his shows. His music, similar to the seminal goth-rock band Bauhaus, features a powerful, blues-driven bass, a swirling, downplayed guitar, snappy drums, and ofcourse, a powerful and eerie vocal style. His oddly distorted vocals (quickly and abruptly shifting from soft soprano to raspy baritone) were unlike anything ever heard before, something still heard in goth-rock artists like Voltaire.

...so that's what I have to say.  

[XxZVIONxX]

GilAskan

(@ Zvion)...that's very nice, but this thread is more about goth-rock than the goth-culture.

(@ Thread Creators) A very, very good synopsis. One of the best I've ever read.

However, there's one point I'd like to challenge, and another I'd like to suggest:

1) [The point I'd like to challenge] On the origin of the term "goth" to describe the music: I've heard much of what you've said, however, I've also read in numerous places that the term was first used by a tour manager for Joy Division, who on a television interview claimed that "[Joy Division] is for more gothic than most modern bands".

2) [The point I'd like to suggest] In the list of artists and bands who influenced goth-rock, I would suggest the addition of "Screamin" Jay Hawkins.

Allmusic.com

Screamin' Jay Hawkins was the most outrageous performer extant during rock's dawn. Prone to emerging out of coffins onstage, a flaming skull named Henry his constant companion, Screamin' Jay was an insanely theatrical figure long before it was even remotely acceptable.

Screamin' Jay was far ahead of his time. He was doing macabre things on stage before Bauhaus, before Sabbath, before Cooper. In the 1950's, He was doing what still may have been considered unacceptable in 1970's. His odd, occult-laced lyrics and vampire-esque styles set the mood for his shows. His music, similar to the seminal goth-rock band Bauhaus, features a powerful, blues-driven bass, a swirling, downplayed guitar, snappy drums, and ofcourse, a powerful and eerie vocal style. His oddly distorted vocals (quickly and abruptly shifting from soft soprano to raspy baritone) were unlike anything ever heard before, something still heard in goth-rock artists like Voltaire.

...so that's what I have to say.

Quote:

I've heard of Jay be4 and the reson why i was taliking about goth-culture is because people get it all wrong.thats the only reason why. other then that.

 

[GilAskan]

Although I normally hate doing this, I feel the need to "BUMP" this thread.  

[Genica Pussywillow]

[Can you tell me what Queen adreena and The Birthday massacre are?]
[I doubt that Queen adreena are goth. But, I'm not sure about the oher one razz ]  

[Genica Pussywillow]

XxChild_Of _Goth4m_Bo0txX

*Cut for length*

[Isn't goth basically defined by the music/fashion, though?]
[If they don't wear the same things/listen to the samemusic, they're not part of the goth culture, they're just social rejects, which isn't necessarily the same thing.]

[Also, you say that goths are just social rejects, but then why would they necessarily have a set sense of humour?]
[And, then you continued to mention the music style although you said it wasn't to do with the music in the first place.]
[This seems a little contradictory and misleading :S]  

[GilAskan]

[Rosetta Stoned]

[Can you tell me what Queen adreena and The Birthday massacre are?]
[I doubt that Queen adreena are goth. But, I'm not sure about the oher one razz ]

Birthday Massacre are "darkwave", a goth-rock subgenre which blends electronica and goth-rock. Groups like Cruxshadows fall into the same category.

As for Queen Adreena, I'm not familiar with them, so I'm not sure.  

[GilAskan]

[Rosetta Stoned]

XxChild_Of _Goth4m_Bo0txX

*Cut for length*

[Isn't goth basically defined by the music/fashion, though?]
[If they don't wear the same things/listen to the samemusic, they're not part of the goth culture, they're just social rejects, which isn't necessarily the same thing.]

[Also, you say that goths are just social rejects, but then why would they necessarily have a set sense of humour?]
[And, then you continued to mention the music style although you said it wasn't to do with the music in the first place.]
[This seems a little contradictory and misleading :S]

The definition of "goth" is largely disputed. There's no solid, widely accepted defintion.

Some people say "It's all about the music: a goth is a fan of goth rock and a member of the goth-rock music scene".

Others say "It's not at all about the music, but it's personality and point of view".

Some will say "________ is the single defining factor of being a goth". Others will say "Being goth is a combination of many things".

So it's really up to you as to what you think goth is. I personally believe:

Goth (n.): a member or supporter of the goth culture. Goths tend to be intellectual, sensitive, and artistic, though, these are not required characteristics.

Goth Culture (n.): A culture which grew out of punk in the late 80's. The culture consists of multiple fashion styles, multiple genres of music (most notably goth rock), locales, slang, art, literature, and more.

Under my defintion, a goth doesn't have to have just one thing, but is a supporter or follower of several of the parts of the goth culture.  

[Darkphoenix_666]

Ive Gotta Start Listening To Some More Bands That you Guys Have Discussed...
I Listen to Marilyn Manson , Murderdolls , COF , Korn And Stuff Like That..

I Wouldnt Say Manson Is Goth , Just Shock Rock.
Murderdolls Are Horror Punk Right?
Cradle Of Filth Dress like a Stereotypical Goth Would (Black Lipstick Etc)
But Are More Symphonic.
Korn is Just Metal..a Bit Like Linkin Park...

Quote:

Goth (n.): a member or supporter of the goth culture. Goths tend to be intellectual, sensitive, and artistic, though, these are not required characteristics.

I Fit In With The Artistic and Sensitive Part...but Im Not Intellectual though...Definitely Not.

I Do Write But Not Poem's...I Like To Write about Characters Similar To something From NightMare Before Christmas and Emily the Strange...

I Would Label Myself Goth But Am I?


Anyway Back On Subject , I Would Say A Goth Is Normally Associated with The Darker Elements of Life. Not Satan Or Devil Worshipping But A Couple Of These Things:

-Tim Burton Movies Like Corpse Bride and The Nightmare Before Christmas.

-Music (An Obvious One)

-Normally Wearing Black Like a Trench Coat Or Band Shirts (not To Be Confused With Metal Heads)

-Being In More Touch With Their Emotions, Or sometimes not Using Them At All.

What Do You Guys Think?  

[GilAskan]

Darkphoenix_666

Ive Gotta Start Listening To Some More Bands That you Guys Have Discussed...
I Listen to Marilyn Manson , Murderdolls , COF , Korn And Stuff Like That..

I Wouldnt Say Manson Is Goth , Just Shock Rock.
Murderdolls Are Horror Punk Right?
Cradle Of Filth Dress like a Stereotypical Goth Would (Black Lipstick Etc)
But Are More Symphonic.
Korn is Just Metal..a Bit Like Linkin Park...

It's good that you understand what categories the music you like fall under. If you're looking to get into goth-rock, I suggest you pick up a collection; by getting a CD of various artists, you'll get a broader view of the genre. I'd personally suggest "The Goth Box" or "Goth/Industrial Club Anthems" if you want to dive straight in (both are 3 or 4 CD collections).

Darkphoenix_666

Quote:

Goth (n.): a member or supporter of the goth culture. Goths tend to be intellectual, sensitive, and artistic, though, these are not required characteristics.

I Fit In With The Artistic and Sensitive Part...but Im Not Intellectual though...Definitely Not.

I Do Write But Not Poem's...I Like To Write about Characters Similar To something From NightMare Before Christmas and Emily the Strange...

I Would Label Myself Goth But Am I?

It's your choice, really. As I said, there's no singularly agreed upon defintion of what a goth is, so it's up to you. If you fit your defintion for goth, then feel free to call yourself such. Other people may disagree with you, so be prepared to defend your opinion if it's challenged.

Darkphoenix_666

Anyway Back On Subject , I Would Say A Goth Is Normally Associated with The Darker Elements of Life. Not Satan Or Devil Worshipping But A Couple Of These Things:

-Tim Burton Movies Like Corpse Bride and The Nightmare Before Christmas.

-Music (An Obvious One)

-Normally Wearing Black Like a Trench Coat Or Band Shirts (not To Be Confused With Metal Heads)

-Being In More Touch With Their Emotions, Or sometimes not Using Them At All.

What Do You Guys Think?

Again, up to you. It's up to each member of the goth culture to choose "what is goth". If you find your definition appropriate, use it as you may. But again, be warned: many people are strongly opinionated about this subject, so be prepared to defend your opinion.  

[Darkphoenix_666]

Ah Right Thanks Very Much , I'll Have a Look In My Local Shop Today...