The Basics

[PrayThatThisEnds]

Through further research, the pentgram ritual as quoted above can be found in Whare Ra temple manuscripts, an off shoot of the ordo stella matutina devolped by McGregor Mathers, who continued the G.'.D.'. .

Link here: http://www.esotericgoldendawn.com/tradition_wharera_pentagram.htm

EDIT:

Once again, I suggest that everyone ehre tries the LBRP.

Text here:

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Hermeticism/LBR.htm

Videos of me, then two others performing, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5AmqlIbj7Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoyqozK1nU8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JQrsNLowgI&feature=related  

[Recursive Paradox]

PrayThatThisEnds

Once again, I suggest that everyone ehre tries the LBRP.

No thanks. My methods work well enough.

And I feel I ought to see my progress off the beaten path to its conclusion, if any, instead of using other paths methodology. It's not me being a purist, it's me trying to satisfy my curiosity for discovery.  

[patch99329]

I thought golden dawn was Thelema? ninja  

[PrayThatThisEnds]

patch99329

I thought golden dawn was Thelema? ninja

No, the Golden Dawn is a Magickal order - the Outer Order, the Inner order is the R.R. et A.C., which controls the Golden Dawn, and then there is the Third Order whose run by Secret Chiefs on the Astral Plane.
Thelema is a philosophical & religious movementc - who has an eccleastical(sp?) branch - The Gnostica Catholica Church.
O.T.O is a Thelemite Order based around magick, as is the A.'.A.'.

Not all Thelemites practice magick, but say if you belong to the G.'.D.'. or the O.T.O, you will. They are intiatory orders.

LVX,
Fr.L.e.L  

[PrayThatThisEnds]

Recursive Paradox

PrayThatThisEnds

Once again, I suggest that everyone ehre tries the LBRP.

No thanks. My methods work well enough.

And I feel I ought to see my progress off the beaten path to its conclusion, if any, instead of using other paths methodology. It's not me being a purist, it's me trying to satisfy my curiosity for discovery.

Cara Soror,

I never said they didn't work well - however there are tested methods. If one wnats to reach the summun bonum, why not follow in the footsteps of those gone before? That does not mean one cannot experiment, but it does set a much easier guideline, and for certain, you will find people using the same methods. it is always possible to go astray, however it is so much easier to get lsot in the forest when you move off the trail. Even to those who go off the trail, accidents can still happen. However, do what thou wilt - every man & woman is a star, a king, a queen in their own right.

I will not judge.

LVX,
Fr. L.e.L.  

[TeaDidikai]

PrayThatThisEnds

The Golden Dawn was created before the Advent of Thelema.

Of course. However- the Golden Dawn didn't survive Thelema. No truely lineaged Orders made it past the 70's and what we have now are a handful of revivalists claiming the title. It helps that Regardi and others leaked a bunch of material- but it isn't the same GD.

Quote:

"The Pentagram is a powerful symbol representing the operation of the Eternal Spirit nd the Four Elements under the divine Presidency of the letters of the Name Yeheshuah. ...

Not a high point for those who have no reason to work with that deity, no?

Quote:

But before all things, complete the circle of the place wherein thou workest, seeing that is the key of the rest.

You realize this contradicts your assertion about not casting a circle.

Quote:

Also in Self-initation into the Golden Dawn by Sandra & Chic Cicero they state:

~snerk~ Gotta love "self initiation".

PrayThatThisEnds

Once again, I suggest that everyone ehre tries the LBRP.

Wow... thoughtless advice. You're making generalized suggestions without thinking about if such is proper for a person.

PrayThatThisEnds

If one wnats to reach the summum bonum, why not follow in the footsteps of those gone before?

In some cases there are strict prohibitions against them. Or in the case of Poe, the point isn't summun bonum, but for her personal good.

That said- what does this have to do with the fact that I'm familiar and experienced with the rite via Thelema?

And why haven't you met the other challenges?  

[PrayThatThisEnds]

TeaDidikai

PrayThatThisEnds

The Golden Dawn was created before the Advent of Thelema.

Of course. However- the Golden Dawn didn't survive Thelema. No truely lineaged Orders made it past the 70's and what we have now are a handful of revivalists claiming the title. It helps that Regardi and others leaked a bunch of material- but it isn't the same GD.

I'd love to see proof of this. ther lineage S.L. Mathers started is still around, Regardie leaked the teachings while the original GD was still around. proof, like i said?

Quote:

"The Pentagram is a powerful symbol representing the operation of the Eternal Spirit nd the Four Elements under the divine Presidency of the letters of the Name Yeheshuah. ...

Not a high point for those who have no reason to work with that deity, no?

That deity is also replaced with Osiris, as in the formula IAO - Isis, aphosis, Osiris.

Quote:

But before all things, complete the circle of the place wherein thou workest, seeing that is the key of the rest.

You realize this contradicts your assertion about not casting a circle.

The circle is not cast in a pagan sense but by doing the LBRP itself. it is not seperate from the LBRP or any other ritual like it is in neo-paganism. I am reffering to the distinct act of casting a circle preceding ALL ritual work. The LBRP is ritual work.

Quote:

Also in Self-initation into the Golden Dawn by Sandra & Chic Cicero they state:

~snerk~ Gotta love "self initiation".

There is nothing wrong with self-initiation, as god forms still do exist then can be invoked - The 0=0 ritual mentions "By symbols are all powers awakened and re-awakened". it is simple to undertsand that each office in the Temple has a god-form related to that office. You can invoke the godforms and ask permission to undertake that offices work. You can forge a connection with a god form before hand, letting them know you seek self intiation, and if it is what you want ( a process that must be proven by months of work) they will intercede.

PrayThatThisEnds

Once again, I suggest that everyone ehre tries the LBRP.

Wow... thoughtless advice. You're making generalized suggestions without thinking about if such is proper for a person.

And you're making the assumption that everyone should also use your techniques as well? Maybe they would rather be more involved?

PrayThatThisEnds

If one wnats to reach the summum bonum, why not follow in the footsteps of those gone before?

In some cases there are strict prohibitions against them. Or in the case of Poe, the point isn't summun bonum, but for her personal good.

That said- what does this have to do with the fact that I'm familiar and experienced with the rite via Thelema?

Because most Thelemites see the GD. as something of the old aeon, but i do not agre. They prefer the Star Ruby or the Star Sapphire, written by 666.

And why haven't you met the other challenges?

Kindly point them out

Responses in bold.

By the way, i still have yet to see quotes from you, and sources, which I clearly provide. You're dodging my responses or replying to them without quotes, sources, or anything.

in conclusion, i would like to see where:

1. No lineaged orders of the GD made it past the 70s.

2. Proof that you have knowledge of Thelema, etc. You seem to not know that: LBRP has nothing to do with Thelema, you seem to not know anything about Liber Al vel Legis, let alone the concept of a new Aeon, all of which are something you can learn in a week.

Really, in all your talking, the only refute you actually made thats worth asking a source for, other then your own opinion, is saying that no orders made it past the 70s. Sandra and Chic Cicero picked up on Regardie's order, and it thrives on in Florida. regardie joined the S.R.I.A at the age of 16, with a Waiver - the S.R.I.A was the predecessor of the GD.
(Source: http://www.controverscial.com/Israel Regardie.htm , http://www.sria.org/israelregardie.htm )

PS. The second link has copies of the original documents stating that Regardie was given 0=0 in the S.R.I.A.

Further:

"The Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia or Rosicrucian Society in England was founded in London by Robert Wentworth Little and six other Masons on June 1, 1867. Dr. Woodman was admitted into the Soc. Ros. on October 31, 1867 and appointed to the office of Secretary General in February 1868.

[..]

Westcott approached the elder Mason to become a founding member in a triumvirate of ruling Chiefs in his new Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn. He held the office of Imperator of Isis-Urania Temple #3 in deference to his high status in the Soc. Ros. His mottos in the Order were Magna est Veritas et Praelavebit (5=6, "Great is the Truth and it shall Prevail") and Vincit Omnia Veritas (7=4, "Truth Rules All")."

(Source: http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Bios/Woodman.htm )  

[TeaDidikai]

PrayThatThisEnds

I'd love to see proof of this. ther lineage S.L. Mathers started is still around, Regardie leaked the teachings while the original GD was still around. proof, like i said?

Do you by chance have a copy of The Golden Dawn: The Proceedings of the Golden Dawn Conference? It's well doctumented that of the orders that survived- the last temple that held an actual lineage was the The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc.

Quote:

That deity is also replaced with Osiris, as in the formula IAO - Isis, aphosis, Osiris.

Are you under some mistaken impression that all pagans accept the worship of Osiris?

Quote:

The circle is not cast in a pagan sense but by doing the LBRP itself. it is not seperate from the LBRP or any other ritual like it is in neo-paganism. I am reffering to the distinct act of casting a circle preceding ALL ritual work. The LBRP is ritual work.

Then it would seem that you made an error in your wording huh?

As I pointed out- not everyone wants to cast a circle, especially when they are on the go.

Quote:

There is nothing wrong with self-initiation,

Except- you know, that it's a complete contradiction in terms. rolleyes

Quote:

as god forms still do exist then can be invoked - The 0=0 ritual mentions "By symbols are all powers awakened and re-awakened". it is simple to undertsand that each office in the Temple has a god-form related to that office. You can invoke the godforms and ask permission to undertake that offices work. You can forge a connection with a god form before hand, letting them know you seek self intiation, and if it is what you want ( a process that must be proven by months of work) they will intercede.

Soft polytheism doesn't address the paradox of "self initiation".

Quote:

And you're making the assumption that everyone should also use your techniques as well?

Heavens no. I'm not expecting anyone to use the stuff I'm talking about- merely posting it for those who wish to participate. You will never see me say "Everyone should do X" without the context already being established as those who are seeking out the information for participation. You on the other hand are suggesting the use of rituals that intone specific god names. rolleyes For ******** sake- what's next? "Hey everyone! Go get a Roman Catholic Baptism!"

Quote:

Because most Thelemites see the GD. as something of the old aeon, but i do not agre.

Objective reality seems to trump your opinion. The GD is welcome to it's recons- but the actual Golden Dawn is gone.

Quote:

Kindly point them out

I want you to prove that "part of banishing is pyschodrama" universally of course, and that the LBRP does not function as "mental masturbation for the sake of it."

Quote:

You're dodging my responses or replying to them without quotes, sources, or anything.

I contested positions where the Burden of Proof wasn't on me. You are familiar with what that is, yes?

Quote:

1. No lineaged orders of the GD made it past the 70s.

Noted above.

Quote:

2. Proof that you have knowledge of Thelema, etc.

What proof would qualify? Would you like the name of the camp leader I studied under and the camp?

Quote:

You seem to not know that: LBRP has nothing to do with Thelema,

You're ignoring Liber O aren't you. stare

Quote:

you seem to not know anything about Liber Al vel Legis,

Aren't you forgetting that the reason we started talking to each other included a commentary on how the book addresses Yeshua and Mary?

Quote:

let alone the concept of a new Aeon,

Using vague terms doesn't help your case by the way- if you're speaking of Jim Lees' work, you'll pardon my disapproval. I prefer primary source texts.

Quote:

Really, in all your talking, the only refute you actually made thats worth asking a source for, other then your own opinion, is saying that no orders made it past the 70s.

Oh yes! An unbiased source indeed. For ******** sake, they don't even understand what an initiation is. rolleyes

Also- you haven't done much other than shift the burden of proof, so there isn't much refutation on my part to offer.

I snipped all the quotations that didn't actually demonstrate any of your points.  

[PrayThatThisEnds]

TeaDidikai

PrayThatThisEnds

I'd love to see proof of this. ther lineage S.L. Mathers started is still around, Regardie leaked the teachings while the original GD was still around. proof, like i said?

Do you by chance have a copy of The Golden Dawn: The Proceedings of the Golden Dawn Conference? It's well doctumented that of the orders that survived- the last temple that held an actual lineage was the The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc.

Whose it by? Also, quotes please. I have been kind enough to take my time out to quote directly and list from what pages, and so can you.

Quote:

That deity is also replaced with Osiris, as in the formula IAO - Isis, aphosis, Osiris.

Are you under some mistaken impression that all pagans accept the worship of Osiris?

No, i'm saying that just because a portion of the text refers to YHVH/ The trinity of the christians does NOT mean that it also cannot been taking symbolically to also refer to egyptian myths. Please see Anylyzing the KeyWord - it's in regardies Golden Dawn. It mentions the meanings on INRI and IAO

Quote:

The circle is not cast in a pagan sense but by doing the LBRP itself. it is not seperate from the LBRP or any other ritual like it is in neo-paganism. I am reffering to the distinct act of casting a circle preceding ALL ritual work. The LBRP is ritual work.

Then it would seem that you made an error in your wording huh?

As I pointed out- not everyone wants to cast a circle, especially when they are on the go.

Anyone can take 5 minutes on a crowded bus to do the LBRP mentally, or even to center with just the QC.

Quote:

There is nothing wrong with self-initiation,

Except- you know, that it's a complete contradiction in terms. rolleyes

Where does one joining a magickal "current" (since that is what is bestowed in GD ceremonies as "Light") have anything to do with human roles? Are astral intiations not effective either? Can godforms not be present when sincerely invoked? who intiated the first creators of said orders?

Quote:

as god forms still do exist then can be invoked - The 0=0 ritual mentions "By symbols are all powers awakened and re-awakened". it is simple to undertsand that each office in the Temple has a god-form related to that office. You can invoke the godforms and ask permission to undertake that offices work. You can forge a connection with a god form before hand, letting them know you seek self intiation, and if it is what you want ( a process that must be proven by months of work) they will intercede.

Soft polytheism doesn't address the paradox of "self initiation".

It is no paradox. See above.

Quote:

And you're making the assumption that everyone should also use your techniques as well?

Heavens no. I'm not expecting anyone to use the stuff I'm talking about- merely posting it for those who wish to participate. You will never see me say "Everyone should do X" without the context already being established as those who are seeking out the information for participation. You on the other hand are suggesting the use of rituals that intone specific god names. rolleyes For ******** sake- what's next? "Hey everyone! Go get a Roman Catholic Baptism!"

I never said everyone should do the LBRP, i'm saying if they tried your methods to compare it to the LBRP etc etc. I never demanded that anyone practice my way. What i am saying is that it is a well tested method with a clear goal in mind. Those are facts. And for the record - the LBRP can, and has been modified.

Quote:

Because most Thelemites see the GD. as something of the old aeon, but i do not agre.

Objective reality seems to trump your opinion. The GD is welcome to it's recons- but the actual Golden Dawn is gone.

Once again, proof? The original teachings still exist. Its much like saying paganism is gone and one still cannot be a true pagan even if it has been re-vitilized. I believe a neo-pagan still has the right to claim to be a pagan - time is not a factor. Some things, esecially spiritual paths, are timeless.

Quote:

Kindly point them out

I want you to prove that "part of banishing is pyschodrama" universally of course, and that the LBRP does not function as "mental masturbation for the sake of it."

Because it does not? Maybe you need to find symbolism that works for you. LBRP is not mental masturbation, it actually does work - however, repeated perfiormance is needed. I cannot convince anyone that it works unless they try it, hence why i am asking.

Quote:

You're dodging my responses or replying to them without quotes, sources, or anything.

I contested positions where the Burden of Proof wasn't on me. You are familiar with what that is, yes?

Nope, and don;t really care. I sya you need to prove your sources just as well as mine. You can't say whatever the hell you want and not provide any legit sources just because you feel like it. For example (hypothetical): You say gardner did not worship satan. I say that he did, and i want you to find a source to say that he never invoked satan by name. If such sources (saying that he never invoked satan) are not found, that must mean he did invoke satan, because no sources say that he didn't. (end hypothetical situation.) This is unfair because I never presented any sources that said that he did in the first place, and if you dont have any sources saying he didn't. However, i seem to win because i made the first assertion.

Quote:

1. No lineaged orders of the GD made it past the 70s.

Noted above.

Quote:

2. Proof that you have knowledge of Thelema, etc.

What proof would qualify? Would you like the name of the camp leader I studied under and the camp?

I never knew Thelema had camps for adults and children like some kind of summer get-together and fun time. I never knew that existed. Instead, I'd rather you prove that the order was sanctioned by the A.A., O.T.O or E.G.C.C.

Quote:

You seem to not know that: LBRP has nothing to do with Thelema,

You're ignoring Liber O aren't you. stare

I would like proof that Liber O was written after the revelation from Aiwass to 666. because, it just may have been written while Crowley was a member of the GD.

Quote:

you seem to not know anything about Liber Al vel Legis,

Aren't you forgetting that the reason we started talking to each other included a commentary on how the book addresses Yeshua and Mary?

Quote:

let alone the concept of a new Aeon,

Using vague terms doesn't help your case by the way- if you're speaking of Jim Lees' work, you'll pardon my disapproval. I prefer primary source texts.

No, i'm referring to Crowley's "Stepping out of the old Aeon and into the New" from the Blue Equinox. It can be found on youtube, with Fr. Oz (Ozzz156) reading it.

Quote:

Really, in all your talking, the only refute you actually made thats worth asking a source for, other then your own opinion, is saying that no orders made it past the 70s.

Oh yes! An unbiased source indeed. For ******** sake, they don't even understand what an initiation is. rolleyes

Pardon? This part doesn't make any sense, as Chic and Sandra Cicero (if those are whom you are reffering too) received real intiation, and spoke with Regardie while he was alive - Regardie, who re-created the Vault of the Adepti, was of course in the Second order - R.R. et A.C. Therefore, he could give any of the 0=0 up to the 4=7 and portal initiations

Also- you haven't done much other than shift the burden of proof, so there isn't much refutation on my part to offer.

I snipped all the quotations that didn't actually demonstrate any of your points.

Replies in bold.  

[Recursive Paradox]

PrayThatThisEnds

I never said they didn't work well - however there are tested methods.

Which denies me the discovery. It isn't like science, where things have to build on previous knowledge because there's only one or two valid answers.

The paths that lead to power, wisdom and growth vary greatly. And I think my growth will be maximized by taking untraveled paths.

Quote:

Why not follow in the footsteps of those gone before?

Because I wish to see what others have not. Do what others have not. Expand my world beyond what I can read in a text or try at any point.

I also don't know what that word you used means, that summun bonum.

Quote:

That does not mean one cannot experiment, but it does set a much easier guideline, and for certain, you will find people using the same methods.

I've always done better in solitary work.

And then there's the fact that there are too many Abrahamic undertones in that method, which smacks of theism, which smacks of worship.

And the ban on worship as part of the First Pillar is very clear. I refuse a method that would cause in me Entropy of the Self or even have a chance of causing it.

That is why Thelema, worship rituals and prayer are useless to me. They will always be so while I follow the philosophy of Etherism.  

[TeaDidikai]

PrayThatThisEnds

Whose it by? Also, quotes please. I have been kind enough to take my time out to quote directly and list from what pages, and so can you.

Gerald Suster, page 150 (the 1990 edition).

It's worth noting that even Chic's website notes that it doesn't claim lineage to the initial GD.

[Cite]

Quote:

No, i'm saying that just because a portion of the text refers to YHVH/ The trinity of the christians does NOT mean that it also cannot been taking symbolically to also refer to egyptian myths. Please see Anylyzing the KeyWord - it's in regardies Golden Dawn. It mentions the meanings on INRI and IAO

But Egyptian myth isn't synonymous with paganism... to say nothing of the Hard Polytheists in the guild. confused

Quote:

Anyone can take 5 minutes on a crowded bus to do the LBRP mentally, or even to center with just the QC.

And as I have pointed out- can and should aren't synonymous.

Quote:

Where does one joining a magickal "current" (since that is what is bestowed in GD ceremonies as "Light") have anything to do with human roles? Are astral intiations not effective either? Can godforms not be present when sincerely invoked? who intiated the first creators of said orders?

Look- if you want to dedicate, or perform another ritual, fine. But that doesn't make it an initiation. As for who were the first initiates? It depends on the group- many groups started off under other traditions and developed their own rituals within the context of the splinter group which then practiced group initiations upon one another. Either way- you're trying to put the cart before the horse and misuse terms in order to justify your position.

Quote:

It is no paradox. See above.

This logical fallacy is known as proof by assertion. You saying it is one way- doesn't make it so.

Quote:

I never said everyone should do the LBRP, i'm saying if they tried your methods to compare it to the LBRP etc etc. I never demanded that anyone practice my way. What i am saying is that it is a well tested method with a clear goal in mind. Those are facts. And for the record - the LBRP can, and has been modified.

Don't lie. It's unbecoming.

You

Once again, I suggest that everyone ehre tries the LBRP.

Quote:

Once again, proof? The original teachings still exist.

You don't seem to be familiar with what the Golden Dawn was- it was an initiatory occult mystery tradition that relied on lineage and fraternal secrets to transmit it's mysteries. What folks have are large chunks of rituals, but not all of the secrets. Like I said- it can have it's recons. I don't care- but they aren't the Golden Dawn of old and they don't pretend to be- why do you?

Quote:

Its much like saying paganism is gone and one still cannot be a true pagan even if it has been re-vitilized.

You're confusing a hidden orthodoxy with an open one. The reality of the matter is that Nuri- no matter how kick a** of a Hellenic Pagan she is, she'll never be part of the Elysian Mysteries. And she's okay with that. She doesn't need to misrepresent herself in order to make herself feel better about that.

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I believe a neo-pagan still has the right to claim to be a pagan - time is not a factor. Some things, esecially spiritual paths, are timeless.

Time? No. Facts- facts can and do disappear. It's about intellectual honesty.

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Because it does not?

Woot! More proof by assertion. I'm pretty close to ignoring your posts. You can't reason your way through the challenges so you're repeating yourself ad nauseum.

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Maybe you need to find symbolism that works for you.

rofl

Quote:

LBRP is not mental masturbation, it actually does work - however, repeated perfiormance is needed. I cannot convince anyone that it works unless they try it, hence why i am asking.

What makes you think Mental Masturbation and results are mutually exclusive?

Quote:

Nope, and don;t really care.

Tell you what- since you don't feel like being intellectually honest or thoughtful, I'll meet it in kind.

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I sya you need to prove your sources just as well as mine. You can't say whatever the hell you want and not provide any legit sources just because you feel like it.

And yet- I'm not. I also won't allow your illogical positions to dictate my actions either.

Quote:

For example (hypothetical): You say gardner did not worship satan. I say that he did, and i want you to find a source to say that he never invoked satan by name. If such sources (saying that he never invoked satan) are not found, that must mean he did invoke satan, because no sources say that he didn't. (end hypothetical situation.) This is unfair because I never presented any sources that said that he did in the first place, and if you dont have any sources saying he didn't. However, i seem to win because i made the first assertion.

Actually- that isn't how it worked. If no sources are found for or against, a conclusion cannot be made one way or the other.

Might I suggest you take a crash course in logic? You don't seem to be able to string three logical thoughts together. It's getting boring.

Quote:

I never knew Thelema had camps for adults and children like some kind of summer get-together and fun time. I never knew that existed. Instead, I'd rather you prove that the order was sanctioned by the A.A., O.T.O or E.G.C.C.

You're ignorant of what the term Camp means in relation to the OTO structure and you're questioning me on my familiarity with Thelema? Wow... that's special. Just an FYI

Quote:

I would like proof that Liber O was written after the revelation from Aiwass to 666. because, it just may have been written while Crowley was a member of the GD.

Being a revelation from Aiwass isn't the standard as to what becomes part of Thelema and not. In short- moving the goal posts.

As an FYI- it came from Abuldiz.

Quote:

No, i'm referring to Crowley's "Stepping out of the old Aeon and into the New" from the Blue Equinox. It can be found on youtube, with Fr. Oz (Ozzz156) reading it.

You do realize that you're engaging in an argument from Silence as well.

Quote:

Pardon? This part doesn't make any sense, as Chic and Sandra Cicero (if those are whom you are reffering too) received real intiation, and spoke with Regardie while he was alive - Regardie, who re-created the Vault of the Adepti, was of course in the Second order - R.R. et A.C. Therefore, he could give any of the 0=0 up to the 4=7 and portal initiations

Prestige by Association is also a fallacy. Just because they were initiated, that doesn't mean they have a grasp of what the concept is. Initiations by definition are "the rites, ceremonies, ordeals, or instructions with which one is made a member of a sect or society or is invested with a particular function or status". you can't initiate yourself. It defeats the purpose.

[Cite]

Last chance. Done with the fallacious rhetoric and don't lie in a forum that can be cross referenced. It's bad form.  

[error-dot-tar]

PrayThatThisEnds

Once again, I suggest that everyone ehre tries the LBRP.

I'm going to have to agree with the resounding "No thank you".

And now that I have seen the videos, I am going to have to strengthen that. What good would such a ritual do for those that do not obtain any sort of aesthetic meaning from it? What a lot of people forget is that symbolism is not the entirety of ritual. They need to come together in a whole. Without that they are completely meaningless to me.

Your assertion also assumes that everyone present in this guild have a similar mindset. That is not the case. There are Chaote, Satanists, Etherists like Recursive Paradox has shown. I'm sure there are more that I am not currently aware of. What kind of benefit are we supposed to obtain? Especially when some of us don't deal with the supernatural or metaphysical at all and have no desire to?  

[Maze]

PrayThatThisEnds

Why not follow in the footsteps of those gone before?

I prefer this dude's words to yours;

Matsuo Munefusa (”Basho”)*

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise men of old. Seek what they sought.

*who might've been quoting Nanzan Daishi, it's been a while since I checked..  

[PrayThatThisEnds]

I guess I can admit I was wrong, but no worries. 3nodding

EDIT: I was not lying, but I was goign off of the knowledge I had at the time.  

[error-dot-tar]

PrayThatThisEnds

I guess I can admit I was wrong, but no worries. 3nodding

EDIT: I was not lying, but I was goign off of the knowledge I had at the time.

I tend to perceive suggesting that the same method works for everyone a lie.