What makes a Wiccan a Wiccan

[Deoridhe]

reagun ban

Deoridhe

They do sometimes say Yule is Celtic, though. sweatdrop

As it happens, there is a festival called Iúil which was celebrated by the ancient Celts. The Asatruar stole it from us when they pillaged our country in the sixth century while Ireland was populated with peace loving Wiccans, who called themselves Druids at the time as well as Wiccan. whee

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*mental note, bring clubs next time Wing is States-side*

rofl  

[TheDisreputableDog]

Okay. I'm confused.

So we have initiated Wiccans, the names of whose holidays are presumably oathbound and therefore irrelevant.

Suffice to say that they are not the same as false Wiccans', who have co-opted and corrupted the names from various traditions and have no right to the holidays nor to the title of Wiccan.

However...What about those people who don't wrongly classify themselves as Wiccan but still do the equinox/solstice/cross-quarter holidays? They don't have any more right to "Samhain" and "Bealtine" than the Fwiccans, obviously. But is it reasonable for the "neopagan scene" to celebrate those holidays as long as no claims are laid as to their "origins in Celtic tradition" or their "status" as "Wiccan"? If so, are the only appropriate names for those holidays the astronomical events (e.g. winter solstice), the secular title (e.g. Halloween, Neopagan style), the calendar date (e.g. February 2), or the approximate seasonal time (e.g. Summer Festival #3)?  

[Neko_Bast]

TeaDidikai

The holidays are not similar. Period. You are using the wrong word for your Holiday- unless we need to go into the "I'm a Tree" argument again.

It reminds me of this damn ignorant "G~Wiccan" who said she celebrated "Krystallnacht", the "Night of Crystals" celebrated on Nov. 10th.

She said it was an "ancient G~ Holiday". ~spits~ She earned a pretty crossing for that one.

No, Tea, biggrin we don't need to go into that. I'm not that attaced to the name, or any of the other "popular pagan holiday names."

And that other girl......wow... sweatdrop  

[Deoridhe]

TheDisreputableDog

However...What about those people who don't wrongly classify themselves as Wiccan but still do the equinox/solstice/cross-quarter holidays? They don't have any more right to "Samhain" and "Bealtine" than the Fwiccans, obviously. But is it reasonable for the "neopagan scene" to celebrate those holidays as long as no claims are laid as to their "origins in Celtic tradition" or their "status" as "Wiccan"? If so, are the only appropriate names for those holidays the astronomical events (e.g. winter solstice), the secular title (e.g. Halloween, Neopagan style), the calendar date (e.g. February 2), or the approximate seasonal time (e.g. Summer Festival #3)?

I'd say the default should be the astronomical event, personally. Since the names of the spring and fall festivals are up for argument, I tend to refer to them as the Equionoxes rather than use a term which may not be appropriate.  

[TeaDidikai]

Deoridhe

I'd say the default should be the astronomical event, personally. Since the names of the spring and fall festivals are up for argument, I tend to refer to them as the Equionoxes rather than use a term which may not be appropriate.

Plus it adds to the scene's distinction between different pagan theologies. With all the confusion, such should be a merit.  

[Aya Azura]

Ok, this is going to sound a bit spacey, and I'm not trying to down anyone, so please don't kill me, but I don't understand why people try so hard to divide the real Wiccan from the fake. A person who just randomly picks up a book, and grabs their table knife, and decides to start speaking in Gaelic to summon the ancient spirits of their great-grandmother is obviously not a Wiccan. But, a person who studies a Tradition, and worships, and studies, and holds rituals consistantly, and has a real dedication, doesn't that mean they are Wiccan, or at least by belief? Isn't the general point of Wicca to attune yourself to the cycles of the earth, and energy. And why do the names of the God/desses that you choose to worship matter, it's all generally the same thing. It's a Matron for the Divine, which I would assume we all believe in. Doesn't religion mean to re-lin, so why are we trying to separate the people who study really hard, andd worship consistantly but aren't initiated to the lineaged? Does the person who studies as hard as the person who got initiated not deserve the title? I don't call myself Wiccan, but I am a witch, who studies the Correlian Tradition. Actually, I think your right in the sense that the reason I don't call myself Wiccan is that I would feel really bad, and just plain rude comparing myself to someone who actually got initiated. Also, through initiation, you get the coven mysteries, so I guess that's the difference then. But this whole topic just seems so conservative to me. Or maybe I still need to read more. As for the name of the Holidays. I think the solstices and equinox, I don't think it matters what you call them, they fall on the day that they fall on. But the 30/1, 31/1, 1/2, Sabbats, I call them the ones that I'm aware of. I don't think the Gods really care, actually. I think it's good though, that you are looking for the correct root though. I'm aware of astrological celebration, but I am so disturbingly horrible at remembering correspondences, and I have no access to an astrological chart, and I'm not trusting any chart that I get online, unless it's tje moon phase chart on witchvox, I just do it the common dates. I think just for now, though.  

[TheDisreputableDog]

Aya Azura

Ok, this is going to sound a bit spacey, and I'm not trying to down anyone, so please don't kill me, but I don't understand why people try so hard to divide the real Wiccan from the fake. A person who just randomly picks up a book, and grabs their table knife, and decides to start speaking in Gaelic to summon the ancient spirits of their great-grandmother is obviously not a Wiccan. But, a person who studies a Tradition, and worships, and studies, and holds rituals consistantly, and has a real dedication, doesn't that mean they are Wiccan, or at least by belief? Isn't the general point of Wicca to attune yourself to the cycles of the earth, and energy. And why do the names of the God/desses that you choose to worship matter, it's all generally the same thing. It's a Matron for the Divine, which I would assume we all believe in. Doesn't religion mean to re-lin, so why are we trying to separate the people who study really hard, andd worship consistantly but aren't initiated to the lineaged? Does the person who studies as hard as the person who got initiated not deserve the title?

Well, you sort of answered yourself:

Aya Azura

I don't call myself Wiccan, but I am a witch, who studies the Correlian Tradition. Actually, I think your right in the sense that the reason I don't call myself Wiccan is that I would feel really bad, and just plain rude comparing myself to someone who actually got initiated. Also, through initiation, you get the coven mysteries, so I guess that's the difference then.

It's not about not respecting the hard work that many eclectic pagans do put into researching their faiths. It's about actually being Wiccan or not. "[A] person who studies a Tradition, and worships, and studies, and holds rituals consistantly, and has a real dedication" isn't a Wiccan, by belief or otherwise, unless they are Wiccan; i.e. they have been initiated by a lineaged coven, know the mysteries conveyed by that coven, and worship the god and goddess of Wicca by their own names, and I'm sure there are other characteristics that I don't know because I'm not Wiccan.

Aya Azura

But this whole topic just seems so conservative to me.

If you consider dedication to accuracy conservative, then yes.  

[Aya Azura]

Excuse my confusion. I have just heard so many different definitions for a "Wiccan", that it's screwed me up. I'm not Wiccan though, so that's why I generally wouldn't know. It makes more sense the way you put it though. Thanks for taking the time to read through, and clear it up for me. It's not the dedication, that I found conservative though, it's the one dfinition for it. But I guess if it's accurate, it's not conservative, but a fdact. That would sort of be like calling science conservative. Again, I apologize. Thanks again,
Namaste.  

[TeaDidikai]

Aya Azura

I don't understand why people try so hard to divide the real Wiccan from the fake.

Not being Wiccan myself and really having no vested interest in the theology- I mostly do it for sport, and at times (when I come across really annoying Fluffies) for the sake of helping the unwashed masses not confuse fantasy with reality.

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But, a person who studies a Tradition, and worships, and studies, and holds rituals consistantly, and has a real dedication, doesn't that mean they are Wiccan, or at least by belief?

It's the "at least by belief" that sinks that assertion from the word go.

If I believe I am a tree- and I don't have leaves, branches, roots, bark etc- my belief doesn't make me something I am not.

Further- Wicca has a set meaning- none of which was really addressed in anything I quoted above.

If someone can change the meaning of the word Tree to include humans as trees, bully for them. That doesn't make it right though.

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Isn't the general point of Wicca to attune yourself to the cycles of the earth, and energy.

Not really. The general point of Wicca is to act as Clergy to the Wiccan Lord and Lady of the Isles.

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And why do the names of the God/desses that you choose to worship matter, it's all generally the same thing.

Welcome to the major problem with Fluffy-Pantheism. Just because a Pantheist asserts that all gods are one, doesn't make it so.

No. It isn't the same. Wicca is Hardpolytheistic. Alako is NOT the Wiccan Lord.

Alako is very specific as to who is allowed to worship him. You have to have a genetic tie into the culture.

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It's a Matron for the Divine, which I would assume we all believe in.

It would be a false assumption.

For a start- I know of at least three atheists who do not follow the goddess Athei in this forum.

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Doesn't religion mean to re-lin, so why are we trying to separate the people who study really hard, andd worship consistantly but aren't initiated to the lineaged?

Because being Clergy is part of what it is to be Wiccan.

Why do we make a distinction between an MD and someone with their PhD in Theology? Well- it is because they aren't the same thing.

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Does the person who studies as hard as the person who got initiated not deserve the title?

No. No more so than I should be a lawyer for reading the local Statutes. Being an Attorney is both understanding the Law and having passed the Bar exam. Being Wiccan is about understanding the Theology and being initiated into the Clergy.

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But this whole topic just seems so conservative to me.

People as a whole tend to not like being told "No".

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As for the name of the Holidays. I think the solstices and equinox, I don't think it matters what you call them, they fall on the day that they fall on.

This comes back to the whole "I am a tree" thing.

Did you know Christmas is a holiday in which it is a tradition to beat pregnat women within an inch of their life, roast any aborted fetus that is found. It is also tradition to take people's pets and read their intrails.

That is the true meaning of Christmas.

That was a little over the top. Allow me to rephrase.

Christmas is traditionally celebrated on July 10th. It is the holiday that marks the birth of Satan.

Now- the assertions made there are just as inaccurate as calling what the Wiccans celebrate on November Eve Samhain.

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I don't think the Gods really care, actually.

Wasn't aware that you spoke for all of the gods.  

[Aya Azura]

Wow...I just read so many things I wasn't even aware of. This is a good topic, because I'm sure I'm not the only one who doewsn't know. And you're right, it's sort of audacious of me to say that I know whaht the Gods think. There's an article on WitchVox that touches this subject, and I was reading it last night, and that helped my understanding to. Everytime I think I'm learning a lot, it hits me smack dab in the face how much I still have to go. I should know that calling yourself a Wiccan doesn't make you one, because in Catholicism, to be a Catholic you have to be baptised and confirmed in a Catholic church, and that's generally the same thing. Sorrry for the audacity, and thank you too, for taking the time to answer.
Peace.  

[TeaDidikai]

Aya Azura

Wow...I just read so many things I wasn't even aware of.

Lot of confusion out there. No worries.

Somewhere there is an infodump in which I quote the founder of Wicca as he outlined the theology.

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And you're right, it's sort of audacious of me to say that I know whaht the Gods think.

Fair enough. Welcome to the Rehab guild by the way. You're pretty much the perfect example of what this guild is here for. Keep up the good work.

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and thank you too, for taking the time to answer.

Welcome.

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Peace.

What did I do to merit such a curse!?! gonk  

[Aya Azura]

Lol. Thanks for the welcome, but I've been on this guild for almost a year. I went to a lot of different ones, and gave spiritual counceling for a while on the Book of Shadows guild, so I didn't come on here for a while. I studied for a while, and still am, but now I feel enlightened. It's good to know I can still learn. I've been reading Correllian though, which is Cherokee, Scottish folk religion, wicca, and Spiritualism, which is why I have more of a Spiritualistic idea based on the Divine instead of separatee Goddess, which is weird, because I have a matron. Go figure. Ayayay, I feel at a lost now, I feel like I don't know anything. Like I knew that it was lineaged, but I know A LOT of people who call themselves Wiccan, and they aren't, so I was confused. Thank you, I'll try to study more often, but the way I go is really more of a spiritualistic view of Wicca than anything else, but either way, it's bad to stay ignorant, so thanks again.
Peace and hair grease. (LMAO!!! Sorry, my friend just said that.)  

[CuAnnan]

Aya Azura

I've been reading Correllian though, which is Cherokee, Scottish folk religion, wicca, and Spiritualism, which is why I have more of a Spiritualistic idea based on the Divine instead of separatee Goddess, which is weird, because I have a matron.

No. It's not.
It has nothing in common with Gaelic beliefs at all, I am led to believe it has nothing to do with Cherokee faith by their website. It has nothing to do with Wicca and I am led to believe similar of Spiritualism.

Aya Azura

A LOT of people who call themselves Wiccan

Like the Correllians

Aya Azura

they aren't

Like the Correllians.

Aya Azura

so I was confused.

Like the Corellians.

Aya Azura

the way I go is really more of a spiritualistic view of Wicca than anything else

Not wicca.  

[jaden kendam]

Aya Azura

Lol. Thanks for the welcome, but I've been on this guild for almost a year. I went to a lot of different ones, and gave spiritual counceling for a while on the Book of Shadows guild, so I didn't come on here for a while. I studied for a while, and still am, but now I feel enlightened. It's good to know I can still learn. I've been reading Correllian though, which is Cherokee, Scottish folk religion, wicca, and Spiritualism, which is why I have more of a Spiritualistic idea based on the Divine instead of separatee Goddess, which is weird, because I have a matron. Go figure. Ayayay, I feel at a lost now, I feel like I don't know anything. Like I knew that it was lineaged, but I know A LOT of people who call themselves Wiccan, and they aren't, so I was confused. Thank you, I'll try to study more often, but the way I go is really more of a spiritualistic view of Wicca than anything else, but either way, it's bad to stay ignorant, so thanks again.
Peace and hair grease. (LMAO!!! Sorry, my friend just said that.)

What aspect of Spiritualism do they teach? I was not aware of such a connection.  

[Aya Azura]

The Five Mystic Secrets written by Blv. LaVeda talks about it, but this is just what I've read, so please don't chew me out. Wait, so if it has nothing to do with that, what does it have to do with then? Of, now I'm REALLY confused. I feel like I'm being lied to by someone. Why is there so many wrong information that I'm reading?