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 Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:04 am
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TagraNar TeaDidikai If people are saying that the core guild is "too confrontational", then it is there job to place their threads in the forum they desire. So the solution to the guild being too confrontational is to change nothing but throw those who complain about it being confrontational into a new forum?
I think that is more than reasonable.
You have a core group of people who have information and share it. You have another core group of people who learn from the first. You then have a third core group of people who can't stand learning from the first due to nothing more than style.
Seems like group one and two can play nice together. No reason to shift two groups for the sake of one.
TagraNar Kuroiban A lot of the tension I see comes up when people take "You're wrong", and interpert it as "You're wrong, because you're an idiot". You see, I sorta take that as a personal problem. If it were one or two people, then I'd buy that. If it's a major complaint, then there is something wrong that needs to be fixed.
See- what is the average age of Gaia? 13? The average maturity?
Now- what is the average age of the people who have the information this guild is built upon?
20-somethings?
While there are people who are mature beyond their years and not as mature as they should be, the average maturity of the individuals who are looking to be defuffed is not 13.
Understanding the difference between confrontation and ad hominem is something that comes through basic development. It is a part of understanding that you are not your ideas alone, and that attacking an idea is not the same as attacking the individual.
Quote: It's not just being direct and honest, though. If this has been a major complaint, then people are being direct and honest but hostile and confrontational.
Quote: Should the difficulty really come from dealing with those who you are looking to for guidance?
Quote: What is the problem with being civil about things? What's the major issue with it? Is it because you (quite general you, by the way) can't be as hostile as you like? Is it because you know of no other way to handle people?
For example, M&R has one individual who was spamming the Pagan threads.
One of the nicest folks on Gaia was ready to have someone fry the kid.
Myself- I actually was creating a long PM and being polite in explaining how the kid was wrong, citing sources and pointing out why her assertions were flawed.
Quote: I do not see this place as being all about debate,
Often things get CBed because they have no place in M&R and people want M&R styled debate- but cannot get it in the General ED.
Quote: They need education and guidance, not hostility, if that's the problem, and that hostility can easily turn people away from this place. The people that do not post here or who do not continue on their path here are likely finding it elsewhere, and quite possibly in misinformation, which would be directly opposed to what this guild does. Just because they leave here doesn't mean their path ends, merely that they look elsewhere where the people are more accepting. And, again, those accepting people may be giving the wrong sorts of information.
Quote: I'm all for bashing someone's skull in when they have been dealt with repeatedly and still just will not get it or refuse to get it.
But isn't that hostil?
Wait- isn't that we're "guilty" of in the first place?
Can't recall when I ever took one look at slandered a person on GP here (or on Gaia in general- in fact, I don't recall using ad hominem period) |
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:46 am
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Kuroiban I've always seen the guild as teaching thru the destruction of falsehood, so defining the rules via the purpose of the guild is a bit sticky...
The absence of lies is not truth.
Quote: Unless I'm TOTALLY on my own here. sweatdrop
However, removing misconceptions to make room for solid learning is a very vital step in the teaching process.
However, if the removal of ignorance is done in such a violent or hostile way that it drives the patient/student away, then the teacher has failed. Adn not only failed, but poisoned the waters of anyone else attempting to teach the same subject to that student.
Kuroiban We get into a problem here, as some people are a bit thick in the skull, and don't get "it" (whatever the it may be) until some blunt force is applied...but WHEN they get it...it's like the entire world has become that much clearer. Okay...so if we're all nice about everything we don't offend the slightly more skittish...but we also risk letting people of different natures languish as a result.
The other side of that coin is that the sledgehammer comes out mayhaps a bit early in some cases...
Just because soemone has had to explain something multiple times does not mean the student has heard that lesson before.
Kuroiban Case in point being, I suppose, that you can't save everbody, and if you worry about it too much, you won't save anyone at all.
This is a prime example of something that enrages me to no end.
The belief that something can't be done, just because it is difficult, or nobody has succeeded at it yet.
It smacks, to me, of false dilemma, and an unwillingness to put real effort into looking for a solution amiable to everyone.
There may be times when not everyone can be saved... not everyone can be helped... but that is on a case by case basis, not a universal constant.
Kuroiban A lot of the tension I see comes up when people take "You're wrong", and interpert it as "You're wrong, because you're an idiot". You see, I sorta take that as a personal problem.
Except when the actual insults are levied...
Kuroiban People need to learn some personal responsiability. I'm not suggesting things become dog eat dog, but why is it anyone's job to walk around on eggshells, lest we offend someone? I see that, honestly, as a diservice.
Because maintaining ourselves with a modicum of decorum and civility is such a horrid thing to ask. Personal responsibility includes control, not just of people's whining and angst, but also of the desire to rip someone's head off.
I smell hypocrasy when one group screams that others must be sensitive to their short tempers and low BS tolerance, while refusing to show similar consideration to other people's thick skulls and inability to handle harsh lessons.
Kuroiban Sometimes, you can not be subtle, unobtrusive, or delicate when delivering a point to someone. Sometimes, you need bells and whistles and the like. Hell, even a pair of crash cymbells.
But is it not worth the effort to at least make the attempt at diplomacy before resorting to nukes?
Kuroiban I realize that that sometimes confrontational attitudes can APPEAR to be personal insults...but that's the problem. They only appear that way. The truth, is much simpler, and completely unoffensive.
As, on the internet, we cannot use tone of voice nor posture (two of my most important methods of giving meaning to my words), we have only words. And words, especially in the English language, are open to wide interpretation... We are working with massive potential for misscommunication, what I am asking for is an attempt to set some tone for the whole matter, to try to keep the main forum on what may be considered the same sheet of music. Misscommunication cuts both ways.
People must decypher the meanign from the words they read...
And people must also select the words that they feel will best express themselves.
Kuroiban I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel it's incorrect to have to moderate ourselves, because being direct and honest might offend someone.
And I feel it is incorrect to throw all ideas of civility out the window in the name of being direct. One can be firm, honest, and forthright, without being neglectful of the way in which they do so, or malicious in their manner.
Kuroiban Isn't searching for truth thru difficulty a tested, honed, and honored virtue for most Pagan cultures and paths?
Not all.
It is a major theme in many, but not all.
Now, moving right along this spirited discourse...
Oh, I want to pause a moment, and express that, I respect, if disagree with the position opposite to mine.
In fact, in a non-teaching environ, I would whole heartedly embrace it.
I make no secret of my belief that people should come to knowledge of their own prowess, and only those who are willing to sacrifice, to search til they bleed deserve the truth...
However, as I am present here, and actively posting, I feel honour-bound to work towards what I understand to be the primary purpose of this Society... the Rehabilitation of Fluffies.
And this raises my long buried teaching philosophy... that it is the duty of the educator to impart not just knowledge unto the pupil, but rather, truth, adn a thirst for more truth... a thirst that will drive the student to learn for themselves, to seek knowledge no matter how difficult it may be... This philosophy also is arrogant, in that it holds the teacher as the revealer of ways, the one who may part the veil the student cannot on their own (as demonstrated by the student's request of the teacher's guidance). This places greater responsibility on the teacher, who is now not just offer facts, but is offering a chance to see the whole of existance a new. It is laudable to enlighten... but it is also the teachers duty to see to it that the light does not come so quickly that it blinds the student... Ultimately, by accepting the duty of teaching, the person becomes more than they were, but now, their first responsibility is not to their own personal goals, but rather, the enlightenment of their student. The truth remains the truth, regardless of who chooses to believe it... but it matters not if everyone turns from it.
This is my personal philosophy, not meant for anyone else... I just wanted to explain where I am coming from.
TeaDidikai You have a core group of people who have information and share it. You have another core group of people who learn from the first. You then have a third core group of people who can't stand learning from the first due to nothing more than style.
Tea, I don't think it's a matter of "can't stand to learn from" so much as it is a matter of "can't learn from".
Different people have different thought processes and learn differently.
There are some people whom I simply cannot teach, try as I might, it is that my education style is not compatible with the way they learn. This is not a failing on anyone's part...
It is the simple fact of an Apple not being an Orange.
Also, on an aside, if we desire civilities, we must behave according to them... whether they are in place or not.
If it is felt that someone has been overtly hostile, then being hostile to them in response will not lessen the hostility, but rather fuel it.
I am confident that the majority of the conflict here is a result of miscommunication. And thus, is not a worthy and desirable conflict... It is conflict which will lead to bitterness and ignorance, as both sides know what they said, and see the other side's reactions as unreasoning.
Regardless of chronological age and unfortunate disposition of birth (North of the Mason-Dixon wink that is, It ain't your fault you Yanks were born in a barbaric land), I am going to work under the understanding that we are all reasoning, civil, adults... Who have left the attitudes and concerns (if not actual fact of placement) of a more torrid juvenile period at the door. As such, I am not meaning to condescend, as I know my words may be taken as such, and hope that, regardless of differences of opinion regarding this particular subject, we may express ourselves clearly, free of any of the myraid psychosis I know many of us (myself included) labour under, and also free of the need to make this disagreement a personal one. I may roll my eyes, tear at my hair, and develop new ulcers which I shall name after y'all... but in the end, I still consider you friends. |
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:58 am
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Fiddlers Green Tea, I don't think it's a matter of "can't stand to learn from" so much as it is a matter of "can't learn from". Different people have different thought processes and learn differently.
However, one's desired learning pattern is not one's only learning pattern.
As you mentioned above, just because it is difficult, does not mean it is impossible.
Quote: Also, on an aside, if we desire civilities, we must behave according to them... whether they are in place or not. If it is felt that someone has been overtly hostile, then being hostile to them in response will not lessen the hostility, but rather fuel it.
Quote: I am confident that the majority of the conflict here is a result of miscommunication. And thus, is not a worthy and desirable conflict... It is conflict which will lead to bitterness and ignorance, as both sides know what they said, and see the other side's reactions as unreasoning.
Quote: Regardless of chronological age and unfortunate disposition of birth (North of the Mason-Dixon wink that is, It ain't your fault you Yanks were born in a barbaric land), I am going to work under the understanding that we are all reasoning, civil, adults...
What I am seeing in the actual "conflicts" in the guild is someone taking something too personally.
There is a whole subforum for people who do not want to have their beliefs challenged in an abrupt way.
There are people who cannot tell the difference between "You're wrong- here's why:" and "You're an evil psycho-beast".
It isn't a question if these people can be reached, it is a question of if those who have the information want to do so. |
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:53 am
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TeaDidikai I am well aware. However, one's desired learning pattern is not one's only learning pattern. As you mentioned above, just because it is difficult, does not mean it is impossible.
Right, however, why use a sledgehammer (which can do the job) to hammer in a tack, when a Taphammer can do it with less collateral damage. By the same token, using a tap hammer to crush a boulder is equaly possible, and equal folly. wink
I also mentioned that matters must be taken on a case by case basis...
Quote: That assumes that all of us desire "even" civilities.
It wasn't supposed to.
My point was that for those who request civilities, it is important to keep civil fingers on the keyboard.
It was an admonishment to those who are in concordance with me on the matter of civilities that we must remain civil while requesting them.
I was briefly reminded of a political campaign, where one canidate had been lambasted by his foe... but, towards the end of his campaign, instead of focusing on the issues, he turned arround and lambasted his foe for lambasting him...
The hypocrasy is obvious.
That is what I was warning about.
Those who don't desire to see civility should in no way shape or form feel obligated to behave civily in making their case against civilities.
I think that should clear it up.
Quote: We disagree as to if miscommunication can be onesided or if it requires both sides though.
We do?
Let me state then, that miscommunication (in my observance) is most often two-sided, however, that does not rule out the minority occurance where it is one sided.
Quote: Except- in some cases that is a false assumption.
I know, but I have to try and forgive them for the War of Northern Agression, don't I?
I am aware, but I like to extend the benefit of the doubt, and offer people a chance to act without me looking directly down my nose...
Quote: What I am seeing in the actual "conflicts" in the guild is someone taking something too personally. There is a whole subforum for people who do not want to have their beliefs challenged in an abrupt way.
Keep in mind, for some people, this is very personal. Especially the Personal Gnosis crowd... and Abrupt is an apt way to put it... to some, the challenge seems to come out of the blue, and that puts people on the defensive... which brings us to another point.
Quote: There are people who cannot tell the difference between "You're wrong- here's why:" and "You're an evil psycho-beast".
That is true.
Also, there are times when people believe they are saying the former, and I can tell that is what they mean, because I know them fairly well, but when I first read it, I see the latter, and taking away the insight I have into the person and the way they express themselves, it becomes a clear conclusion that they are saying a wordier version of "Shut up Poopie-head, you're dumb."
This isn't limited to either side of this divide, nor either side of the edumacator/pupil field...
Quote: It isn't a question if these people can be reached, it is a question of if those who have the information want to do so.
Well, if those with information don't wish to work towards educating others, or rehabilitating them, then it may be helpful to those who actually may take a hand in working with the pupils if the peanut gallery limit themselves to constructive critism.
This isn't M&R.
(and thank heavens, that place gets downright gruesome. Edit:This is a reference to certain special persons... one of whom doesn't see a conflict between a loving Diety and horrific torture and genocide) sweatdrop
Also Edit: Now, when someone posts in a thread, it would benefit them to actually read the thread, and take a moment to syncronise with the OP, or at least go for clarification first.
This happens with fairly good regularity, for which I am grateful. 3nodding |
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:53 pm
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:00 pm
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TagraNar It's not just being direct and honest, though. If this has been a major complaint, then people are being direct and honest but hostile and confrontational.
I haven't seen any of the regulars be hostile. I HAVE see them be direct. Those aren't the same things.
In that vein...
American Heritage Dictionary - C
hos·tile
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of an enemy: hostile forces; hostile acts.
2. Feeling or showing enmity or ill will; antagonistic: a hostile remark.
3. Unfavorable to health or well-being; inhospitable or adverse: a hostile climate.
I haven't seen anyone here show enmity, ill will or the like. I've seen them be direct, to the point, and very very blunt. On the very fine line of rudeness is some cases. However, it's not the same thing.
"What you are saying is wrong. Unless you can counter it, via the means of citation and proof, you have no business claiming what you claim" =/= hostile.
"What you are saying is wrong, and only fools would think as you do." = hostile.
TagraNar I'm all for bashing someone's skull in when they have been dealt with repeatedly and still just will not get it or refuse to get it. The problem comes when it happens when we don't even try to educate them first and go straight for the throat, as it were.
The simple fact is that people HAVE been educated as to why they are wrong. In many cases, I have seen citations and the like, explaining why LordFluffytheVampire is extremly wrong.
It seems, as a rule, people ignore the evidence of the discourse, and only here the fact that someone dared to contradict their ideas with facts. That is the problem of the listener, not the speaker.
Fiddlers Green However, if the removal of ignorance is done in such a violent or hostile way that it drives the patient/student away, then the teacher has failed. Adn not only failed, but poisoned the waters of anyone else attempting to teach the same subject to that student.
I'll actually go with you on this one a bit, but I have to say that most of the situations that I have seen involve someone sticking their fingers in their ear, and screaming "No! LALALALA! You can't make me hear anything I don't want to!"
The greatest teacher is nothing without a willing student. If someone is coming here to learn, they should be interested in learning, and in most of the cases I've seen, that is simply not happening.
Fiddlers Green The other side of that coin is that the sledgehammer comes out mayhaps a bit early in some cases... Just because soemone has had to explain something multiple times does not mean the student has heard that lesson before.
I'll grant you this. However, I must ask if you believe both "soft" and "hard" students can be easily handled in such a casual atmosphere as this?
There is a certain limitation to the impact that can be had here, if only due to medium.
Fiddlers Green Kuroiban Case in point being, I suppose, that you can't save everbody, and if you worry about it too much, you won't save anyone at all. This is a prime example of something that enrages me to no end. The belief that something can't be done, just because it is difficult, or nobody has succeeded at it yet. It smacks, to me, of false dilemma, and an unwillingness to put real effort into looking for a solution amiable to everyone. There may be times when not everyone can be saved... not everyone can be helped... but that is on a case by case basis, not a universal constant.
As indicated above, my concearns of limitation are really more related to the medium and to generel circumstance. I'm not suggesting giving up on people out right. It is my true belief, and one of the main reasons I argue as heavily for this as I do, that even the people who leave in a huff are being helped.
You can't unthink a thought (barring outright supression, but then it is only hidden, not destroyed). While people aren't ready to hear something at the time, they still heard/read it. It is still there, and there is a good chance that the lightbulb will go off down the road.
Fiddlers Green Except when the actual insults are levied...
And in a heavy majority of the cases I've seen, the first shots (and often times, second and third shots as well) don't come from the regulars, but the new comers.
Fiddlers Green Kuroiban Sometimes, you can not be subtle, unobtrusive, or delicate when delivering a point to someone. Sometimes, you need bells and whistles and the like. Hell, even a pair of crash cymbells. But is it not worth the effort to at least make the attempt at diplomacy before resorting to nukes?
I do agree with this to a large degree at least. I do think that, in some cases, the bluntness can easily be percieved as rudeness. I honestly do blame that on perception, but I think everyone involved would be helped out with a somewhat gentler introduction.
At the very least, the pace of this guild is quite a bit different then the norm. A lot of Pagan groups have that lovely "You can say anything you want and believe in it and that's perfectly okay!" bullshit mentality, and the transition from falacy to fact can cause some airsickness to be sure.
That is, however, as much of a change as I really feel need be made.
Fiddlers Green Kuroiban Isn't searching for truth thru difficulty a tested, honed, and honored virtue for most Pagan cultures and paths? Not all. It is a major theme in many, but not all.
Which is why I said "most", though I suppose even that may have been a bit of an over genreilization. My bad.
sweatdrop |
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:04 am
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:41 am
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:21 am
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Kuroiban I'll actually go with you on this one a bit, but I have to say that most of the situations that I have seen involve someone sticking their fingers in their ear, and screaming "No! LALALALA! You can't make me hear anything I don't want to!" The greatest teacher is nothing without a willing student. If someone is coming here to learn, they should be interested in learning, and in most of the cases I've seen, that is simply not happening.
That is a fair point.
That does happen.
Oh, and the bolded part is particularly tastey. 3nodding
Bravo.
Quote: I'll grant you this. However, I must ask if you believe both "soft" and "hard" students can be easily handled in such a casual atmosphere as this? There is a certain limitation to the impact that can be had here, if only due to medium.
Also that is fair...
there are problem children as well as those actually seeking enlightenment...
Thus far I have focused on the Educator side of things, which is unfair of me. However, I would rather err on the side of helping those who can be helped, and leaving the noisome and obstinate ceatures, resitant to all forms of reasoning to rolleyes rather than scream .
However, I realze that falsehoods must be decryed. confused
Quote: As indicated above, my concearns of limitation are really more related to the medium and to generel circumstance. I'm not suggesting giving up on people out right. It is my true belief, and one of the main reasons I argue as heavily for this as I do, that even the people who leave in a huff are being helped.
That having been clarified, I am in more agreement...
As has been mentioned from plural sources, this medium is extremely limited.
Which is one of the reasons I'm asking for a bit more restraint from the senoir members, to give a chance to clear up any miscommunications before they lead to somethign worse...
Quote: You can't unthink a thought (barring outright supression, but then it is only hidden, not destroyed). While people aren't ready to hear something at the time, they still heard/read it. It is still there, and there is a good chance that the lightbulb will go off down the road.
While that is true, I would rather not etch the image of the blazing lightbulb, but rather something easier to read by...
The associated pain and fear may make further progress difficult... especially if the person doesn't understand why the reactions they recieved took place.
This may, in all likelihood be the minority... sweatdrop
Quote: And in a heavy majority of the cases I've seen, the first shots (and often times, second and third shots as well) don't come from the regulars, but the new comers.
I know I hold the regulars to a higher standard...
Which is, in all possibility, unfair of me.
Quote: I do agree with this to a large degree at least. I do think that, in some cases, the bluntness can easily be percieved as rudeness. I honestly do blame that on perception, but I think everyone involved would be helped out with a somewhat gentler introduction.
Mayhaps an adendum to the Stickies, or such, explaining what's going on, or giving a bit more warning about certain recurring issues?
Quote: At the very least, the pace of this guild is quite a bit different then the norm. A lot of Pagan groups have that lovely "You can say anything you want and believe in it and that's perfectly okay!" bullshit mentality, and the transition from falacy to fact can cause some airsickness to be sure.
And that I am grateful for.
Keeping the higher bar is definately something to work for, and one of the shining lights of this society.
Quote: That is, however, as much of a change as I really feel need be made.
So, the first strike should come with a nerf bat, rather than a maul... but after the friendly warning, if the person still seems resistant to edumacation, the big guns?
Quote: Which is why I said "most", though I suppose even that may have been a bit of an over genreilization. My bad. sweatdrop
Bah, I was over-reacting anyway.
No worries.
Besides, I shouldn't be too reactive...
That's mostly my personal philosophy anyway. xd |
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:10 pm
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Henry Dorsett Case Aesi The Internet's copy fo the Zohar, for instance. An admirable feat just typing that whole thing, but its host project doesn't offer translation notes, footnoting to the opinions of authorities, nor does it provide the original in any form so that their translation decisions can be considered by their readers. I will actually contest you on the third point. Unless someone can prove that the Hebrew shown on the right-hand column at Zohar.com isn't the correct Hebrew text from the Zohar, the original is in fact available. At least we don't have to worry about translating from Biblical Hebrew, since the Zohar isn't, relatively speaking, that old.
sweatdrop Oops. Forgot about that column. What with the miniscule familiarity I have with Hebrew language, I never paid attention to it.
Third point withdrawn. |
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:31 pm
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missmagpie Actually, people who see the title and guild description most likely know what they're getting in to. You see a lot of people in the introduction thread who admit that they know very little and are eager to learn. There have also been certain circumstances where people who were willing to learn were put off by the reception they recieved.
Stating that you are willing to learn, and BEING willing to learn are really two different things. A lot of people say that, and then become irrational in the face of facts and, well, learning. confused
I will say that it is obviously possiable that someone could be accidentaly shunned by the very stark and blunt end of the hammer here. However, I'm very leary of this guild loosing it's teaching edge.
Fiddlers Green That is a fair point. That does happen. Oh, and the bolded part is particularly tastey. 3nodding Bravo.
Thank you! biggrin
Fiddlers Green Also that is fair... there are problem children as well as those actually seeking enlightenment... Thus far I have focused on the Educator side of things, which is unfair of me. However, I would rather err on the side of helping those who can be helped, and leaving the noisome and obstinate ceatures, resitant to all forms of reasoning to rolleyes rather than scream . However, I realze that falsehoods must be decryed. confused
If you have to err, I suppose that's the side to do it on more often then not. My perspective is to look at things as they are, however, and act accordingly as best as I can figure.
I do realize this can sometimes be a limitation on perception, but I find it the most sensiable way for myself.
Fiddlers Green While that is true, I would rather not etch the image of the blazing lightbulb, but rather something easier to read by... The associated pain and fear may make further progress difficult... especially if the person doesn't understand why the reactions they recieved took place. This may, in all likelihood be the minority... sweatdrop
I'm for the blazing lightbulb, as the humility that comes along with the realization can be more helpful the realization itself.
Fiddlers Green Kuroiban I do agree with this to a large degree at least. I do think that, in some cases, the bluntness can easily be percieved as rudeness. I honestly do blame that on perception, but I think everyone involved would be helped out with a somewhat gentler introduction. Mayhaps an adendum to the Stickies, or such, explaining what's going on, or giving a bit more warning about certain recurring issues?
I honestly think that would be the best idea. I don't think it's fair for the regulars to have to repeat the same disclaimer abour bruised feelings and the like, everytime someone with fluff stuffed up the arse wanders in.
A sticky would be excellent...as well as perhaps a policy that everyone is referenced to said sticky at least once if they starting acting like a damn fool.
Fiddlers Green So, the first strike should come with a nerf bat, rather than a maul... but after the friendly warning, if the person still seems resistant to edumacation, the big guns?
More or less. While I agree that scaring people or unintentionaly atagonizing them is bad, I honestly thing dulling our collective edge is FAR worse, and the greater disservice by far.
I think we've got a lot of people who are very very knowledgeable, and limiting them in the way which they dispencse that knowledge isn't only unfair to them, but to the people on the recieving edge.
I thinking taking a little bit of time to tell people, from the jump that, "We won't bite" is very reasonable and perhaps the only real piece missing from the puzzle. Any more then that, and I feel that we will be deluting the potency of the guild as a whole. |
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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:55 am
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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:44 am
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TeaDidikai LISTEN UP YOU ******** PUSSIES! If you want this guild to be a ******** nice place- you'll have to get Nuri and Deo back. My demands are simple. 1) Stop bitching. This may be Gaia, but that isn't permisison for your mental masturbation to become holy writ. 2) If you want them to come back- you best deliver the THE REAL Elemental Weapon of Ether to my posession. 3) GROW THE ******** UP AND GET OFF MY CASE. Thank you. ~Tea
666.5 Bitches.
** Where, oh where has my Underdog gone? Where, oh where can he be?....** dramallama |
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Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:04 pm
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