|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:55 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:08 pm
 |
|
|
|
themagikat Sirek themagikat okay, my friend, when an infant is baptized into the christian faith only months after birth, how is that teaching? that is forcing. you cant teach a child less than one year old what baptism is and what it entails until they are at least old enough to make a decision that isnt based on what mommy and daddy want. when they can decide for themselves without the aid from anyone else than im happy for them, no matter what path they choose, however i dont like it when i see infants baptized, or children confirmed without knowing what it is. i was confirmed and i had no clue what anything meant until a few years later. it was around eighth grade that i learned most of what xtianity is and it was then i realized it wasnt for me, however i still worked hard to be an xtian because i wanted to make my parents happy. that fell through when i read up on paganism and i realized where i was and where i should stand, so i dont acknowlage anything that happened or any signifigance to it. if its a deadly sin, or i am wrong and im gonna suffer in your hell for it, than so be it. ill accept i was wrong and ill go to whats in store, but as for everyone else, i just want them to be able to make their own decision. Baptism is a Tradition with deep symbolic meaning, it doesn't hurt the child, it doesn't force the child anywhere, it is the Church welcoming the child into the community. It is basically to introduce the community to the child. The Church firmly believes in the African proverb "It takes a village to rasie a child," which is the simplest way to say what im trying to say. It is the Church community's want to support one another in growing up to understand the faith and life in general. And don't you mean first communion? People do not go through Confirmation until their middle teenage years, for the very reason that they need to understand what it means, for it is becoming an adult within the Church. It usually involves Sunday school so that the child can be taught the basics to the faith, such as the ten commandments, some of the stories, whom Jesus is, and what the eucharist represents, etc. Sure the child may have trouble understanding some of it, but through these teachings, and earlier ones from the first couple years of life, the child develops morality, knowing what is right and wrong. Do you think we grow up with an innate understanding of right and wrong? no we don't, our parents teach that to us, which we can see when they teach our younger siblings, At this time they haven't developed operational thought, which are reverible mental processes (ex. for a boy to understand that his brother has a brother, he must be able to reverse the concept of "having a brother.") The ability to grasp ideas and concepts that don't have concrete evidence to prove or disprove are beyond them until around age 11. It is all just preparation so they can tackle the situations when they are ready to tackle them, and if they so desire to leave the faith later, than thats their decision, it is sorrowful for those whom believe wholeheartedly, but we cannot force them to believe, it is of their own freewill (people can try, but shouldn't, most likely they can't accept the fact the other people do have the ability to make their own decisions in life). It is all just preparation for the child's life ahead, so that one day people can choose for themselves. alright. that it what it is supposed to be, not what i went through. i went through confirmation in sixth grade, i went through a year of sunday "school" and learned nothing and as much as i hate to say it, neither did anyone else in that class. second, baptism, while it may be a welcoming, is also the coming to be one of "gods chosen" (in a matter of speaking) i hate to use it again but ill use the catechism to back me 1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated. once baptized, the person belongs to christ, which thus means no matter what they do, they still carry that mark. i believe a person should have the right to decide if they want that mark before they realize it cant be undone or changed. doing it to infants is basically taking away their freedom to be exactly who they want to be, in my opinion. i dont wanna argue in a mean way, i mean for this more to be a conversation.
How does it take away their freedom to be exactly who they want to be? They still have free will, it doesn't make them incapable to make their own decision. Dude, your living proof of that, and so am I, for a good portion of my life I wasn't a very faithful person, I might even say that I was agnostic for a while, for God wasn't a big part of my life. I choose to learn about my religion on my own, I went to a private Catholic high school by my decision, my whole life I was in public school. I choose whom I wanted to be and I am still choosing. Baptism doesn't take away any freedom at all, if anything it gives us freedom, the freedom to choose what we think is right or wrong. The way im reading what you wrote, I think you see it as if it were a scar, and that belonging to Christ means we are a possession of his. Not so, though, it more means that we are part of his family, and that we are to follow his example, to live a life of infinite love. Wanting to erase the mark is like wanting to destroy unconditional love. And sorry if this sounds too sarcastic, but should we also wait for the child to decide if they want to learn how to speak, to know how to use the toilet, to know the difference between right and wrong, to go to school, etc.? If we waited for people too choose on their own, somethings just wouldn't get done. Baptism is just something that helps us grow through faith, and helps us grow as a faith. Tell you one thing, Baptism sounds better than, lets say, circumcision. |
 |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:41 pm
|
|
|
 |
lol, yes, sounds much better than that. we both have the info, its interpreted differently. we have been brought up completely differently. from what i can see, you began as a not-so-faithful guy and eventually grew into christianity on your own. me, on the other hand, i was forced into it (literally, i hate my parents) and i was okay for a while. i started out as one of the most religious people i knew. i did my prayers, went to church, did the sxacraments, read the bible, etc etc etc. but eventually i realized questions werent answered (which ill get to something about that later), answers to my life became deeper questions, and i realized i was alone, or so it seemed. long story short, after a few traumatic moments (well actually a traumatic half a year) i went to paganism and now i feel much better with myself and everything about me, even though im hiding from my parents.
you see it all as free-choice because thats what you had. i see it as forcing it upon the person because thats what i went through, thus its easy to understand that we both see things differently.
the question part i mentioned is one reason i wanna go see a shrink, though im not allowed to. basically, for some reason i have the urge to know everything about everything and if there is a question concerning me or something around me that cant even be barely answered without the word "faith" or something someone may have made up (something that could be contradicted) than it drives me crazy. i dunno. anyways, we still buds?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:10 pm
|
|
|
|
oh, no don't get me wrong, my parents baptized me when I was an infant and I went through first communion, but only because my mother wanted me too, my dad... well he doesn't care about much and is one of those people who cant give emotional support and thinks throwing money at the problem and fix it. We had family problems after that (divorce, etc.) so we went to church less and less, and for a while I was separate from it, heck I didn't even know their was a difference between catholics and christians (I thought i was christian, but im catholic) but didn't practice much, maybe saying i'm agnostic is a bit much, but its close I guess, for lack of a better term. about 4 years ago I came to live with my mom and stepdad, and they asked if I wanted to go to a catholic private school, so I said sure (was kinda tired of public anyways) and I gained a better understanding of what I believed in and became more aquainted with my faith, in which I feel it helped me become a better person through it. Its not wrong to question dude, I'd say its encouraged, because you choose what to believe in, if anything religion is just a foundation, you and whomever you worship, if you worship anything at all, work to build the structure of faith upon it, based on what you learn and what you feel in your heart is true. And were we ever buds? o.O just kidding, yeah were friends, religious debates just fun, well until it becomes a personal attack, which is easy to make it so, especially when statements are said that begin with 'you,' I learned this in one of the religious classes I took, and if you really look at it, it is true... when people say something like "you can't" or "you think" or whatever people feel the urge to defend themselves and what they believe, however when you add "I feel" or "I think" or whatnot to it, it lessens the blow, and tells the person they aren't being accused of anything... it's weird. o.o
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:56 am
|
|
|
|
Brace yourselves I feel a long post brewing..
We weren't even tought another religion in primary school, now, in year nine we don't even have religious education anymore! And even if we did I doubt if we'd learn about pagans and wiccas (The religions I relate most to) or even what "the birth date of christ" actually is (Yule) they didn't bother to change the name of Easter and then they drove the pagan beliefs out of the country and portrayed them as "evil"- I do respect other religions (what I have learnt of them) but what the christians changed and claimed just bugs me like hell..
My Mum isn't religious, she believes in the theory of evolution, the "Big bang" etc. She's not pushy with that type of thing but she laughed at me when I first got into Wicca and stuff, she thinks it fizzled out a while ago, that it was just a phase.. So yeah, I do hide quite a bit from her, she doesn't really know I'm gothic or towards that genre, she doesn't understand or like the music I listen to, she generally doesn't understand me.. Although recently she found the cuts on my arm and is still having a little fit about them.. My brain is melting with the questions..
I haven't seen my dad for a year and a half now, he's a b*****d and that's another story, just ask if you want it told.. But anyway, he was supportive of my "phase" and so was his girlfriend, well she was a wiccan and she deserved better than him.. I think my father was christian but not die-hard but I don't actually know, all I know now is that he caused me much confusion and pain and I wouldn't care if he died tomorrow.
Luckily my mum doesn't know how to use the computer so it's all mine, and if she ever did decide to come on the P.C I made her a user account and my pass is really random so.. I keep all my writings on the computer, she'd schitz if she found them, which is why I'm hiding the book they were originally in.. I don't mind if she sees my doodles anymore as long as they're good. She found my writings and I'd probably flip out on her too, it would end in a screaming match and probably with her hitting me or telling me she'll "slam my head against the wall as hard as I slam the door" (don't you hate it when you're in a stress and doors slam by accident?)
Nobody really understands me, least of all my mother.. I find it funny now though, people tend to be a little scared of me, a while ago I flipped a little (I didn't flip completely either so they will be scared) when a guy (one of the many who hate me so much they feel the urge to shout obscenities down the corridor at me) took my drink, (full bottle) he then took the top off and shouted "Lydia, can you catch?" before throwing it at me.. I only realised when I was stood ten feet away from him, empty bottle in hand and completely drenched that he'd taken the top off.. I then threw him on the nearest table and repeatedly hit him while my friends and other people I didn't know stood around pissing themselves laughing.. I didn't stop until the deputy head grabbed my arm, lucky for me he said he deserved a lot more than that..
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:18 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:22 am
|
|
|
|
my dad reacts kinda oddly, really. he's a pastor of a small church, so i am supposed to be the perfect little christian boy. but i haven't been for the last 5 years. his normal reaction is to ignore it for as along as he can, then go on an outlaw trip where he makes rules against wearing black, listening to music, blah, blah blah.
now that i've moved out, there isn't much he can do other then get upset when i wear make-up and paint my finger nails, being as those are the only signs other then the all black, of what i think.
this doesn't make me not christian, but it makes me not his perfect holy saint that he always wanted, and i also tend to defy the normal christian sterotypes anyhow.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:46 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:49 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:51 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:51 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:53 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:55 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:59 am
|
|
|
|
ive read it, and you can say waht you want and believe what you want, your christian so go for it! but i dont like it anyways, for a few reasons, but mainly because it is a man-written book and the authors can only be guessed at. they dont know the authors of all the books and the ones they think they know are still only theories or educated guesses.
to me, the bible is a cool story back then, it woudl be like someone writing a modern-day Lord of the Rings with real people in it. 1000 years later, if the book was discovered, it would have been merely entertainment to us, but to those in the future it would be a new relgion. thats my opinion.
i know jesus has been proven to have existed, but the fact the entire relgion is based upon a few books compiled into the bible doesnt impress me much.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:02 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reply
