what is the great rite?

[Neko_Bast]

reagun ban

Neko_Bast

Reagun.......would you really stop questioning me if I told you the sacred names of the God and Goddess?

You don't know the sacred names of the God and Goddess.

you still didn't answer my question. biggrin  

[tanwyn_llewellyn]

Neko - you do understand that Wicca is an initiatory religion and that there is no shame in NOT being a part of it? It is quite possible to be a pagan and a witch without being a wiccan.

I'm not wiccan... wouldnt claim to be.  

[CuAnnan]

Neko_Bast

reagun ban

Neko_Bast

Reagun.......would you really stop questioning me if I told you the sacred names of the God and Goddess?

You don't know the sacred names of the God and Goddess.

you still didn't answer my question. biggrin

After you explain how you came by them, sure.  

[Light Chakra]

Oh My Friggin' God People!
You're freaking killing the poor girl.
I mean some of you are trying to do the right thing and give her actual advice, but...
Okay let's break this down into parts...
First I'm going to argue that you don't need to be initiated by a coven in order to be a wiccan. I follow the religion, I study the path, I love my goddess and my god, why would I want to not call myself what I feel I truely am?
Ultimately I AM a wiccan.
Second point FluffyBunny-ism really is about the same as being a 'white lighter' in my mind, they don't take balance into account, but part of it IS doing no research and preaching to the masses.
No I'm not preaching that FluffyBunnies should be allowed to run wild and free in the wind with no pants on, but you do have to take a level of civility with them. You're slaying the poor child before you allow her a chance to think, just because you are more experienced doesn't give you the right to cut down the new people. Give her a pat on the wrist, and explain what she needs. The 'perfect love' part of 'perfect love and perfect trust' is basically saying TURN THE OTHER CHEEK!
I've not been initiated into a coven (I am going to be, but I have to wait 'til I am eighteen, legal reprecussions (sp?)), but I'm still ranting and have lost my thought train... I leave this for now and try to come back to it...
At any rate, I don't know what I'm typing anymore, and am partially tempted to delete it... But I went to all the trouble of typing it so I'm possibly going to make an a** out of myself and submit it anyway whooo hooo! xp  

[Doctrix]

Light Chakra

The 'perfect love' part of 'perfect love and perfect trust' is basically saying TURN THE OTHER CHEEK!

Actually, tolerance is a Christian value. My friends in this Guild may be a bit blunt, but that is only because, when those who are not Wiccan claim to be Wiccan, they are being deceptive and are spreading misinformation. This does not do themselves, or Wicca, or anyone else a lick of good.

Light Chakra

I'm going to argue that you don't need to be initiated by a coven in order to be a wiccan. I follow the religion, I study the path, I love my goddess and my god, why would I want to not call myself what I feel I truely am? Ultimately I AM a wiccan. [...] I've not been initiated into a coven (I am going to be, but I have to wait 'til I am eighteen

I also do not believe you are Wiccan. That does not mean your path is any less fulfilling, or that your Goddess and God are any less important than mine. It just means that you cannot study a path you cannot possibly know, since the true path of Wicca is secret to you at this time. When you get older and become Initiated, you'll look back at yourself and laugh when you find out that what you know about Wicca is only the tip of the iceberg, if anything. Good luck on your path! But don't fool yourself now. It is not becomming of a future Wiccan. I believe that deception, even self-deception can have negative effects on your magic and yourself. Call yourself by your true name, and leave room for the real change you have yet before you. I know this is hard for a teen to truly digest, but you don't know everything! Trust me!  

[Hypomanic Poet]

friggle_moon

they havent even done anything. unless that lil' pm saying dat was bad dont do it again please was my punishment.....

That was called a "Warning" darlin.

Heed it.  

[Light Chakra]

First of all I wouldn't laugh at anyone for something such as a spiritual path especially someone who is 'new' to something, particularly as you seem to believe I am.
Nextly, concidering that I am for the main bit of things a witch as opposed to a wiccan (which we will not debate on this board since it has its own section) I cannot argue with you since we cannot possibly know all that the other knows and are not capable of judging one anothers intelligence or wisdom regarding... really any issue revolving the wicca factor since you are into the whole mystery thing.
But most importantly once again I am rambling and have entirely forgotten the point... Oh wait, the point was that the same thing applies to their arguement. And being a bit of a philosopher I would encourage you to learn some 'tolerance' if I really wanted to bring an issue up against the 'anti-fluff' I think it best to turn your words against you... now if only I remembered what they were, I just had it in my mind.......urg...arg...raaah... I have no idea and I'm not going to delete that since I went to the trouble of typing it out, I have that habit don't I?
Anyway, in five years one learns by far more than one might think, and I randomely think I should include the fact that I dislike those one hundred and someodd rules for the most part... Most of them do not apply to our era, though I must say that about three fourths of them are very clever, even if worded poorly.
Oh, aha, before I forget, I never claimed nor shall I ever claim to know everything. If I knew everything, then life would be rather dull, I thoroughly enjoy learning new things about my craft and my religion, one of the initial reasons I joined both, they sparked my interest and creativity, I love learning about and from them. Rambling, yes, I am once again rambling... Ah the glory of it all...
Now on the back side of that, I must say that if not a smidge on the arrogant side (I'm sure you don't mean to come off in that manner) you seem highly intelligent... That's the odd thing about you mystery tradition people, I don't mean that in a mean way... After you've gotten there you seem to gain this inner... not happy... with people... thing... I don't get that.
While it's true that knowledge and wisdom are power, one might think that knowledge and wisdom would cleanse one of ignorance. Not to say that you are, but I really feel that you people do lack tolerance now that I think about it. Forgiveness is divine, it's something... well nevermind I suppose I've rambled on in little bits and pieces for long enough now...
And before I forget another thing, the whole bit about it not doing a lick of good etc. Might I remind you that you have the most brilliant ability in the world as someone with higher level thinking, as does everyone else in the world... You can disregard the fact, and move on with your life, and it will not hurt you one bit.
No it may not do anyone a lick of good (this coming from your viewpoint of course not mine), but it's not doing any real harm either is it?  

[MST3Kakalina]

Light Chakra

First of all I wouldn't laugh at anyone for something such as a spiritual path especially someone who is 'new' to something, particularly as you seem to believe I am.
Nextly, concidering that I am for the main bit of things a witch as opposed to a wiccan (which we will not debate on this board since it has its own section) I cannot argue with you since we cannot possibly know all that the other knows and are not capable of judging one anothers intelligence or wisdom regarding... really any issue revolving the wicca factor since you are into the whole mystery thing.

Um, that's what communication is for. Explaining what you know to someone else. Also, mysteries are pretty much inextractible from Wicca. You can't take them or leave them.

Quote:

But most importantly once again I am rambling and have entirely forgotten the point... Oh wait, the point was that the same thing applies to their arguement. And being a bit of a philosopher I would encourage you to learn some 'tolerance' if I really wanted to bring an issue up against the 'anti-fluff' I think it best to turn your words against you... now if only I remembered what they were, I just had it in my mind.......urg...arg...raaah... I have no idea and I'm not going to delete that since I went to the trouble of typing it out, I have that habit don't I?

WHOA! No need for hostility there at all. Watch your tone there, pal. That's no way to speak to someone who has treated you with respect and merely tried to help. If you have a problem with how Kudzu spoke to you, you might as well leave the guild right now.

Quote:

Anyway, in five years one learns by far more than one might think, and I randomely think I should include the fact that I dislike those one hundred and someodd rules for the most part... Most of them do not apply to our era, though I must say that about three fourths of them are very clever, even if worded poorly.

If you dislike the Wiccan Laws so much...why do you call yourself Wiccan?

Quote:

Oh, aha, before I forget, I never claimed nor shall I ever claim to know everything. If I knew everything, then life would be rather dull, I thoroughly enjoy learning new things about my craft and my religion, one of the initial reasons I joined both, they sparked my interest and creativity, I love learning about and from them. Rambling, yes, I am once again rambling... Ah the glory of it all...

You're sure acting like you think know everything, or at least a lot: "Anyway, in five years one learns by far more than one might think..." False humility is absolutely contemptible.

Quote:

Now on the back side of that, I must say that if not a smidge on the arrogant side (I'm sure you don't mean to come off in that manner) you seem highly intelligent... That's the odd thing about you mystery tradition people, I don't mean that in a mean way... After you've gotten there you seem to gain this inner... not happy... with people... thing... I don't get that.

I really don't think Kudzu was being arrogant at all. That's a simple misinterpretation of tone, though, which no one can be faulted for. I'd watch it about making generalizations about initiated Wiccans, though.

Quote:

While it's true that knowledge and wisdom are power, one might think that knowledge and wisdom would cleanse one of ignorance. Not to say that you are, but I really feel that you people do lack tolerance now that I think about it. Forgiveness is divine, it's something... well nevermind I suppose I've rambled on in little bits and pieces for long enough now...

It's not "intolerance," it's "critical reasoning." That is what you expose yourself to when you become part of a group that self-identifies as "non-fluffy." Lord knows I've looked like an idiot myself on nonfluffypagans and nonfluffymagic over on LiveJournal. To accuse people of lacking tolerance because they're not automatically nice and encouraging to every fruitcake that comes along claiming to be the Be-All, End-All of paganism is to grossly misunderstand what the term "tolerance" means.

Quote:

And before I forget another thing, the whole bit about it not doing a lick of good etc. Might I remind you that you have the most brilliant ability in the world as someone with higher level thinking, as does everyone else in the world... You can disregard the fact, and move on with your life, and it will not hurt you one bit.
No it may not do anyone a lick of good (this coming from your viewpoint of course not mine), but it's not doing any real harm either is it?

It IS doing a harm. It makes Wiccans (the initiated ones) look silly and reinforces a certain stereotype.

Please LISTEN to what people here tell you, especially if they disagree with you. They are trying to help, not trying to just cut you down. IT'S NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK IF SOMEONE DISAGREES WITH YOU.  

[CuAnnan]

Light Chakra.

I

What is Wicca?

Wicca, as defined by the covens which stem off Gardner's original coven, is a mystery, initiatory, oathbound, orthopraxic religion. What does that mean? Ok, lets assume you know what religion means and take each of the other terms one at a time, shall we?

Mystery. Mystery, in this context, refers to information which is unknown to outsiders. This is a very difficult thing to explain to non-Wiccans as there are two types of mystery in Wicca. There are the experiential mysteries, those that can never be told but can only be lived and there are the secrets passed from Gardner. These secrets are bits of information which you need to be told before the experiential mysteries make any sense. Can you come accross these mysteries on your own? Yes.... technically it's possible. My question in return is, how will you know they're the Wiccan mysteries without verification?

Initiatory. The Wiccan religion is, as I've said, not a revealed religion. Aspects of it are hidden from the masses. This is laid down in the 161 rules of Wicca. Initiation is not a function of exclusivity. Initiation is the proccess of ensuring someone is both fit for and prepared for service of the Lord and Lady. See rule 7 and rules 153 to 155

Oathbound. There are oaths placed upon every initiate not to reveal certain pieces of information including the mysteries, the coven members, the covenstead.

Orthopraxic. We all know that anyone who accepts Jesus is a Christian. That's because Christianity is an orthodoxic religion. Orthodoxic religions are those such that what you believe is what makes you a member of the religion. If you can say the Nicean crede, then you're a Catholic. Wicca, on they other hand, is orthopraxic, meaning that what you believe may well be important but how you practice is what makes you a member.

Wicca was pieced together by Gardner using bits of the Celtic, Slavic and Nordic mythologies, the Acradia, the Trad coven he was initiated into, Crowleyan material, OotGD material and general victorian ceremonial magic. Whether it was in keeping with the mystery religions of old or because Gardner was a paranoid megalomaniac, Gardner did not reveal all of Wicca. He bound much of it in mystery, oath and secrecy. Gardner was the first Wiccan. He was not initiated into the religion, he formed it.

Under the laws of Wicca, a new coven may form, lead by a pair third degree initiates (someone privvy to all of the mysteries) one male and one female, or even just one male or female who is willing to train up a new high priest or high priestess as needed. Since only a third degree priest(ess) can set up a new coven, we have a direct line between all Wiccans and Gardner. For example, Bob is initiated by Suzy who was initiated by Mark who was initiated by Janet who was initiated by Gardner. If you don't have a lineage, you can't have access to the mysteries. If you don't have access to the mysteries, you can't be Wiccan.

Let's now break "Wicca" up into two distinct groups. Wiccans and Heretics "Ecclectic Pagans Calling Themselves Wiccans". All Wiccans can trace a line back their lineage back to Gardner, all Heretics "Ecclectic Pagans Calling Themselves Wiccans" can't. The Wiccans state that Gardner bound them to keep information which the Heretics "Ecclectic Pagans Calling Themselves Wiccans" don't have access to. The Wiccans claim this information is, not only important to but, vital to the practice and understanding of Wicca. Only initiation will reveal these secrets and only Wiccans can initiate.

Can you be a neuro surgeon without going to medical school? No. Can you study medicine on your own? Yes. Will studying medicine and reading medical books ever be enough to make you a neuro surgeon? No. Some people are content studying only holistic medicine. They don't want to be a neuro surgeon.

Can you be a member of the Wiccan religion without initiation? No. Can you study Wicca on your own? Yes. Will studying Wicca and reading books on Wicca ever be enough to make you a wiccan? No. Some people are content spending their entire lives in non-wiccan pagan paths, they don't want wicca.

Can you practice the Wiccan religion without initiation? I'm inclined to go with a half-yes on this one. You can follow aspects of it, you can follow the 161 rules, the rede, take part in coven rituals (or if group rituals aren't your thing) you can do your own. Most covens have certain rituals they allow non-wiccans to attend, partly to let them get a flavour for it and partly to let the coven get a flavour for the non-wiccan(s) in question.

Debunking the standard arguments

"but the word wicca is older than Gardner's religion" and it is. It dropped out of common usage. Now, if you want to refer to yourself as a Wicca, and you practice Anglo Saxon folk magic, by all means do so but prepare to defend that claim as well.

Telling me that "This (a) is what Wicca is, that (b) is what you practice, the two are not the same, therefore you're not wiccan" is equivalent being disrespectful to my path. It's not. It's a simple statement of truth. Saying that you're not wiccan is no more disrespectful to your path than saying you're not a spruce tree.

But I worship the lord and lady. How do you know that? Have they explicitly told you that "I am the Lord of Wicca, as set down by Gerald Gardner" and "I am the Lady of Wicca, as set down by Gerald Gardner"? Have you been to a lineaged coven meeting and conversed with someone who has actualy experienced the Lord and Lady and, most fundamentally, do you know Their names. That's right, the Lord and Lady of Wicca have specific names. Did They tell you what they are?

But says otherwise. Let's see their lineage please. All of the lineaged authors we've had thrown at us inevitably end up supporting the argument I maintain.

Until you can answer all of the questions in that post to the satisfaction of the people with actual Wiccan training: STOP CALLING YOURSELF WICCAN.  

[Light Chakra]

I have been advised by one of my online mentors to leave this guild because you create such a negative environment for some of the people you are "trying to help"... While it may not be a personal attack, you make it feel personal, partially by ganging up, and partially by being as your friend put it 'blunt', it's not blunt it's rude...
However I would like to say some of the things she said to me about mysteries, and I probably won't leave for the fact that some of you guys ARE really smart... it's just too bad that you don't handle anyone who questions your almighty ways well, and I use that with sarcasm, and a smidge of love in there somewhere.
She said that the mysteries are different for each person, lessons that the gods want us to learn in our time here, she says that the mysteries Gardner sent forth weren't the be all end all as most things aren't... Most of the mysteries are simply confirmed by Gardner's.
She says that the biggest mysteries are those that lie beyond this life, the ones that await us in death.
And I'll exclude her short rant about you telling people who are self initiated they aren't wiccan. She was initiated, but she thinks that self initiation is just as valid concidering that it's not the priesstess who is initiating you, it's the gods, during self initiation you are just cutting out the middle man.
So maybe that will clear some things up between us...
And never did I write any of that with violence of tone. Ps. I even wrote in my post that she probably didn't mean to come off as arrogant, which I'm sure she didn't, though I must add that you really are sounding twice as bad because you aparantly didn't pay attention to the parts you didn't want to hear...
Get your retorts out of the way, and you might as well make it your final address on your views about me and my implied 'ignorance' since I'm not going to argue with you any longer on this board or any other.  

[maenad nuri]

I have every confidence that those mysteries are valid and life-affirming, and what-not.

My problem is, though, that they aren't Gardner's. Just as every Mystery isn't the Eleusian Mysteries, they aren't all going to be the Wiccan ones either. And if your stock of mysteries aren't the Wiccan ones, then you aren't Wiccan. And the only legit way of confirming if your experiences are the same as the ones Gardner laid down, is through initation and learning the secrets.

I think our definitions of rudeness are different. But I thank you for looking past that and staying on. That's a real sign of maturity.

I've experienced Mysteries. But I can't tell if they are the Dionysian, the Eleusian or the Wiccan ones since I've never been initatied (I was close though, for the Dionysian and Wiccan, though). Therefore, I've no right to call myself a member of any of those religions.  

[Guardian 0f Heaven]

I am not even an actual wiccan (although as a few here may now this already), i am in affect, learning about the outer-court stuff and what not 'till i am able to find a coven, study more, and be initiated, but i know sort of basically what the great rite is - obvioiusly not all of the details that an initiated wiccan would know, but the basics i suppose you could say...

Sorry if this is off-topic in anyway btw guys sweatdrop ....  

[Doctrix]

Light Chakra

I would encourage you to learn some 'tolerance' if I really wanted to bring an issue up against the 'anti-fluff' I think it best to turn your words against you.

Again, I think that tolerance is a Christian value. It has its place in life, but I believe that it is Christians who are encouraged to give it out blindly to all, whether they have earned it or not, regardless of the context. I find that an amazing feat, and I admire Christians who are called to do such a thing, but I am not inclined to do it myself.

Light Chakra

Anyway, in five years one learns by far more than one might think

Indeed. Imagine how much you will have learned in five more? Especially if you do not shut yourself off to the possibility that you have not yet even begun to learn what Wicca is.

Light Chakra

I dislike those one hundred and someodd rules for the most part... Most of them do not apply to our era, though I must say that about three fourths of them are very clever, even if worded poorly.

Thank you for thinking critically! Perhaps you should not follow a religion whose rules you understand as dislikable?

Light Chakra

[You seem] a smidge on the arrogant side. That's the odd thing about you mystery tradition people [...] After you've gotten there you seem to gain this inner... not happy... with people... thing... [...] One might think that knowledge and wisdom would cleanse one of ignorance. [...] I really feel that you people do lack tolerance.

*thinks quietly about how Light Chakra has just used many of the personal attacks that he claims to dislike* Thank you for judging the path before you. Though judging can be perceived as intolerance, I believe that such judging and intolerance is necessary when you take on personal responsibility. If you perceive that those who have been Initiated into the Mysteries are not the type of people that you wish to become, perhaps a Mystery religion is not for you?

Also, I think it's important to note that I haven't "gotten there." Intitiation isn't something that you achieve and put under your belt to forget about it. It is a new beginning. I'm a newbie. You probably know much more about your practice than I know about the practice of Wicca.

Light Chakra

You can disregard the fact, and move on with your life, and it will not hurt you one bit. No it may not do anyone a lick of good (this coming from your viewpoint of course not mine), but it's not doing any real harm either is it?

If you decide to abandon Wicca, you're right, it might not do a lick of harm. I am trying to help you under the assumption that eventually you might want to learn the Wiccan path. I'm sorry if I made that incorrect assumption. After what I've read from your last post, it appears I might have been mistaken.

Light Chakra

The mysteries Gardner sent forth weren't the be all end all as most things aren't.

True enough, you can live the rest of your life happily without ever knowing the Wiccan Mysteries.

Light Chakra

[My mentor] thinks that self initiation is just as valid concidering that it's not the priesstess who is initiating you, it's the gods, during self initiation you are just cutting out the middle man.

There is another belief that Wiccan Initiation is something more than that, though one can live just as fulfilled a life serving Gods without a Wiccan Initiation.

Light Chakra

You aparantly didn't pay attention to the parts you didn't want to hear.

That's what you and I have in common! smile Goodbye and good luck!  

[CuAnnan]

Light Chakra

I have been advised by one of my online mentors to leave this guild

That sounds an awful lot like a "you guys aren't playing by my rules so I'm taking my toys and going home" routine.

Light Chakra

because you create such a negative environment for some of the people you are "trying to help"...

The placing of trying to help in inverted commas makes it seem like you think we are, in fact, not trying to help.
The idea that you can be wiccan without initiation is ignorant, as in comes from a lack of knowledge. Ignorance is a bad thing and should be treated as such. When someone is wilfully ignorant, no amount of nice talking will do the trick. You are operating under a false premise, the idea that this thread is the only one Neko Bast has been wilfully ignorant on. It is not. She has been ignorant elsewhere and, when confronted with facts she has countered them with ill-informed opinions.

Light Chakra

While it may not be a personal attack, you make it feel personal, partially by ganging up, and partially by being as your friend put it 'blunt', it's not blunt it's rude...

Manners have their place, but when someone is being wilfully ignorant they are being rude.
Someoene claiming to be Wiccan in a group with at least two lineaged Degree holders is being rude by claiming the title of a religion they are not entitled to. This claim undermines the work done by the lineaged holders by claiming that the work they have done is unneccesary, thus making liars out of their teachers.

Light Chakra

She said that the mysteries are different for each person,

Contested on the grounds that the sacred names of Aradia and Cernunnoss are not sacred.
Contested on the grounds that not all of the mysteries are experiential, some are knowledge.

Light Chakra

lessons that the gods want us to learn in our time here, she says that the mysteries Gardner sent forth weren't the be all end all as most things aren't...

It's Gardner's religion.
He created it as a modern pagan path.
There are others.
If you don't want to learn his mysteries, and thusly become a part of his religion, don't. But don't claim that you can be a part of his religion without the mysteries he said were important.

Light Chakra

Most of the mysteries are simply confirmed by Gardner's.

That's a statement you are not in a position to make.

Light Chakra

She says that the biggest mysteries are those that lie beyond this life, the ones that await us in death.

This falls under the same argument.
I tend to agree with it, however it's not a valid argument.

Light Chakra

And I'll exclude her short rant about you telling people who are self initiated they aren't wiccan.

How about I include the rant of a lineaged 3rd Degree High Priestess who has had two successful and long lasting covens under her charge as to why self-initiation is, as she put it "absolute bollox"
I know for a fact that she is a lineaged Wiccan.
How can you know that about someone who's interactions have all been on line.

In short, appealing to authority is a fallacy and that's what you're doing here.

Light Chakra

She was initiated, but she thinks that self initiation is just as valid concidering that it's not the priesstess who is initiating you, it's the gods, during self initiation you are just cutting out the middle man.

And the body of knowledge based mysteries.
And the lineage.
And the religion.



Edit:
I posted my info dump earlier.
You have not contested any of it.
Therefore, according to the standard rules of debate, you are accepting it as fact.
Just thought I'd put that out there into the Ether.

Speaking of which.
What is the elemental weapon of Ether?
What is the significance of the five fold kiss?
What are the sacred names of Aradia and Cernunnos?
What is the tradition of Wicca you "initiatied" yourself into?  

[Neko_Bast]

reagun ban

It's Gardner's religion.
He created it as a modern pagan path.
There are others.
If you don't want to learn his mysteries, and thusly become a part of his religion, don't. But don't claim that you can be a part of his religion without the mysteries he said were important.

lol.....wow. ^-^ You make it seem as if he is the Wiccan Pope.......

reagun ban

How about I include the rant of a lineaged 3rd Degree High Priestess who has had two successful and long lasting covens under her charge as to why self-initiation is, as she put it "absolute bollox"
I know for a fact that she is a lineaged Wiccan.
How can you know that about someone who's interactions have all been on line.

goinge by your agument.....how to we know you were really initiated, this is the net after all.............