Baptism and Converting

[TeaDidikai]

I think that there is a chance he didn't understand the Rite and what the Canon says about it.  

[Recursive Paradox]

TeaDidikai

Recursive Paradox

Ah okay. Even the Aspecthood one? o_O

While debatable on the semantics- as is likely for any cross-tradition linguistic issues, yeah- even Aspecthood.

Interesting. I may have things in common with Gnostics that are worth exploring then.  

[Bastemhet]

rmcdra

It will differ based on denomination because different denominations have different methods of exegesis of the Bible and different understandings of the nature of God. Some denominations do still believe in the "fire and brimstone" view.

+Boxy quote

Hey, thanks for this. That was very interesting. I remember reading something about the place where they burn trash, but didn't realize how much more there was.  

[TeaDidikai]

Bastemhet

Hey, thanks for this. That was very interesting. I remember reading something about the place where they burn trash, but didn't realize how much more there was.

I swear, I don't understand why Pagans get all butthurt over being told they are going to hell.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Bastemhet

Hey, thanks for this. That was very interesting. I remember reading something about the place where they burn trash, but didn't realize how much more there was.

I swear, I don't understand why Pagans get all butthurt over being told they are going to hell.

Yep. I did have the idea that hell is just being without God, but I wanted to make sure. smile

Although now this idea that the OT God being different from the NT God has got me curious, because this is not the first time I've heard it, but I figure the first time I heard it the person just did not want to ally themselves with a vengeful, murderous god. Would anyone care to share their thoughts on this?

Sorry if I'm derailing the thread too much. Let me know, and I'll make a new topic or take it to pm.  

[Gho the Girl]

Bastemhet

What is hell?

Hell is Disconnect. When we die, whatever disconnect we have unbecomes.  

[Namikikyo]

TeaDidikai

I think that there is a chance he didn't understand the Rite and what the Canon says about it.

I asked again and he says the same thing. Plus, I really don't think he would lie to me.

Then.. I guess it wasn't valid, especially with no Oath involved? Or maybe this is something only our church offered?

 

[Namikikyo]

Bastemhet

Sorry if I'm derailing the thread too much. Let me know, and I'll make a new topic or take it to pm.

No no no, I don't mind you using this thread. ^ ^ I also enjoy learning what you're learning.

 

[TeaDidikai]

Namikikyo

I asked again and he says the same thing. Plus, I really don't think he would lie to me.

I'm not saying he's lying, I'm saying he is mistaken. People make mistakes about theology all the time. Sometime you should ask Cu about how many Irish Catholics think the Sacrament of Communion is symbolic.

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Then.. I guess it wasn't valid, especially with no Oath involved? Or maybe this is something only our church offered?

If it is invalid, it is because of a lack of intent on your father's part.  

[Namikikyo]

TeaDidikai

Namikikyo

I asked again and he says the same thing. Plus, I really don't think he would lie to me.

I'm not saying he's lying, I'm saying he is mistaken. People make mistakes about theology all the time. Sometime you should ask Cu about how many Irish Catholics think the Sacrament of Communion is symbolic.

Do these mistakes mean anything is less valid? Or just that the intent is obscured?

Never did Communion, thought it was a bit boring.

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Then.. I guess it wasn't valid, especially with no Oath involved? Or maybe this is something only our church offered?

If it is invalid, it is because of a lack of intent on your father's part.

That is something to think over.

I feel that what he has told is true and will have to ask the man who baptized me about it as well, if the intent was to merely bring me up till age ready then set me free then I'm going to say it was either invalid or just a different way.

EDIT: Tomorrow he is going to walk me through the process and make me read "The Book of Common Prayer" which is a book on Episcopal ways and show me exactly what he means because he is tired of explaining everything to me. xD

I will quote the book if needed and I'm actually glad to be learning a few things about the religion I had left. My Father also likes that I have taken an interest regardless of the reasons.

Baptism=/=Christianing, My bad.  

[TeaDidikai]

Namikikyo

Do these mistakes mean anything is less valid? Or just that the intent is obscured?

Never did Communion, thought it was a bit boring.

His intention to submit you to the rite is what makes the bond valid.

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That is something to think over.

I feel that what he has told is true and will have to ask the man who baptized me about it as well, if the intent was to merely bring me up till age ready then set me free then I'm going to say it was either invalid or just a different way.

I would be willing to argue that if they are not engaging the sacrament with it's intent, they aren't offering valid sacraments.

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EDIT: Tomorrow he is going to walk me through the process and make me read "The Book of Common Prayer" which is a book on Episcopal ways and show me exactly what he means because he is tired of explaining everything to me. xD

I will quote the book if needed and I'm actually glad to be learning a few things about the religion I had left. My Father also likes that I have taken an interest regardless of the reasons.

Baptism=/=Christianing, My bad.

I can quote it.

Book of Common Prayer, Page 301, Infants and Younger Children

...the candidates who are unable to answer for themselves are presented
individually by their Parents and Godparents, as follows

Parents and Godparents
I present N. to receive the Sacrament of Baptism.

When all have been presented the Celebrant asks the parents and
godparents

Will you be responsible for seeing that the child you present
is brought up in the Christian faith and life?

Parents and Godparents :I will, with God's help.

Celebrant: Will you by your prayers and witness help this child to grow into the full stature of Christ?

Parents and Godparents: I will, with God's help.

Then the Celebrant asks the following questions of the candidates who
can speak for themselves, and of the parents and godparents who speak
on behalf of the infants and younger children

Question: Do you renounce Satan and all the spiritual forces of wickedness that rebel against God?
Answer: I renounce them.
Question: Do you renounce the evil powers of this world which corrupt and destroy the creatures of God?
Answer: I renounce them.
Question: Do you renounce all sinful desires that draw you from the love of God?
Answer: I renounce them.
Question: Do you turn to Jesus Christ and accept him as your Savior?
Answer: I do.
Question: Do you put your whole trust in his grace and love?
Answer: I do.
Question: Do you promise to follow and obey him as your Lord?
Answer: I do.

...

It goes on with similar things, there is also room for Confirmation and Communion as well, some more prayers are said and more promises offered to help those in the Faith.

The water is blessed thus:

Book of Common Prayer, page 306

We thank you, Almighty God, for the gift of water.
Over it the Holy Spirit moved in the beginning of creation.
Through it you led the children of Israel out of their bondage
in Egypt into the land of promise. In it your Son Jesus
received the baptism of John and was anointed by the Holy
Spirit as the Messiah, the Christ, to lead us, through his death
and resurrection, from the bondage of sin into everlasting life.

We thank you, Father, for the water of Baptism. In it we are
buried with Christ in his death. By it we share in his
resurrection. Through it we are reborn by the Holy Spirit.
Therefore in joyful obedience to your Son, we bring into his
fellowship those who come to him in faith, baptizing them in
the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.


At the following words, the Celebrant touches the water

Now sanctify this water, we pray you, by the power of your
Holy Spirit, that those who here are cleansed from sin and
born again may continue for ever in the risen life of Jesus
Christ our Savior.
...

The Baptism takes place with the following words:

N., I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son,
and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

The Book of Common Prayer, 308

When this action has been completed for all candidates, the Bishop or
Priest, at a place in full sight of the congregation, prays over them, saying

Let us pray.

Heavenly Father, we thank you that by water and the Holy
Spirit you have bestowed upon these your servants the
forgiveness of sin, and have raised them to the new life of
grace. Sustain them, O Lord, in your Holy Spirit. Give them
an inquiring and discerning heart, the courage to will and to
persevere, a spirit to know and to love you, and the gift of joy
and wonder in all your works. Amen.

Then the Bishop or Priest places a hand on the person's head, marking
on the forehead the sign of the cross [using Chrism if desired] and saying to each one

N., you are sealed by the Holy Spirit in Baptism and marked
as Christ's own for ever. Amen.

Or this action may be done immediately after the administration of the
water and before the preceding prayer.

When all have been baptized, the Celebrant says

Let us welcome the newly baptized.


To him, to you, and to the Holy Spirit, be all honor and
glory, now and for ever. Amen.

Note that last part. wink
There can be additional directions and the like, but you get the idea.  

[Fiddlers Green]

rmcdra

CCC

1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.[69]

You have to be at baptized before you can be excommunicated.

I meant more whether it meant that those excommunicated could still perform baptisms. However, the referenced documents clarified the Catholic perspective sufficiently. Agree or not, I got the idea, thank you.

TeaDidikai

I can understand why it would imply such, but when taken along side the Vatican II papers (citation available upon request) it's speaking more to the universal nature of the Faith, rather than an attempt to own spiritual truth, hence why they don't extend that same social status.

The assumption is basically that if the intent is present within a spiritual act- if someone is honestly seeking the god Yeshua taught of (mileage may vary on that wink ) that the Church itself isn't in a position to tell someone that their sincere attempt at finding their god is wrong and that they will stand on Scripture to those ends.

I see, that's very kind, in a patronizing sort of way. xd

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To address 1121 regarding the three sacraments...
Do the 3 not confer the different levels of affiliation?
Baptism: a positive disposition for grace
Confirmation: a promise and guarantee of divine protection
Holy Orders: a vocation to divine worship and to the service of the Church

I've got an appointment with the local Bishop to explain this to me fully, however, that was sorta the impression that I got from my initial inquiries.

How it is expressed according to the Father I talked to at St. Martain's.

So does that not imply that the vocation to worship and serve is limited to the ordained, protection given to the confirmed, but the baptized only are in a positive disposition?

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Had a friend who as a last resort pissed in the Holy Water.

Oh that's just bad...
Did it work? sweatdrop  

[TeaDidikai]

Fiddlers Green

I see, that's very kind, in a patronizing sort of way. xd

Meh. I see it as being in line with what Yeshua taught and have more of a "Well it's about time" kinda attitude.

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So does that not imply that the vocation to worship and serve is limited to the ordained, protection given to the confirmed, but the baptized only are in a positive disposition?

Nope. All three are issued or reaffirmed at each Sacrament, but the physical actions one does changes. Sorry if I worded it poorly.

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Oh that's just bad...
Did it work? sweatdrop

It worked.

You have to understand she did everything she humanly could prior to that. Asked to be allowed to leave, started messing with other sacraments- that was literally the last resort for her.  

[Namikikyo]

There's no way out of that. Looks like I have to start taking down my alters and such and apologize to all the deities I worshipped..

Um, I guess I can start reading Gho's pathway thread and anyone else's. That's a good start.

Thank you, Tea. Your information was very helpful.

I'm still going to let my Father read it to me and point this out to him just to see what he'll say.