Suicide

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

zz1000zz

I disagree. I do not think we have any reason to believe God has any plan for our lives.

Except for the fact that if He didn't it would be a total change in His nature as understood from the Bible. confused I don't know, I can't wrap my head around any other interpretation- I'm really trying to understand your point of view but it's not getting in. sweatdrop

Quote:

I certainly have no intention of trying to live by some unknown plan dictated to me by the whims of other people.

Not dictated to you- it's what you intperpret for yourself through communing with God and getting into His Word.  

[zz1000zz]

Fushigi na Butterfly

zz1000zz

I disagree. I do not think we have any reason to believe God has any plan for our lives.

Except for the fact that if He didn't it would be a total change in His nature as understood from the Bible. confused I don't know, I can't wrap my head around any other interpretation- I'm really trying to understand your point of view but it's not getting in. sweatdrop

The problem is you keep saying things about God, but you do not give any reference for them. The one time you discussed anything actually from the Bible was when you discussed Job, and God had practically nothing to do with that.

You say God has a plan, vague though it may be, for all people. You cannot qualify this plan to provide some scope for it. You cannot suggest what the plan is, nor any way to know what it entails. My "point of view" is I do not see any reason to believe a word you have said.

Fushigi na Butterflly

Quote:

I certainly have no intention of trying to live by some unknown plan dictated to me by the whims of other people.

Not dictated to you- it's what you intperpret for yourself through communing with God and getting into His Word.

If I were to listen to you, this would not be the case. If I wanted to commit suicide, I could not without disregarding your comments. If what you have said in this topic prevented me from committing suicide, I would be letting your whims dictate my life.

The Bible never condemns suicide, despite suicide coming up a number of times. Half of dozen different people commit suicide in the Bible. Several more do so indirectly, and several ask God to kill them. Despite this, suicide is never condemned. We know suicide is not a sin, so I cannot see any biblical reason to condemn it.  

[Xandris]

zz1000zz

We know suicide is not a sin, so I cannot see any biblical reason to condemn it.

Do you think that suicide falls under 'thou shalt not kill'? I know that we've all agreed before that there are exceptions to this, but is suicide one of them?  

[Priestley]

Xandris

zz1000zz

We know suicide is not a sin, so I cannot see any biblical reason to condemn it.

Do you think that suicide falls under 'thou shalt not kill'? I know that we've all agreed before that there are exceptions to this, but is suicide one of them?

I say yes, because the exceptions to this are made clear in circumstances where God has stated it's okay to kill, as in war. This convinces me that the particular commandment refers to murder.  

[zz1000zz]

There is no need to make "exceptions." "Thou shalt not kill" obviously cannot be taken literally. People kill all the time. Animals, bugs, plants, and bacteria are killed on a constant basis.

Usually the commandment is understood as, "Though shalt not murder." Suicide is not murder, so it would not be prohibited.  

[Priestley]

zz1000zz

There is no need to make "exceptions." "Thou shalt not kill" obviously cannot be taken literally. People kill all the time. Animals, bugs, plants, and bacteria are killed on a constant basis.

Usually the commandment is understood as, "Though shalt not murder." Suicide is not murder, so it would not be prohibited.

Thank you for rephrasing.  

[mezula]

zz1000zz

The Bible never condemns suicide, despite suicide coming up a number of times. Half of dozen different people commit suicide in the Bible. Several more do so indirectly, and several ask God to kill them. Despite this, suicide is never condemned. We know suicide is not a sin, so I cannot see any biblical reason to condemn it.

This is a very very interesting topic. It peaked my curiosity enough to find out the Hebrew translation of the 10 commandments about murder. Whether one condemns murder, or otherwise, does not change the way God thinks about murder (note the quote about the KJV translation of the Hebrew word "murder" to "kill") .

So if God does not want us to commit murder, would that only include murdering others? If, say for the sake of argument that the bible is true about everything belonging to God, including our lives, then does it not necessarily follow that killing oneself, ie taking the life that God has given, constitute a sin ?

IMO, I think suicide is a very selfish act. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's "cowardly"... cos when i was younger, i contemplated, but when it came down to I couldn't do it.... yes, i chickened out, thank God. I say it's selfish because at that instance, no one (not including the people who love you) matter any more but yourself. So what's harder? to continue living and endure the pain? or terminate one's own life and let the people around you suffer your actions? (*thought*)


BTW, who are the half dozen different people who commited suicide in the bible? i can only think of Judas, who took his own life. (curious)

I think condemnation aside, God does not want anyone of us to take our own lives because there's no chance of redemption at that point.

Quote:

Hebraic Insight… ( from http://www.levitt.com/hebrew/commandments.html )

The Jewish sages note that the word “ratsakh” applies only to illegal killing (e.g., premeditated murder or manslaughter) — and is never used in the administration of justice or for killing in war. Hence the KJV translation as “thou shalt not kill” is too broad.

Since man is made in the image of God, his life is infinitely precious — only God Himself has the right to give and take life. In the Mishnah it is written, “Why was only one man (i.e., Adam) created by God? — to teach that whoever takes a single life destroys thereby a whole world.”

But murder can be figurative as well as literal. The Talmud notes that shaming another publicly is like murder, since the shame causes the blood to leave the face. Moreover, gossip or slander are considered murderous to the dignity of man. The Pirkei Avot (Ethics of the Fathers) states, “The evil tongue slays three persons: the utterer of the evil, the listener, and the one spoken about…” The Lord Jesus also linked the ideas of our words and attitudes with murder (see Matt. 15:19).

 

[Priestley]

mezula

zz1000zz

The Bible never condemns suicide, despite suicide coming up a number of times. Half of dozen different people commit suicide in the Bible. Several more do so indirectly, and several ask God to kill them. Despite this, suicide is never condemned. We know suicide is not a sin, so I cannot see any biblical reason to condemn it.

This is a very very interesting topic. It peaked my curiosity enough to find out the Hebrew translation of the 10 commandments about murder. Whether one condemns murder, or otherwise, does not change the way God thinks about murder (note the quote about the KJV translation of the Hebrew word "murder" to "kill").

We've already established this.

mezula

So if God does not want us to commit murder, would that only include murdering others? If, say for the sake of argument that the bible is true about everything belonging to God, including our lives, then does it not necessarily follow that killing oneself, ie taking the life that God has given, constitute a sin?

The nature of homicide is that one civilian kills another civilian with intent to kill, i.e. murders. Suicide relates to self rather than another person, therefore is not murder.

mezula

IMO, I think suicide is a very selfish act. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's "cowardly"... cos when i was younger, i contemplated, but when it came down to I couldn't do it.... yes, i chickened out, thank God. I say it's selfish because at that instance, no one (not including the people who love you) matter any more but yourself. So what's harder? to continue living and endure the pain? or terminate one's own life and let the people around you suffer your actions? (*thought*)

It has been established in this thread that suicide is selfish only because it relates to the self (as evidenced by the definition of the prefix 'sui-'). It has already been argued that it is the selfishness of those surrounding the suicidal person to want that person to continue suffering and not want to suffer the loss of the relationship with the suicidal person. If it were sinful to be selfish, Jesus would never have reiterated Leviticus 19:18,34 when he said "love your neighbour as yourself" in Matthew 19:19,22:39, Mark 12:31,33 and Luke 10:27.

A suicidal person should never have added burdens of guild placed on his/her shoulders. It is a difficult enough job fixing the broken logic in a suicidal person's mind and teaching him/her to think positively about himself/herself without added obstacles like misplaced guilt and reliance on other people's opinions of him/her.

mezula

BTW, who are the half dozen different people who commited suicide in the bible? i can only think of Judas, who took his own life. (curious)

Samson springs to mind. He ended up killing himself when he pulled the pillars of the temple down on top of himself and the Phillistines.

mezula

I think condemnation aside, God does not want anyone of us to take our own lives because there's no chance of redemption at that point.

Redemption is entirely up to God.

mezula

Hebraic Insight… ( from http://www.levitt.com/hebrew/commandments.html)

The Jewish sages note that the word “ratsakh” applies only to illegal killing (e.g., premeditated murder or manslaughter) — and is never used in the administration of justice or for killing in war. Hence the KJV translation as “thou shalt not kill” is too broad.

Since man is made in the image of God, his life is infinitely precious — only God Himself has the right to give and take life. In the Mishnah it is written, “Why was only one man (i.e., Adam) created by God? — to teach that whoever takes a single life destroys thereby a whole world.”

But murder can be figurative as well as literal. The Talmud notes that shaming another publicly is like murder, since the shame causes the blood to leave the face. Moreover, gossip or slander are considered murderous to the dignity of man. The Pirkei Avot (Ethics of the Fathers) states, “The evil tongue slays three persons: the utterer of the evil, the listener, and the one spoken about…” The Lord Jesus also linked the ideas of our words and attitudes with murder (see Matt. 15:19).

Thank you for shedding more light on the translation.  

[zz1000zz]

mezula

BTW, who are the half dozen different people who commited suicide in the bible? i can only think of Judas, who took his own life. (curious)

Abimelech, Saul, Saul's armor bearer, Ahithophel, Zimri and Judas would be six. Samson and Jesus can also be considered.  

[Xandris]

zz1000zz

Suicide is not murder, so it would not be prohibited.

murder: the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice, aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation.

In the eyes of some people, suicide can be considered murder. It's something I've constantly wondered since my own childhood. Why ISN'T suicide considered murder?  

[Priestley]

Xandris

zz1000zz

Suicide is not murder, so it would not be prohibited.

murder: the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice, aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation.
In the eyes of some people, suicide can be considered murder. It's something I've constantly wondered since my own childhood. Why ISN'T suicide considered murder?

Are you sure you're not referring to assisted suicide? That is quite different from suicide. Suicide still doesn't fit the definition you gave above.  

[Xandris]

Priestley

Are you sure you're not referring to assisted suicide? That is quite different from suicide. Suicide still doesn't fit the definition you gave above.

"aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation."

Almost nobody commits suicide on a whim. It's contemplated, thought about for months, maybe even years, and planned very carefully. In fact, the US wanted to pass a law a few years back that would penalize people who attempted suicide and survived, putting them on trial for attempted murder.  

[Priestley]

Xandris

Priestley

Are you sure you're not referring to assisted suicide? That is quite different from suicide. Suicide still doesn't fit the definition you gave above.

"aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation."

Almost nobody commits suicide on a whim. It's contemplated, thought about for months, maybe even years, and planned very carefully. In fact, the US wanted to pass a law a few years back that would penalize people who attempted suicide and survived, putting them on trial for attempted murder.

I'll point you to the definition you gave and emphasise the relevant qualifier:

Xandris

murder: the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice, aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation.

The issue isn't the aforethought but is that the victim is a human being other than the murderer.  

[Fushigi na Butterfly]

zz1000zz

Fushigi na Butterfly

zz1000zz

I disagree. I do not think we have any reason to believe God has any plan for our lives.

Except for the fact that if He didn't it would be a total change in His nature as understood from the Bible. confused I don't know, I can't wrap my head around any other interpretation- I'm really trying to understand your point of view but it's not getting in. sweatdrop

The problem is you keep saying things about God, but you do not give any reference for them. The one time you discussed anything actually from the Bible was when you discussed Job, and God had practically nothing to do with that.

I can't really point out anything specific because I'm attempting to reference the entire Bible. If the Bible is God's Word and also tells the story of His plan for humanity, then I can't really just pick and choose verses. Now, I might be using some faulty logic here, in saying that God has a plan for everyone because everyone mentioned in the Bible had a plan for their lives according to God, but it could just as easily be said that only the people who had plans for their lives from God get mentioned in the Bible. There was a plan for the lives and descendants of Adam and Eve that end with Jesus Christ. There was a plan for Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and Jacob's sons and daughter. There was a plan for Moses. There was a plan for Ruth, for Noah and his family, for Job (and you can't say God had nothing to do with it- God gave Satan permission). There was a plan for Jesus. Now, bear with me here, cuz here is where my thinking gets, admittedly, a little convoluted. If the children of Israel are God's people, and we are all God's children by adoption through the sacrifice of Jesus, that essentially sets us on the same level as them. We are God's people- we are relatives, descendants, children of Israel, claimed as God's own inheritance. If God, as He proclaims throughout the entire Old Testament, has "plans to prosper [Israel] and not to harm [them], plans to give [them] hope and a future" (Jeremiah 29:11), down to the last individual, why should that plan exclude us?

There is no way to know what that plan is. The Hebrews had no idea what God's plan for them was when they were slaves of Pharaoh. All they knew was that God did have a plan for them. God's plan for everyone is different, and the only way I or you or anyone will ever know what that plan is, is to pray for direction from God, and ask for the guidance necessary to bring it to fruition.  

[zz1000zz]

Fushigi na Butterfly, it should be pretty clear now that what you are saying is just a personal belief, and there is no way to demonstrate it. Not liking suicide is understandable. Discouraging suicide is too. However, it is wrong to say, "God opposes suicide" unless you can show it.

It is much better to tell suicidal individuals about the good things they have than to tell them to live because other people do not want them to die. They need a reason to live, not a reason to not die.